Let's Talk About Hell

[Timothew]

 

[SkyWriting]

Jesus went to hell for 3 days, so was he burned in a fire torture pit too? Of course not.

Not if there is no torture pit. But if the "torment" in Hell is due to having ones Sin exposed for all to see, then Jesus could visit without any torment or fire or even slight indigestion.
Thanks for the added insight.

 

[SkyWriting]

G931 βάσανος basanos
Thayer Definition:
1) a touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
2) the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth
3) torture, torment, acute pains
3a) of the pains of a disease
3b) of those in hell after death
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: perhaps remotely from the same as G939 (through the notion of going to the bottom)
Citing in TDNT: 1:561, 96​

I see nothing indicating an external blowtorch under anyone's rear end.- Sky

Smoke and mirrors! Now you see it now you don't! Neither the post I was responding to nor my response had anything to do with this answer. I was responding to your claim that, "ALL mentions of "Torment" can be understood as "Sadness in response to the Truth" or "Anguish over decisions made"". The word translated torment, defined above, does NOT mean "sadness," or "anguish!"

No matter how you try to twist the evidence, all the possible definitions mean physical NOT mental pain! If the writer had intended to say anguish, sadness, etc. there are specific Greek words for that.

Then we'll go through the evidence, because you are afraid to.

I say "ALL mentions of "Torment" can be understood as "Sadness in response to the Truth" or "Anguish over decisions made"

Lets check that with #1
1) a touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal

1)a touchstone...used to test...purity..

It sounds to me like a mental test for Hell itself here. (I predict sadness & anguish here.)

2) the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth

Same thing. A device or a test. A Truth serum of sorts. (I predict sadness & anguish here.)

3) torture, torment, acute pains
Now I DO see the word "torture" here but it is augmented by two types of internal pain, torment & Acute pain.
3a) of the pains of a disease
(I predictanguish & sadness here.)
3b) of those in hell after death
(I predict sadness & anguish here.)

I agree that this word goes beyond normal sadness. But that's to be expected if you have your soul laid bare before the Light of the Everlasting God forever and ever with no clothes to cover you up or rocks to crawl under.
My "Sadness in response to the Truth" or "Anguish over decisions made" fits just fine.

I'm not sure what kind of pain you had in mind? God will resurrect the dead Sinners back into physical bodies just so there is something to burn for eternity? I missed those verses. Let me know where I can find that.

 

[Der Alte]

G931 βάσανος basanos
Thayer Definition:
1) a touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
2) the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth
3) torture, torment, acute pains
3a) of the pains of a disease
3b) of those in hell after death
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: perhaps remotely from the same as G939 (through the notion of going to the bottom)
Citing in TDNT: 1:561, 96​

I see nothing indicating an external blowtorch under anyone's rear end.- Sky

Half right! Nobody has said any such thing!

Then we'll go through the evidence, because you are afraid to.

Nothing to go through! Just another follower of a false religion making up his own meanings for scripture!

I say ALL mentions of "Torment" can be understood as "Sadness in response to the Truth" or "Anguish over decisions made"

Lets check that with #1

1) a touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal

1) a touchstone...used to test...purity..

It sounds to me like a mental test for Hell itself here. (I predict sadness & anguish here.)

Look at evidence! Ignore evidence! Make up own esoteric meaning for the actual words written! Nothing in def. #1 says anything about esoteric, spiritual meanings! A literal "touchstone" to test literal "gold" or "silver." This literally tests the purity of literal gold or silver by the color of the mark left on the literal "stone."

The additional meanings were created by the originating society. Nothing in any grammar or lexicon allows for every person to make up their own meaning to suit their assumptions/presuppositions!

2) the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth

Same thing. A device or a test. A Truth serum of sorts. (I predict sadness & anguish here.)

Right! Same thing ignore the evidence from hundreds of years of writings and make up your own esoteric, "spiritual" meaning. Scripture may have "spiritual" meanings, lexicons don't!

3) torture, torment, acute pains.

Now I DO see the word "torture" here but it is augmented by two types of internal pain, torment & Acute pain.

More phony made up meanings! This definition says nothing about "augmentation" or "two types of internal pain!" Once again scripture has spiritual meanings, lexicons do not!

3a) of the pains of a disease.

I predict anguish & sadness here.)

Still making up your own esoteric, "spiritual" meanings where none exist. Here are the words for sadness and anguish!

G4768 στυγνάζω stugnazō stoog-nad'-zo

From the same as G4767; to render gloomy, that is, (by implication) glower (be overcast with clouds, or sombreness of speech): - lower, be sad.

G4730 στενοχωρία stenochōria sten-okh-o-ree'-ah

From a compound of G4728 and G5561; narrowness of room, that is, (figuratively) calamity: - anguish, distress.​

These are the words the NT writers would have used if they had meant "sadness" and "anguish!"

3b) of those in hell after death

(I predict sadness & anguish here.)

I agree that this word goes beyond normal sadness. But that's to be expected if you have your soul laid bare before the Light of the Everlasting God forever and ever with no clothes to cover you up or rocks to crawl under.
My "Sadness in response to the Truth" or "Anguish over decisions made" fits just fine.

Nothing in any verse and certainly nothing in the definition says anything about "soul laid bare [ . . . ] no clothes to cover you up or rocks to crawl under." Sadness and anguish? See definitions above.

I'm not sure what kind of pain you had in mind? God will resurrect the dead Sinners back into physical bodies just so there is something to burn for eternity? I missed those verses. Let me know where I can find that.

Two posts, back to back, twenty eight passages spoken by Jesus in the order they occur in the N.T., addressing eternal punishment. Click Link!

Previous post, the Jewish view of eternal punishment of the unrighteous. Click Link!

Previous post the early church and eternal punishment. Click Link!

Previous post citing the Talmud the teaching of Hillel and Shammai in Israel at the time of Jesus on eternal punishment. Click Link!

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Not if there is no torture pit. But if the "torment" in Hell is due to having ones Sin exposed for all to see, then Jesus could visit without any torment or fire or even slight indigestion.
Thanks for the added insight.

The distinguishment needs to be made between the place of torment (gehenna) that Jesus NEVER visited, and the holding tank of the righteous dead before their ascension into heaven (Der I kno u dont espouse this so no need rebuttaling me as we are on the same side ).

Also, on the cross, telestai, it is finished . . . so IF He did descend into "hades" it was not to suffer any of the effects that an unrighteous man were to suffer. So when He DOES GO (Der Alt. not buying that He does, but I do) it is NOT to suffer but to do what Peter says He will do . . . to preach . . . not atone or continue any work of redemption in mans place.

So, no dice, doesnt work either way.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

G931 βάσανος basanos
​

Thayer Definition:
1) a touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
2) the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth
3) torture, torment, acute pains
3a) of the pains of a disease
3b) of those in hell after death
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: perhaps remotely from the same as G939 (through the notion of going to the bottom)
Citing in TDNT: 1:561, 96
​

I see nothing indicating an external blowtorch under anyone's rear end.- Sky



Then we'll go through the evidence, because you are afraid to.

I say "ALL mentions of "Torment" can be understood as "Sadness in response to the Truth" or "Anguish over decisions made"

Lets check that with #1
1) a touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal

1)a touchstone...used to test...purity..

It sounds to me like a mental test for Hell itself here. (I predict sadness & anguish here.)

2) the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth

Same thing. A device or a test. A Truth serum of sorts. (I predict sadness & anguish here.)

3) torture, torment, acute pains
Now I DO see the word "torture" here but it is augmented by two types of internal pain, torment & Acute pain.
3a) of the pains of a disease
(I predictanguish & sadness here.)
3b) of those in hell after death
(I predict sadness & anguish here.)

I agree that this word goes beyond normal sadness. But that's to be expected if you have your soul laid bare before the Light of the Everlasting God forever and ever with no clothes to cover you up or rocks to crawl under.
My "Sadness in response to the Truth" or "Anguish over decisions made" fits just fine.

I'm not sure what kind of pain you had in mind? God will resurrect the dead Sinners back into physical bodies just so there is something to burn for eternity? I missed those verses. Let me know where I can find that.

Well there is only ONE philosophical concept with anguish in the final judgement . . . gnashing of teeth.

All the others, fire, torment, burning, worm never dieing, smoke of torment, etc. convey some sense of a physicality.

So, it is NOT exclusively ONE OR THE OTHER . . . it is BOTH and.

Add to it the sense of lonliness and disconnection of "outer darkness" and you got the picture of the eternal reality of the unbelieving.

But you cannot discount the physical . . .

 

[SkyWriting]

Well there is only ONE philosophical concept with anguish in the final judgement . . . gnashing of teeth.

All the others, fire, torment, burning, worm never dieing, smoke of torment, etc. convey some sense of a physicality.

So, it is NOT exclusively ONE OR THE OTHER . . . it is BOTH and.

Add to it the sense of loneliness and disconnection of "outer darkness" and you got the picture of the eternal reality of the unbelieving.

But you cannot discount the physical . . .

I can. I get bleeding gashes on my legs DAILY as a result of not having much sensitivity. I imagine I could sew my own stitches without problem. I don't even consider physical pain to be a serious issue in hell. Not because I fear it, but because I don't. Clearly. Because that is my argument anyway.

I do however have a story that illustrates the condition of a person in Hell.
He seems to be in discomfort, but not so much that he doesn't have compassion for those left behind.

I'll give you this picture and ask if those flames were "conventional" would this guy be chatting with Lazarus and thinking of others?

 

[SkyWriting]

Well there is only ONE philosophical concept with anguish in the final judgement . . . gnashing of teeth.

All the others, fire, torment, burning, worm never dieing, smoke of torment, etc. convey some sense of a physicality.

So, it is NOT exclusively ONE OR THE OTHER . . . it is BOTH and.

Add to it the sense of loneliness and disconnection of "outer darkness" and you got the picture of the eternal reality of the unbelieving.

But you cannot discount the physical . . .

I can. I get bleeding gashes on my legs DAILY as a result of not having much sensitivity. I imagine I could sew my own stitches without problem.
I don't even consider physical pain to be a serious issue in hell. Not because I fear it, but because I don't. Clearly. Because that is my argument anyway.

I do however have a story that illustrates the condition of a person in Hell.
He seems to be in discomfort, but not so much that he doesn't have compassion for those left behind.

I'll give you this picture and ask if those flames were "conventional" would this guy be chatting with Lazarus and thinking of others?

 

[Der Alte]

I can. I get bleeding gashes on my legs DAILY as a result of not having much sensitivity. I imagine I could sew my own stitches without problem.
I don't even consider physical pain to be a serious issue in hell. Not because I fear it, but because I don't. Clearly. Because that is my argument anyway.

I do however have a story that illustrates the condition of a person in Hell.
He seems to be in discomfort, but not so much that he doesn't have compassion for those left behind.

I'll give you this picture and ask if those flames were "conventional" would this guy be chatting with Lazarus and thinking of others?

In April a mother in Mississippi placed a mattress over her children then lay on top of it to protect them during a tornado. The mother died buyt the children lived.Miss. Mom Dies Saving Kids From Tornado - CBS Evening News - CBS News

 

[martymonster]

In April a mother in Mississippi placed a mattress over her children then lay on top of it to protect them during a tornado. The mother died buyt the children lived.Miss. Mom Dies Saving Kids From Tornado - CBS Evening News - CBS News

If you are being burned alive you are not going to be having any sort of coherent conversations but what you will be doing is screaming you guts out and that's it.

I imagine that mother quail wasn't having to many conversations while it was being cooked alive either.

Also my question is what is moral of the the story of the Richman and why is He supposedly in Hell?

 

[Der Alte]

If you are being burned alive you are not going to be having any sort of coherent conversations but what you will be doing is screaming you guts out and that's it.

I imagine that mother quail was having to many conversations while it was being cooked alive either.

Some people say that the rich man's request for a drop of water to cool his burning tongue was an incoherent or irrational exclamation! Read about torture if you really want to know what people will do or say when in intense pain!

Also my question is what is moral of the the story of the Richman and why is He supposedly in Hell?

Lev 25:35 And if thy brother be waxen poor, and fallen in decay with thee; then thou shalt relieve him: yea, though he be a stranger, or a sojourner; that he may live with thee.

Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.​

The desire to eat the crumbs from the rich man's table are not fulfilled!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Some people say that the rich man's request for a drop of water to cool his burning tongue was an incoherent exclamation!

The desire to eat the crumbs from the rich man's table are not fulfilled!

How and when do you think that will be fulfilled? Thanks

Luke 16:19 Yet a certain man was rich and was inslipped purple and linen making-merry down to a-day shiningly.

John 9:41 Jesus said to them "if blind ye were, not ever ye had sin.
Yet now ye are saying that 'we are seeing', the sin of ye is remaining".

Reve 3:17 That thou are saying that rich I am, and I have become rich and not yet one need I am having.
And not are aware that thou are the weight-calloused and forlorn and poor and blind and naked.

 

[martymonster]

Some people say that the rich man's request for a drop of water to cool his burning tongue was an incoherent exclamation!

So what do I care what some people say?
I only care what the scriptures say and the scriptures say that He asked for a drop of water to cool his tongue!

Why His tongue anyway?
If the guys on fire and He's in agony in those flames wouldn't He ask for some water for the rest of Him that's burning?

Seems a little strange that one.
Could it be that it's because We are judged out of our own mouth?

Lev 25:35 And if thy brother be waxen poor, and fallen in decay with thee; then thou shalt relieve him: yea, though he be a stranger, or a sojourner; that he may live with thee.

Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.​

The desire to eat the crumbs from the rich man's table are not fulfilled!

No Jesus says that the Rich man is in torment because He recieved good things in His life not because mistreated the poor.

Is it a virtue to be poor?

Jesus does not give any other reason for Lazarus not to be in torment other than His having evil things in His life.

What's that all about?

 

[Der Alte]

So what do I care what some people say?
I only care what the scriptures say and the scriptures say that He asked for a drop of water to cool his tongue!

Ain't you the dood who claimed, "If you are being burned alive you are not going to be having any sort of coherent conversations but what you will be doing is screaming you guts out and that's it?" Now you are saying the the rich man was having a coherent conversation!

Why His tongue anyway?
If the guys on fire and He's in agony in those flames wouldn't He ask for some water for the rest of Him that's burning?

You tell me, it is your fairy tale? First you say he is having a coherent conversation now you are implying his conversation was not coherent. Which is it, or does it change depending on which argument you are making at the moment?

Seems a little strange that one.
Could it be that it's because We are judged out of our own mouth?

Is this supposed to make sense in this context? Why not enlighten us with some of the stuff you have been intensely indoctrinated with?

No Jesus says that the Rich man is in torment because He recieved good things in His life not because mistreated the poor.

Jesus says no such thing!

Is it a virtue to be poor?

Jesus does not give any other reason for Lazarus not to be in torment other than His having evil things in His life.

What's that all about?

Actually Jesus is NOT speaking, Abraham is! And Abraham does not give a "reason" for either the rich man or Lazarus being where they are. He merely points out the difference between their respective situations before and in their present circumstances. I quoted scripture, you ignored it and went off chasing a meaningless rabbit, down an irrelevant trail. Please tell me where it is written that every time Jesus opened his mouth he had to teach the entire O.T.? Yours is a logical fallacy, argument from silence.

 

[Der Alte]

How and when do you think that will be fulfilled? Thanks

Luke 16:19 Yet a certain man was rich and was inslipped purple and linen making-merry down to a-day shiningly.

John 9:41 Jesus said to them "if blind ye were, not ever ye had sin.
Yet now ye are saying that 'we are seeing', the sin of ye is remaining".

Reve 3:17 That thou are saying that rich I am, and I have become rich and not yet one need I am having.
And not are aware that thou are the weight-calloused and forlorn and poor and blind and naked.

Since "Abraham's' bosom" is not a place but a position, i.e. the position of honor in front of, or to the right, of the host at the heavenly banquet, I would say that Lazarus' desire was being met at that time.

 

[martymonster]

Ain't you the dood who claimed, "If you are being burned alive you are not going to be having any sort of coherent conversations but what you will be doing is screaming you guts out and that's it?" Now you are saying the the rich man was having a coherent conversation!



You tell me, it is your fairy tale? First you say he is having a coherent conversation now you are implying his conversation was not coherent. Which is it, or does it change depending on which argument you are making at the moment?



Is this supposed to make sense in this context? Why not enlighten us with some of the stuff you have been intensely indoctrinated with?



Jesus says no such thing!



Actually Jesus is NOT speaking, Abraham is! And Abraham does not give a "reason" for either the rich man or Lazarus being where they are. He merely points out the difference between their respective situations before and in their present circumstances. I quoted scripture, you ignored it and went off chasing a meaningless rabbit, down an irrelevant trail. Please tell me where it is written that every time Jesus opened his mouth he had to teach the entire O.T.? Yours is a logical fallacy, argument from silence.

I'm just pointing out the inconsitancies of the story being taken literally.

Your the one who has to alter the words of Jesus to make it fit your position.

I have done no such thing myself, but you just did and you replaced Christ's words with the opinions and speculations of men!

 

[Der Alte]

I'm just pointing out the inconsitancies of the story being taken literally.

Your the one who has to alter the words of Jesus to make it fit your position.

I have done no such thing myself, but you just did and you replaced Christ's words with the opinions and speculations of men!

There are NO, ZERO, NONE inconsistencies in interpreting Luke 16:19-48 literally!

I have not altered anything Jesus said. You might want to actually read the passage, which you appear not to have done. Throughout the passage Jesus is quoting what the rich man and Abraham say to each other! I have NOT replaced anything with anything! Just more of your blatant, false, heinous accusations!

 

[SkyWriting]

I can. I get bleeding gashes on my legs DAILY as a result of not having much sensitivity. I imagine I could sew my own stitches without problem.
I don't even consider physical pain to be a serious issue in hell. Not because I fear it, but because I don't. Clearly. Because that is my argument anyway.

I do however have a story that illustrates the condition of a person in Hell.
He seems to be in discomfort, but not so much that he doesn't have compassion for those left behind.

I'll give you this picture and ask if those flames were "conventional" would this guy be chatting with {Abraham} and thinking of others?

In April a mother in Mississippi placed a mattress over her children then lay on top of it to protect them during a tornado. The mother died buyt the children lived.Miss. Mom Dies Saving Kids From Tornado - CBS Evening News - CBS News

If that was the illustration, I'd give you the nod.

But chatting with Abraham about his brothers still on earth and sheilding ones children from death with your body are two separate illustrations.

You'll note that the Rich man did not personally offer anything to save his brothers. Not even lift a finger to help them.

New International Version (©1984)
This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.

 

[SkyWriting]

Well there is only ONE philosophical concept with anguish in the final judgement . . . gnashing of teeth....

And "weeping and gnashing of teeth" illustrates...........?

Sadness & Anger

 

[martymonster]

There are NO, ZERO, NONE inconsistencies in interpreting Luke 16:19-48 literally!

I have not altered anything Jesus said. You might want to actually read the passage, which you appear not to have done. Throughout the passage Jesus is quoting what the rich man and Abraham say to each other! I have NOT replaced anything with anything! Just more of your blatant, false, heinous accusations!

Actually a guy who is supposedly being burned alive chatting with Lazarus about dipping His finger in some water for His tongue while the rest of Him is on fire?

That's pretty inconsistant!

Have you ever seen someone burning alive?

Have you ever burned yourself?

How about this, you PM me your phone number and arrange for me to ring you a certain time so you can heat up the stove and then We'll talk on the phone for about 20 seconds while you hold your hand on the stove and We'll see how you go!

And yes you said that you heard that some people say that when the Rich man asked for some water that it was possibly just an incoherent noise.
Since you mentioned it that makes you guilty of alligning yourself with those people who don't believe what is written!

Now there is another possiblity and that is that the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man is exactly that.

A Parable!

Actually wasn't it you who said that Jesus didn't speak to His disciples in parables?

Are you suggesting then that the Pharisees and the Scribes were Jesus disciples?