Let's Talk About Hell

[Pythons]

Do you know what went on with Jesus during the time between when He died and He rose again? I don't. The Bible doesn't tell us. But it does tell us that Jesus paid the full price for our sin, and those who reject Christ will be tormented forever. I guess if you want that answer you need to ask the Lord Himself, because the Bible does not go into the reasons why Jesus seemed to just die while sinners will be tormented forever. The Bible has given us enough information for us to have faith in Christ for our salvation. I just wonder if sometimes we are being curious about things that we are not meant to know? Actually I am quite content which what the Bible tells me. Whoops! I think that is what they call faith!

I've heard it said over and over again from the camps that push soul sleep & the state of being as if one never existed in the first place for the wicked......
.......That they would never worship a God who would do something like that.....
...Well, in fact they don't.
...They worship a god of their own creation, one that makes sense to them. a god created in "their" own image and likness.

 

[Der Alte]

[ . . . ]Believing that death (as the graves means no matter what the transliteration) doesn't mean death is believing the serpent instead of God. Death is the last thing thrown into Gehenna, that's the second death. (note: not second torment, second death)

"Death" is the punctiliar, i.e. point in time, cessation of life. It has no physical substance, it cannot be thrown anywhere. However, there is a sentient being, called "Death", whom I refer to as the angel of death, who along with another sentient being, called "Hell," are given power to kill 1/4 of the earth.

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

These two beings are later thrown into the lake of fire and their power to kill ended.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.​

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Acts 2:1,14, 22-31
Peter presents a strong logical argument based on the words of David that Christ was delivered by God for our offences, went to hell, the grave, the condition of death, destruction, (Ps 16:10) and according to the promise of God, He was delivered from hell, grave, destruction, by resurrection, recreation, glorious and exalted to the express image of the Father (Heb 1:3) and this same Jesus (Acts 2:36) in further revelation to the church declares that:
　
Revelation 1:18
and the living one: and I became dead, and behold, I am living to the ages of ages, and have the keys of death and of hades. (the grave)
　
That's the outcome of Jesus' mission. (Zech 9:12, Lk 4:18)
　
Death was the penalty that Christ endured for the whole world. He died for our sins and also for the whole world. (1 Cor 15:3, 1 Jn 2:2)
　
Revelation 20:13-14
And the sea gave up the dead which [were] in it, and death and hades gave up the dead which [were] in them; and they were judged each according to their works:
and death and hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, [even] the lake of fire.
　
The lake of fire, like Gehenna, is the symbol of final destruction, just like the garbage dump was a part of the old Jerusalem. All a part of the same pattern. Gehenna was the place that 'corpses' went. (Is 66) and worms consumed that which didn't fall into the fire. It signified final destruction of soul and body to the people of Jerusalem, the place of graves of those that were judged unredeemable.

1 Corinthians 15:26
[The] last enemy [that] is annulled [is] death.
　
Revelation 21:4
And he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall not exist any more, nor grief, nor cry, nor distress shall exist any more, for the former things have passed away.
　
For the former things to pass away means that they will no longer exist.
　
James 3:6
and the tongue [is] fire, the world of unrighteousness; the tongue is set in our members, the defiler of the whole body, and which sets fire to the course of nature, and is set on fire of hell.
　
The tongue also carries the word of life or death. The fall is from honour and dignity and their degradation is their fruit.
　
If hell is a place of torment as Dante's inferno denotes, why does scripture declare it to be a place of darkness and unconsciousness?
(Ps 88:3-12, 6:5, 146:4 Job 10:21-22, Ecc 9:10, Isa 38:18)
　
God is able to destroy both soul and body and has declared that He will destroy the wicked, not place them in prison of torment.

(Ps 35:17, Isa 55:3, Mat 10:28, Act 3:23, Ja 3:12)
　
Matthew 16:25-26
For whosoever shall desire to save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake shall find it.
For what does a man profit, if he should gain the whole world and suffer the loss of his soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
　

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

If hell is a place of torment as Dante's inferno denotes, why does scripture declare it to be a place of darkness and unconsciousness?
](Ps 88:3-12, 6:5, 146:4 Job 10:21-22, Ecc 9:10, Isa 38:18)

God is able to destroy both soul and body and has declared that He will destroy the wicked, not place them in prison of torment.

You are cobbling together different Scriptures to support your position and ignoring other clearly written Scriptures that describe Hell as a place of fire and torment. I frankly don't care what Dante wrote about Hell. His work is not Holy Scripture. If Holy Spirit inspired Scripture describes Hell as a place of burning, torment and darkness, then I accept that. Anything else is not faith, and without faith it is impossible to please God. Ignoring the Scripture is walking away from faith into human philosophy. Granted, it is very difficult to conceive of a horrible, frightening place where sinners will be tormented in fire and darkness for the rest of eternity, but if the Bible says that there is such a place, I would be insulting God by saying that He is mistaken or a liar if I believed and taught otherwise.

In my opinion, people who "water down" Hell are those who have no assurance of their own salvation and are being convicted of their sin and suspect that they might just end up there, so they are hoping that it won't be as bad as the Bible sets out. For those people, the Scripture says "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil 2:12-16). We follow a God who is gracious and merciful to those who run to and depend on Christ for their salvation, but a terrifying Judge to those who are trying to depend on their own wisdom and righteousness.

It doesn't matter how terrifying and horrifying Hell is, I know where I stand with Christ, and my life is hid with Him (Col 3:3). So Hell has no terrors for me. I have absolute assurance in my salvation. I have already judged myself to be a hopeless sinner, so I ran to Christ for cleansing and salvation. I am now the righteousness of God in Christ (Rom 3:22). Therefore I will not be judged in the great Judgment (1Cor 11:31). The only thing that people will be judged on there is their attitude to Christ. Read for yourself what will happen to those on the left, who did not trust in Jesus Christ (Matt 25:41). God will tell them to depart into everlasting fire. He does not say depart into everlasting unconsciousness. So, for you to say that Hell will not be a place of torment is a direct contradiction to the words of God's own mouth, and when a person says "God did not really say that...", who is he or she aligning with? I leave the answer to you.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Because Jesus was perfect, and never committed any sin of His own...therfore hell had no right to hold Him, and justice for us was satisfied with the fact that a perfect man paid the penalty for us.

Jesus, Who knew no sin, was made to be sin for us so we could be made the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus.

Jesus literally had to recieve our sin upon Himself by faith (this is what He was praying about in Gethsemane). He never committed any sin, but the Bible said He was made to be sin for us...in otherwords, He took our sin so we could take His righteousness.

It's the classic Covenant relationship...He was righteous, we were un-righteous. He paid the sin debt mankind owed, so mankind could be free to be back in right relationship with God.

It's important to note that God is not demanding or forcing any man to receive Salvation...He is simply demanding that every person have a choice. People have the right to reject Jesus if they want, which will land them in hell forever.

There's only one sin now that cause people to go to hell...and that is rejecting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior

Well said!

 

[Der Alte]

Bumping these two posts for those who have not or will not read them.

Some of us have studied this for ourselves, and when studied systematically we find the Biblical truth that the unrighteous will be punished eternally in a place of God's choosing, whatever name you choose to call it.

Twenty eight (28) passages, in order they occur in the Bible, Jesus speaking on eternal punishment of the wicked.

Passages list, Matt 3:12; 5:13, 20, 29,-30; 7:13-14; 21-23; 8:12; 10:33, 39-42; 13:49-50; 18:3-4, 8-9, 21:43; 22:2-14; 23:13, 15; 25:11-12, 41, 46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Lk 9:62; 12:45-46; 13:23-24; Luke 16:22-28; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, 18; 15:6.

[1] Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

[2] Matthew 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

[3] Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness[sup]1[/sup] shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

[sup]1[/sup] Psalm 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:​

[4] Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

[5]Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, [i.e. Kingdom of heaven, vs. 21] and few there be that find it.

[6] Matt 7: 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say[sup]2[/sup] to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[7] Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[8] Matt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

[9] Matt 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.[/b

[10] Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[11] Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily [αμην/amen] I say unto you, Except ye be converted[sup]3[/sup], and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

[12] Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] fire.
18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.​

See comments on Mark 9:43-48, below.

[13] Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

[14] Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
* * *
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
* * *
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

[15] Matt 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [the kingdom of heaven] yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
[…]
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

[16] Matt 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily, [αμην/amen] I say unto you, I know you not.

[17] Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[…]
46 And these shall go away into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] punishment: but the righteous into life eternal [αιωνιον/aiónion].​

In this passage Jesus calls the sinners, unrepentant, wicked, etc. “cursed.”

10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons from now, will God’s unchanging word, Jesus, still say, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, everlasting punishment?”

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: [εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

(Continued in next post)

 

[Der Alte]

..

[18] Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.​

If the unrighteous, in “hades,” eventually leave, the worm would no longer be theirs nor any concern to them. Why would Jesus warn his followers about worms, that do not die, three times, if it did not concern them? Was Jesus concerned about the biology of worms, or the eternal souls of his followers?

If those in hell eventually leave, the unquenched fire did not concern them. Why did Jesus warn his followers about unquenched fire, five times, if it did not concern them?

[19] Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.​

When a person dies rejecting, cursing, blaspheming, God and does not receive the Kingdom, Jesus said they shall not enter in. For universalism to be true either Jesus is a liar, or these words must change to, shall enter in.” When does that change occur?

There is no second chance to receive the Kingdom, after death.

Heb 9:27 “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”

[20] Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

[21] Luke 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.​

What is the portion of the unbelievers? αιωνιον/aiónion punishment, see Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.

Luke 13:23, below. Jesus said, “many shall not be able,” to enter the kingdom. Universalists claim that everyone will enter. Is Jesus a liar? Some time in the future will this verse change to say, “Everyone shall be able to enter?” When does that change occur?

[22] Luke 13: 23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

[23] Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. [of the kingdom of God.]

[24] Luke 16:22 [. . .] the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But [Jesus said] Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us[sup]4[/sup], that would come from thence.​

[sup]4[/sup] Note, those in “hades,” the place of torment, cannot leave. 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons from now God’s unchanging word will still say, “neither can they pass to us.”

Scoffers argue it is only a parable, if so, what is the point of the parable? In every legitimate parable, Jesus uses common, every day, events to illustrate or clarify, often unclear, spiritual truth. The only common, every day, events in this story are Lazarus begging and the rich man living high. Everything else occurs after the death of Lazarus and the rich man. What spiritual truth, for the living, is Jesus clarifying, or illustrating, by talking about things that happen after death, that his audience had never experienced?

In all the legitimate parables Jesus uses nonspecific persons, “a certain man,” “a certain king,” etc. In the thousands of years of history, someone said or did the things Jesus mentioned. Somebody, somewhere, lost sheep and coins, and found them, sowed seed, etc.

But Abraham is a specific, historical, person. If Abraham did not actually, in fact, speak to the rich man, in hades, and, literally, say the words, in blue, that Jesus quotes, Jesus is a liar.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 [Jesus said] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
[…]
31 [Jesus said] And he [Abraham] said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

[25] Luke 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.​

When a person dies rejecting, cursing, blaspheming, God, and does not receive the Kingdom, Jesus said they shall not enter in. For universalism to be true, either Jesus is a liar, or these words must change to, shall enter in.” When does this verse change?

[26] John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, [αμην αμην/amen amen] I say unto thee, Except a man be born again,[sup]5[/sup] he cannot see the kingdom of God.

[27] John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, [αμην αμην/amen amen] I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit][sup]5[/sup], he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.​

[sup]5[/sup] Note, is there any scripture, anywhere, showing anyone, ever, being born again, born of water, and the spirit, after death?

When does this verse change to “Even if a man is not born of water, and of the Spirit, he can still enter into the kingdom of God?”

[28] John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.​

When does Jesus say they are taken out of the fire? How long are they burned in the fire?

See Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.

Note in the most well known and loved passage in the N.T. Jesus did not say everyone was saved already. But he said they are condemned already.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.​

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

You are cobbling together different Scriptures to support your position and ignoring other clearly written Scriptures that describe Hell as a place of fire and torment. I frankly don't care what Dante wrote about Hell. His work is not Holy Scripture. If Holy Spirit inspired Scripture describes Hell as a place of burning, torment and darkness, then I accept that. Anything else is not faith, and without faith it is impossible to please God. Ignoring the Scripture is walking away from faith into human philosophy. Granted, it is very difficult to conceive of a horrible, frightening place where sinners will be tormented in fire and darkness for the rest of eternity, but if the Bible says that there is such a place, I would be insulting God by saying that He is mistaken or a liar if I believed and taught otherwise.

In my opinion, people who "water down" Hell are those who have no assurance of their own salvation and are being convicted of their sin and suspect that they might just end up there, so they are hoping that it won't be as bad as the Bible sets out. For those people, the Scripture says "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil 2:12-16). We follow a God who is gracious and merciful to those who run to and depend on Christ for their salvation, but a terrifying Judge to those who are trying to depend on their own wisdom and righteousness.

It doesn't matter how terrifying and horrifying Hell is, I know where I stand with Christ, and my life is hid with Him (Col 3:3). So Hell has no terrors for me. I have absolute assurance in my salvation. I have already judged myself to be a hopeless sinner, so I ran to Christ for cleansing and salvation. I am now the righteousness of God in Christ (Rom 3:22). Therefore I will not be judged in the great Judgment (1Cor 11:31). The only thing that people will be judged on there is their attitude to Christ. Read for yourself what will happen to those on the left, who did not trust in Jesus Christ (Matt 25:41). God will tell them to depart into everlasting fire. He does not say depart into everlasting unconsciousness. So, for you to say that Hell will not be a place of torment is a direct contradiction to the words of God's own mouth, and when a person says "God did not really say that...", who is he or she aligning with? I leave the answer to you.

New Testiment writers all testify to the penalty being destruction everlasting.
　
Paul:


Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
　
2 Thessalonians 1:9
These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
　
Philippians 3:19
whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things.
　
　
John:
　
1 John 2:17
And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.
　
1 John 3:8
He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
　
1 John 3:14-15
We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
　
1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

　
　
Peter:
　
Acts 3:23
And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’
　
2 Peter 2
Destructive Doctrines
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
　
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

　
　
James:
　
James 1:15
Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
　
James 4:12
There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?


Keep in mind those are NOT Metaphors.

 

[martymonster]

I've heard it said over and over again from the camps that push soul sleep & the state of being as if one never existed in the first place for the wicked......
.......That they would never worship a God who would do something like that.....
...Well, in fact they don't.
...They worship a god of their own creation, one that makes sense to them. a god created in "their" own image and likness.

The truth is that We are all guilty of worshiping a god of our own creating.

We make God in our own image and it has been that way since man began.

Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

What do you think it means in the old testament when God's people worshiped the work of their own hands?

It means that We worship the work of our own hands, as in our own works!

Maybe you thought that the old testament was there just as a history lesson?

Well it's not, its about us, everyone of us!

Mat 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

The irony of Jer 32:35 (and it's no coincidence I assure you) is that the place where the Jews did that particular abomination is called the valley of Hinnom which latter became Gehenna.

Gehenna became a rubbish dump outside the city of Jerusalem where they used to throw all kinds of refuse, including the dead bodies of criminals.

Here's where the irony kicks in.

Whenever Jesus is supposedly threatening people with Hell in the Gospels, the correct translation for the word Hell is actually Gehenna, the valley Hinnom!

Oh the irony!

Jesus is supposedly threatening people with the thing that made the place such an abomination to God.

Roasting His own children alive!

Mat 5:29 `But, if thy right eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.
Mat 5:30 `And, if thy right hand doth cause thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.

Oh the irony!!!

 

[Der Alte]

The truth is that We are all guilty of worshiping a god of our own creating.

We make God in our own image and it has been that way since man began.

Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

What do you think it means in the old testament when God's people worshiped the work of their own hands?

It means that We worship the work of our own hands, as in our own works!

Maybe you thought that the old testament was there just as a history lesson?

Well it's not, its about us, everyone of us!

Mat 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

The irony of Jer 32:35 (and it's no coincidence I assure you) is that the place where the Jews did that particular abomination is called the valley of Hinnom which latter became Gehenna.

Gehenna became a rubbish dump outside the city of Jerusalem where they used to throw all kinds of refuse, including the dead bodies of criminals.

Here's where the irony kicks in.

Whenever Jesus is supposedly threatening people with Hell in the Gospels, the correct translation for the word Hell is actually Gehenna, the valley Hinnom!

Oh the irony!

Jesus is supposedly threatening people with the thing that made the place such an abomination to God.

Roasting His own children alive!

Mat 5:29 `But, if thy right eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.
Mat 5:30 `And, if thy right hand doth cause thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.

Oh the irony!!!

Speak for yourself, you may be worshipping the work of your own hands. I'm not! I don't care how many out-of-context verses you post. Posted earlier in this thread.

This is a small part of a much longer article. The scripture references are highlighted in blue.

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA
by : Kaufmann Kohler Ludwig Blau

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.] according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day.

The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. It was in Zion, and had a gate in Jerusalem (Isa. xxxi. 9). It had three gates, one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem ('Er. 19a). The gate lies between two palm-trees in the valley of Hinnom, from which smoke is continually rising (ib.).

Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a). A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (hag. 13b).

There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell (Lucian, Αληθεις Ιστοριαι, i. 29, in Dietrich, "Abraxas," p. 36). The sulfurous smell of the Tiberian medicinal springs was ascribed to their connection with Gehenna. In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire.

Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry." But God refuses his request, telling him to take the heathen peoples (Shab. 104). God says to the angel-prince: "I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals" ('Ar. 15b).

Judgment.

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (hag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b).

They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a). There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). " The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). (see image) Valley of Ge-Hinnom.(From a photograph by Bonfils.) The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

Copyright 2002 JewishEncyclopedia.com. All rights reserved.

JewishEncyclopedia.com - GEHENNA
​

 

[Der Alte]

New Testiment writers all testify to the penalty being destruction everlasting.
　
Paul:

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
　
2 Thessalonians 1:9
These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
　
Philippians 3:19
whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things.　
　
John:
　
1 John 2:17
And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.
　
1 John 3:8
He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
　
1 John 3:14-15
We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
　
1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.　
　
Peter:
　
Acts 3:23
And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’
　
2 Peter 2
Destructive Doctrines
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
　
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.　
　
James:
　
James 1:15
Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
　
James 4:12
There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?

Keep in mind those are NOT Metaphors.

Several of them are clearly figurative language. But why have you ignored the words of Jesus? I have listed twenty eight passage spoken by Jesus, in the order they occur in the NT, where Jesus talks about the fate of the unrighteous. That post is immediately above your post I am quoting here.

 

[martymonster]

Speak for yourself, you may be worshipping the work of your own hands. I'm not! I don't care how many out-of-context verses you post. Posted earlier in this thread.

1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

The last time I looked every means all of.

Are you the exception to this rule?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Several of them are clearly figurative language. But why have you ignored the words of Jesus? I have listed twenty eight passage spoken by Jesus, in the order they occur in the NT, where Jesus talks about the fate of the unrighteous. That post is immediately above your post I am quoting here.

Jesus never spoke of anything that wasn't in the realm of reference, as I've said many times. The fire that never quenched that was a pattern of Jerusalem. They would know that as a referal to the place were the corpses were burnt outside the city.
I believe the disciples were speaking plainly what they had been taught by Him.

Hebrews 2:14 clearly shows that the devil will surely die and that he will be no more.
　
　
:14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, he likewise shared in25 their humanity,26 so that through death he could destroy27 the one who holds the power of death (that is, the devil),
　
25tn Or "partook of" (this is a different word than the one in v. 14a).
26tn Grk "the same."
27tn Or "break the power of," "reduce to nothing."

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Several of them are clearly figurative language. But why have you ignored the words of Jesus? I have listed twenty eight passage spoken by Jesus, in the order they occur in the NT, where Jesus talks about the fate of the unrighteous. That post is immediately above your post I am quoting here.

Some things cannot be accepted by persuasion.
There are people who are so dominated by their natural mind, they cannot understand what the Scripture is saying about many things.

"Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged" (1Cor 2:14).

The reality of Hell comes by revelation from the Holy Spirit. When a person has not received the Holy Spirit and are trusting in their natural mind, they have little understanding of what the Gospel is all about. But when a sinner is sliding down into Hell, his eyes are opened and he sees his future as it really is, but it will be too late for him.

 

[Der Alte]

Some things cannot be accepted by persuasion.
There are people who are so dominated by their natural mind, they cannot understand what the Scripture is saying about many things.

"Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged" (1Cor 2:14).

The reality of Hell comes by revelation from the Holy Spirit. When a person has not received the Holy Spirit and are trusting in their natural mind, they have little understanding of what the Gospel is all about. But when a sinner is sliding down into Hell, his eyes are opened and he sees his future as it really is, but it will be too late for him.

I could not agree more! I have long since abandoned the idea that I will convince the person I am talking to. IMO all we can hope for is that someone who is "lurking", not meant in a derogatory way, who is undecided, not knowing which view is scriptural, will see the errors, fallacies, etc. of those arguing from their tradition, and see how they often avoid addressing scripture which contadict them, and will from that reach an informed decision.

 

[Der Alte]

Jesus never spoke of anything that wasn't in the realm of reference, as I've said many times. The fire that never quenched that was a pattern of Jerusalem. They would know that as a referal to the place were the corpses were burnt outside the city.
I believe the disciples were speaking plainly what they had been taught by Him.

I don't understand what you mean by "in the realm of reference." When Jesus spoke of the unrighteous being cast into Gehenna, he was not speaking of a pattern. I have seen no evidence that the valley of Hinnom, i.e. Gehenna, was a trash dump or that corpses were burned there during the time of Jesus. But here is what the Jews before and during the 1st century believed about "Gehenna."

This is a small part of a much longer article. The scripture references are highlighted in blue.

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA
by : Kaufmann Kohler Ludwig Blau

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.] according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day.

The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. It was in Zion, and had a gate in Jerusalem (Isa. xxxi. 9). It had three gates, one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem ('Er. 19a). The gate lies between two palm-trees in the valley of Hinnom, from which smoke is continually rising (ib.).

Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a). A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (hag. 13b).

There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell (Lucian, Αληθεις Ιστοριαι, i. 29, in Dietrich, "Abraxas," p. 36). The sulfurous smell of the Tiberian medicinal springs was ascribed to their connection with Gehenna. In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire.

Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry." But God refuses his request, telling him to take the heathen peoples (Shab. 104). God says to the angel-prince: "I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals" ('Ar. 15b).

Judgment.

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (hag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b).

They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a). There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). " The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). (see image) Valley of Ge-Hinnom.(From a photograph by Bonfils.) The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

Copyright 2002 JewishEncyclopedia.com. All rights reserved.

JewishEncyclopedia.com - GEHENNA
​

Hebrews 2:14 clearly shows that the devil will surely die and that he will be no more.

:14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, he likewise shared in25 their humanity,26 so that through death he could destroy27 the one who holds the power of death (that is, the devil),
　
25tn Or "partook of" (this is a different word than the one in v. 14a).
26tn Grk "the same."
27tn Or "break the power of," "reduce to nothing."

I don't see how these vss. are relevant to the topic.

 

[Der Alte]

Speak for yourself, you may be worshipping the work of your own hands. I'm not! I don't care how many out-of-context verses you post. Posted earlier in this thread.

1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

The last time I looked every means all of.

Are you the exception to this rule?

There is a big diffrence between a person admitting they are a sinner and that person worshipping the work of their own hands. And I must have missed the memo which appointed you the judge over everyone in this forum. I suggest you quit condemning and judging others and get back to the topic of this thread, "Let's talk about hell."

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I don't understand what you mean by "in the realm of reference." When Jesus spoke of the unrighteous being cast into Gehenna, he was not speaking of a pattern. I have seen no evidence that the valley of Hinnom, i.e. Gehenna, was a trash dump or that corpses were burned there during the time of Jesus. But here is what the Jews before and during the 1st century believed about "Gehenna."



I don't see how these vss. are relevant to the topic.

We differ on interpretation, not on facts, of which I've pointed out numerous references to the disciples saying that death is death, not torment. Your interpretations are based on the assumption that death does not mean death.

Can you provide anything that isn't metaphoric to support that view?


When talking about Jesus and His Kingdom rule the focus has to be on His character because that is the Word that He portrays to us about God. So let's look at God's character and what He has previously taught OT about the topic.


Ezekiel 33:11


11 Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord GOD, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’


Ezekiel 18:32

32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord GOD. “Therefore turn and live!”


Can you provide evidence that God says He wishes the wicked to burn in hell?


From the cannon that is common to all, please

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Jesus never spoke of anything that wasn't in the realm of reference, as I've said many times. The fire that never quenched that was a pattern of Jerusalem. They would know that as a referal to the place were the corpses were burnt outside the city.
I believe the disciples were speaking plainly what they had been taught by Him.

Hebrews 2:14 clearly shows that the devil will surely die and that he will be no more.
　
　
:14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, he likewise shared in25 their humanity,26 so that through death he could destroy27 the one who holds the power of death (that is, the devil),
　
25tn Or "partook of" (this is a different word than the one in v. 14a).
26tn Grk "the same."
27tn Or "break the power of," "reduce to nothing."

But yet revelation 14 says differently . . . so "destroy" must be taken metaphorically.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

But yet revelation 14 says differently . . . so "destroy" must be taken metaphorically.

Rev 14:10's cup of wrath is explained in the OT
Psalms

CHAPTER 75

1 We give thanks to You, O God; we give thanks, For Your name is near; men tell of Your wondrous deeds.
2 When I choose the appointed time, It is I who judge with equity.
3 The earth and all who dwell in it melt; I have established its pillars.
4 I said to the boastful, Do not boast; And to the wicked, Do not lift up the horn.
5 Do not lift your horn on high; Do not speak arrogantly with a haughty neck.
6 For neither from the east nor from the west, And neither from the south, does exaltation come;
7 For God is the Judge: He puts this one down and exalts that one.
8 For there is a cup in the hand of Jehovah, And the wine foams; it is full of mixture, And He pours from it; indeed its dregs will all the wicked of the earth Drain off and drink up.
9 But as for me, I will declare forever, I will sing psalms to the God of Jacob.
10 And all the horns of the wicked will I cut off, But the horns of the righteous man will be exalted.

But says the wicked will be 'cut off'

The use of the word 'horns' is symbolic of the Greek 'Alaxander' and also of the philosophy of the culture.