Let's Talk About Hell

[Mathetes the kerux]

We differ on interpretation, not on facts, of which I've pointed out numerous references to the disciples saying that death is death, not torment. Your interpretations are based on the assumption that death does not mean death.

Can you provide anything that isn't metaphoric to support that view?


When talking about Jesus and His Kingdom rule the focus has to be on His character because that is the Word that He portrays to us about God. So let's look at God's character and what He has previously taught OT about the topic.


Ezekiel 33:11


11 Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord GOD, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’


Ezekiel 18:32

32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord GOD. “Therefore turn and live!”


Can you provide evidence that God says He wishes the wicked to burn in hell?


From the cannon that is common to all, please

Not quite clear what u are driving at . . . the words in red are yours too? Red for emphasis?

Death is frequently referring ONLY to the physical body and NOT the spirit/soul . . . and ALSO frequently refers to a state of relation to GOD and NOT cessation of consciousness.

You have a hard case to make because you have 3-4 CLEAR texts that teach eternal AND conscious punishment for the wicked AND you have the historical culture which ALSO understood eternal and conscious torment (2 out of the 3 sects understanding this makes the theological understanding of eternal punishment the MAJORITY view).

You cannot make the texts in question work systematically with the other texts by interpreting them both literally. IF there was a legitimate chance of interpreting the eternal torment passages figuratively then you MIGHT be able to interpret the "death" passages literally . . . BUT you CANNOT interpret the eternal torment passages figuratively. It is impossible hermeneutically w/o doing some hugely rubberbanding gymnastic moves with the text.

However, YOU CAN do the inverse and maintain textual integrity and hermeneutical consistency . . . which is why eternal torment is the only option hermeneutically.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Do you have a point to make or just spamming?

 

[Der Alte]

We differ on interpretation, not on facts, of which I've pointed out numerous references to the disciples saying that death is death, not torment. Your interpretations are based on the assumption that death does not mean death.

Yes you have 2-3 proof texts which you think proves your arguments while you ignore the many others verses which prove your assumptions/presuppositions wrong.

Can you provide anything that isn't metaphoric to support that view?

These two back to back posts listing, and discussing, twenty eight passages spoken by Jesus, addressing the fate of the unrighteous, in the order the vss. occur in the N.T. Link!

When talking about Jesus and His Kingdom rule the focus has to be on His character because that is the Word that He portrays to us about God. So let's look at God's character and what He has previously taught OT about the topic.

Wait a minute! I must not have received that memo which appoints you as the authority on Jesus and the N.T. ,dictating what must be the focus, etc.

Ezekiel 33:11

11 Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord GOD, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’

Ezekiel 18:32

32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord GOD. “Therefore turn and live!”

Can you provide evidence that God says He wishes the wicked to burn in hell?

The wrong question, asked in the wrong way, for the wrong reason. The fact that God does NOT say, "I wish/desire that the wicked burn in hell." does not mean God cannot/will not punish the wicked as described in the N.T. See link to list of vss. posted above.

From the cannon that is common to all, please

The word is "canon." See link to list of vss. posted above.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Do you have a point to make or just spamming?

if ur referring to me . . . I dont like spam:o

I think I made my point rather well . . .

I did ask you questions tho . . . as I was seeking to decipher what you were really saying.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

New Testiment writers all testify to the penalty being destruction everlasting.
　
Paul:


Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
　
2 Thessalonians 1:9
These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
　
Philippians 3:19
whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things.
　
　
John:
　
1 John 2:17
And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.
　
1 John 3:8
He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
　
1 John 3:14-15
We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
　
1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

　
　
Peter:
　
Acts 3:23
And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’
　
2 Peter 2
Destructive Doctrines
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
　
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

　
　
James:
　
James 1:15
Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
　
James 4:12
There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?


Keep in mind those are NOT Metaphors.

Jesus never spoke of anything that wasn't in the realm of reference, as I've said many times. The fire that never quenched that was a pattern of Jerusalem. They would know that as a referal to the place were the corpses were burnt outside the city.
I believe the disciples were speaking plainly what they had been taught by Him.

Hebrews 2:14 clearly shows that the devil will surely die and that he will be no more.
　
　
:14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, he likewise shared in25 their humanity,26 so that through death he could destroy27 the one who holds the power of death (that is, the devil),
　
25tn Or "partook of" (this is a different word than the one in v. 14a).
26tn Grk "the same."
27tn Or "break the power of," "reduce to nothing."

We differ on interpretation, not on facts, of which I've pointed out numerous references to the disciples saying that death is death, not torment. Your interpretations are based on the assumption that death does not mean death.

Can you provide anything that isn't metaphoric to support that view?


When talking about Jesus and His Kingdom rule the focus has to be on His character because that is the Word that He portrays to us about God. So let's look at God's character and what He has previously taught OT about the topic.


Ezekiel 33:11


11 Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord GOD, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’


Ezekiel 18:32

32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord GOD. “Therefore turn and live!”


Can you provide evidence that God says He wishes the wicked to burn in hell?


From the cannon that is common to all, please

Rev 14:10's cup of wrath is explained in the OT
Psalms

CHAPTER 75

1 We give thanks to You, O God; we give thanks, For Your name is near; men tell of Your wondrous deeds.
2 When I choose the appointed time, It is I who judge with equity.
3 The earth and all who dwell in it melt; I have established its pillars.
4 I said to the boastful, Do not boast; And to the wicked, Do not lift up the horn.
5 Do not lift your horn on high; Do not speak arrogantly with a haughty neck.
6 For neither from the east nor from the west, And neither from the south, does exaltation come;
7 For God is the Judge: He puts this one down and exalts that one.
8 For there is a cup in the hand of Jehovah, And the wine foams; it is full of mixture, And He pours from it; indeed its dregs will all the wicked of the earth Drain off and drink up.
9 But as for me, I will declare forever, I will sing psalms to the God of Jacob.
10 And all the horns of the wicked will I cut off, But the horns of the righteous man will be exalted.

But says the wicked will be 'cut off'

The use of the word 'horns' is symbolic of the Greek 'Alaxander' and also of the philosophy of the culture.

Yes you have 2-3 proof texts which you think proves your arguments while you ignore the many others verses which prove your assumptions/presuppositions wrong.


These two back to back posts listing, and discussing, twenty eight passages spoken by Jesus, addressing the fate of the unrighteous, in the order the vss. occur in the N.T. Link!



Wait a minute! I must not have received that memo which appoints you as the authority on Jesus and the N.T. ,dictating what must be the focus, etc.





The wrong question, asked in the wrong way, for the wrong reason. The fact that God does NOT say, "I wish/desire that the wicked burn in hell." does not mean God cannot/will not punish the wicked as described in the N.T. See link to list of vss. posted above.



The word is "canon." See link to list of vss. posted above.

No need for being rude, you lack proof so need to resort to insult.

I have posted 5 posts from all over the bible that support my views,(I will follow with the original post that didn't quote) I'm under no obligation to disprove yours.


The second death is death just as the first death is sleep as you can see from the posts here

http://www.christianforums.com/t7471217-30/#post54900473

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Acts 2:1,14, 22-31
Peter presents a strong logical argument based on the words of David that Christ was delivered by God for our offences, went to hell, the grave, the condition of death, destruction, (Ps 16:10) and according to the promise of God, He was delivered from hell, grave, destruction, by resurrection, recreation, glorious and exalted to the express image of the Father (Heb 1:3) and this same Jesus (Acts 2:36) in further revelation to the church declares that:
　
Revelation 1:18
and the living one: and I became dead, and behold, I am living to the ages of ages, and have the keys of death and of hades. (the grave)
　
That's the outcome of Jesus' mission. (Zech 9:12, Lk 4:18)
　
Death was the penalty that Christ endured for the whole world. He died for our sins and also for the whole world. (1 Cor 15:3, 1 Jn 2:2)
　
Revelation 20:13-14
And the sea gave up the dead which [were] in it, and death and hades gave up the dead which [were] in them; and they were judged each according to their works:
and death and hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, [even] the lake of fire.
　
The lake of fire, like Gehenna, is the symbol of final destruction, just like the garbage dump was a part of the old Jerusalem. All a part of the same pattern. Gehenna was the place that 'corpses' went. (Is 66) and worms consumed that which didn't fall into the fire. It signified final destruction of soul and body to the people of Jerusalem, the place of graves of those that were judged unredeemable.

1 Corinthians 15:26
[The] last enemy [that] is annulled [is] death.
　
Revelation 21:4
And he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall not exist any more, nor grief, nor cry, nor distress shall exist any more, for the former things have passed away.
　
For the former things to pass away means that they will no longer exist.
　
James 3:6
and the tongue [is] fire, the world of unrighteousness; the tongue is set in our members, the defiler of the whole body, and which sets fire to the course of nature, and is set on fire of hell.
　
The tongue also carries the word of life or death. The fall is from honour and dignity and their degradation is their fruit.
　
If hell is a place of torment as Dante's inferno denotes, why does scripture declare it to be a place of darkness and unconsciousness?
(Ps 88:3-12, 6:5, 146:4 Job 10:21-22, Ecc 9:10, Isa 38:18)
　
God is able to destroy both soul and body and has declared that He will destroy the wicked, not place them in prison of torment.

(Ps 35:17, Isa 55:3, Mat 10:28, Act 3:23, Ja 3:12)
　
Matthew 16:25-26
For whosoever shall desire to save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake shall find it.
For what does a man profit, if he should gain the whole world and suffer the loss of his soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
　

Please, if you want to discuss what I've posted instead of insulting my spelling and telling me I need to discuss yours then go ahead and discuss your theory amongst yourselves or be good enough to address the posts.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

No need for being rude, you lack proof so need to resort to insult.

I have posted 5 posts from all over the bible that support my views,(I will follow with the original post that didn't quote) I'm under no obligation to disprove yours.


The second death is death just as the first death is sleep as you can see from the posts here

http://www.christianforums.com/t7471217-30/#post54900473

The second death cannot be death as in cessation of being, or consciousness, as per Matthew 25 and Rev. 14 where the smoke arises forever and ever. There needs to BE something to burn in order for the smoke to exist . . . as it arises continually . . . and Matthew didactically cites Jesus' own teaching as the state of punishment being FOREVER . . . Rev 14 cannot be construed in your citation of Psalms.
1. It is not a quote from the passage as if the author meant to say "this is that"
2. The ONLY parallel is that of the CUP
3. The progressive nature of revelation states that later revelation supercedes prior revelation. By your own standard, you should argue that there is NO such thing as resurrection because NO ONE COMES BACK in OT theology (a couple of hints here and there about life after death, but by and large no resurrection), and, saints now are unconscious should be another, but we kno per Hebrews 12 that the "great cloud of witnesses" are those of Hebrews 11, and the THRONE IS FULL OF MARTYRS CRYING OUT FOR RETRIBUTION in Revelation . . . so, OT concepts of the grave resulting in unconsciousness need to be seen in understanding the normal NON interactions between the dead and the living AS THE NT COLORS THE HERMENEUTIC about the passages as METAPHOR. Thereby, any citations of the OT concept of the cessation of the consciousness of the dead need to be understood in a proper systematic that sees revelation as progressive in nature and the later statements of the NT as the MAIN concepts to THEN IMPORT INTO OT citations.

The PROOF remains . . . the NT speaks of the concept of DEATH and the concept of CONSCIOUSNESS in that death . . . so the death is thereby METAPHOR seeking to illumine a concept of the eternal state of the wicked by means of saying, "this is LIKE that" not "this IS that." The primary understanding of the concept is found in relation TO GOD. Life is life not in that one is alive, for Eph 2 speaks of the sons of disobedience in a perpetual state of death, tho they live. Life is defined not by a heart beat or by consciousness, but by relationship to GOD. Likewise, death is not death in cessation of a heartbeat, or lack of consciousness, but is death in its understanding of the state of relationship between the person in question AND GOD, who IS life.

That being said, ALL understandings of the concepts of BOTH the reward of the righteous AND the state of the wicked, POST MORTEM or POST Resurrection, are filtered through this hermeneutic. As such, it is IMPOSSIBLE to see death as a literal cessation of consciousness because LIFE UNTO GOD IS NOT THE BEGINNING OF CONSCIOUSNESS. One is conscious EITHER WAY and this is what the passages of Matt 25 and Revelation 14, 20-21 clearly tell us.

 

[Der Alte]

No need for being rude, you lack proof so need to resort to insult.

Lack of proof if you ignore the twenty eight passages spoken by Jesus which I linked to above. Matt 3:12; 5:13, 20, 29,-30; 7:13-14; 21-23; 8:12; 10:33, 39-42; 13:49-50; 18:3-4, 8-9, 21:43; 22:2-14; 23:13, 15; 25:11-12, 41, 46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Lk 9:62; 12:45-46; 13:23-24; Luke 16:22-28; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, 18; 15:6. And OBTW you did ignore them.

I have posted 5 posts from all over the bible that support my views,(I will follow with the original post that didn't quote) I'm under no obligation to disprove yours.

Having said that I will respond in kind. I have no obligation to read or disprove anything you say. Therefore I will just point out your fallacies, errors, omissions, etc for other readers.

Here is the only one of the posts addressed to me. And I addressed every point in it, line by line.

We differ on interpretation, not on facts, of which I've pointed out numerous references to the disciples saying that death is death, not torment. Your interpretations are based on the assumption that death does not mean death.

Can you provide anything that isn't metaphoric to support that view?

When talking about Jesus and His Kingdom rule the focus has to be on His character because that is the Word that He portrays to us about God. So let's look at God's character and what He has previously taught OT about the topic.

Ezekiel 33:11
11 Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord GOD, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?

Ezekiel 18:32
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord GOD. “Therefore turn and live!”

Can you provide evidence that God says He wishes the wicked to burn in hell?

From the cannon that is common to all, please

As for your other posts note you quoted nineteen vss. written by Paul, John, Peter, and James. Evidently you want to interpret those vss. as literal and dismiss the twenty eight vss. spoken by Jesus himself as metaphor, so you can hang onto your assumptions/presuppositions. If there is an apparent difference/contradiction then Jesus is the standard! NOT Paul, John, Peter, and James.

The second death is death just as the first death is sleep as you can see from the posts here.

I think not!

Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
[ . . . ]
Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.​

Sleep is sometimes used as a metaphor for death.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

No need for being rude, you lack proof so need to resort to insult.

I have posted 5 posts from all over the bible that support my views,(I will follow with the original post that didn't quote) I'm under no obligation to disprove yours.


The second death is death just as the first death is sleep as you can see from the posts here

http://www.christianforums.com/t7471217-30/#post54900473

Tis the way of the "Beast"

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

The second death cannot be death as in cessation of being, or consciousness, as per Matthew 25 and Rev. 14 where the smoke arises forever and ever. There needs to BE something to burn in order for the smoke to exist . . . as it arises continually . . . and Matthew didactically cites Jesus' own teaching as the state of punishment being FOREVER . . . Rev 14 cannot be construed in your citation of Psalms.
1. It is not a quote from the passage as if the author meant to say "this is that"
2. The ONLY parallel is that of the CUP
3. The progressive nature of revelation states that later revelation supercedes prior revelation. By your own standard, you should argue that there is NO such thing as resurrection because NO ONE COMES BACK in OT theology (a couple of hints here and there about life after death, but by and large no resurrection), and, saints now are unconscious should be another, but we kno per Hebrews 12 that the "great cloud of witnesses" are those of Hebrews 11, and the THRONE IS FULL OF MARTYRS CRYING OUT FOR RETRIBUTION in Revelation . . . so, OT concepts of the grave resulting in unconsciousness need to be seen in understanding the normal NON interactions between the dead and the living AS THE NT COLORS THE HERMENEUTIC about the passages as METAPHOR. Thereby, any citations of the OT concept of the cessation of the consciousness of the dead need to be understood in a proper systematic that sees revelation as progressive in nature and the later statements of the NT as the MAIN concepts to THEN IMPORT INTO OT citations.

The PROOF remains . . . the NT speaks of the concept of DEATH and the concept of CONSCIOUSNESS in that death . . . so the death is thereby METAPHOR seeking to illumine a concept of the eternal state of the wicked by means of saying, "this is LIKE that" not "this IS that." The primary understanding of the concept is found in relation TO GOD. Life is life not in that one is alive, for Eph 2 speaks of the sons of disobedience in a perpetual state of death, tho they live. Life is defined not by a heart beat or by consciousness, but by relationship to GOD. Likewise, death is not death in cessation of a heartbeat, or lack of consciousness, but is death in its understanding of the state of relationship between the person in question AND GOD, who IS life.

That being said, ALL understandings of the concepts of BOTH the reward of the righteous AND the state of the wicked, POST MORTEM or POST Resurrection, are filtered through this hermeneutic. As such, it is IMPOSSIBLE to see death as a literal cessation of consciousness because LIFE UNTO GOD IS NOT THE BEGINNING OF CONSCIOUSNESS. One is conscious EITHER WAY and this is what the passages of Matt 25 and Revelation 14, 20-21 clearly tell us.

Matt 25 is the continuation of the pattern of selection. The Jews were wheat separated from the chaff, church age are wheat from tares, and the millenium is sheep from goats signified by the Lord in His glory returned or whatever it says when He judges the nations.

The sheep :35b "inherit the kingdom prepared from the beginning of the earth" having fulfilled God's law of love (Rom 13:10

in comparison to

1 Corinthians 15:25-28

25 Christ must rule until he puts all enemies under his control.26 The last enemy to be destroyed will be death.27 The Scripture says that God put all things under his control. When it says "all things" are under him, it is clear this does not include God himself. God is the One who put everything under his control.28 After everything has been put under the Son, then he will put himself under God, who had put all things under him. Then God will be the complete ruler over everything.


Which was the plan before the earth was created.


The goats go to eternal fire for being selfwilled social climbing bottom feeders.

Literally expressed in Hebrews as satan destroyed

Hebrews 2:14


14 Since these children are people with physical bodies, Jesus himself became like them. He did this so that, by dying, he could destroy the one who has the power of death—the devil

The punishment is as lasting as the rewards and the reward is saving the soul eternally.

Matthew 16:22-28



22 Peter took Jesus aside and told him not to talk like that. He said, "God save you from those things, Lord! Those things will never happen to you!"
23 Then Jesus said to Peter, "Go away from me, Satan![a] You are not helping me! You don't care about the things of God, but only about the things people think are important." 24 Then Jesus said to his followers, "If people want to follow me, they must give up the things they want. They must be willing even to give up their lives to follow me. 25 Those who want to save their lives will give up true life, and those who give up their lives for me will have true life. 26 It is worthless to have the whole world if they lose their souls. They could never pay enough to buy back their souls. 27 The Son of Man will come again with his Father's glory and with his angels. At that time, he will reward them for what they have done. 28 I tell you the truth, some people standing here will see the Son of Man coming with his kingdom before they die."

Psalm 145:20


20 The Lord protects everyone who loves him,
but he will destroy the wicked.

It's quite possibly that metaphorically the smoke rising forever would be a lesson never forgotten? Metaphors are for speculations which is why I prefer to keep to the literal to interpret them.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Lack of proof if you ignore the twenty eight passages spoken by Jesus which I linked to above. Matt 3:12; 5:13, 20, 29,-30; 7:13-14; 21-23; 8:12; 10:33, 39-42; 13:49-50; 18:3-4, 8-9, 21:43; 22:2-14; 23:13, 15; 25:11-12, 41, 46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Lk 9:62; 12:45-46; 13:23-24; Luke 16:22-28; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, 18; 15:6. And OBTW you did ignore them.



Having said that I will respond in kind. I have no obligation to read or disprove anything you say. Therefore I will just point out your fallacies, errors, omissions, etc for other readers.

Here is the only one of the posts addressed to me. And I addressed every point in it, line by line.



As for your other posts note you quoted nineteen vss. written by Paul, John, Peter, and James. Evidently you want to interpret those vss. as literal and dismiss the twenty eight vss. spoken by Jesus himself as metaphor, so you can hang onto your assumptions/presuppositions. If there is an apparent difference/contradiction then Jesus is the standard! NOT Paul, John, Peter, and James.



I think not!

Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
​

[ . . . ]
Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.
​

Sleep is sometimes used as a metaphor for death.

How To Study the Bible Topical

exerpt
Look in the right-hand column for number 7585. (This, remember, means that the Hebrew word sheol is the word being used.) This reveals the interesting fact that good men expected to go to hell! Genesis 37:35 shows that Jacob expected to go there and that he thought his favorite son was there! Job 14:13 shows that Job actually prayed to go to hell to escape God’s wrath!

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Tis the way of the "Beast"

Which is why I stay out of this type of discussion usually. No matter what you say the focus is always on something not said....::o

 

[Der Alte]

How To Study the Bible Topical

exerpt
Look in the right-hand column for number 7585. (This, remember, means that the Hebrew word sheol is the word being used.) This reveals the interesting fact that good men expected to go to hell! Genesis 37:35 shows that Jacob expected to go there and that he thought his favorite son was there! Job 14:13 shows that Job actually prayed to go to hell to escape God’s wrath!

If not topical, what would you call listing, and discussing, twenty eight passages spoken by Jesus on the topic of punishment of the unrighteous?

I am quite aware of how to study the Bible topically. I first started learning to speak Greek the year that Elvis and I were stationed in Germany. I studied both Biblical languages at the post grad level about 2 decades later along with all other Theological topics.

Interesting definition. Lets apply that definition to this vs.

Pro 23:13-14
(13) Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
(14) Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell [שׁאול/sheol].​

Will beating a child with a rod keep him for dying and being buried. Or will it raise a child in שׁאול to life?

And let us read the final sentence on the page you linked to.

This listing is still based on the idea that an examination by TOPIC is of foremost importance. From this chart, however, it is clear that topical study by itself is not always adequate to eliminate contradiction. Note the importance of two more methods of Scripture study: study of symbolic language and study by Time Frame.​

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Twenty eight (28) passages, in order they occur in the Bible, Jesus speaking on eternal punishment of the wicked.

Passages list, Matt 3:12; 5:13, 20, 29,-30; 7:13-14; 21-23; 8:12; 10:33, 39-42; 13:49-50; 18:3-4, 8-9, 21:43; 22:2-14; 23:13, 15; 25:11-12, 41, 46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Lk 9:62; 12:45-46; 13:23-24; Luke 16:22-28; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, 18; 15:6.

[1] Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
​

Refering to Israel who were banished from His favor.
​

[2] Matthew 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

Cast out as were the Israelis

[3] Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness[sup]1[/sup] shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

no fire there

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one

​

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
​

No one is qualified except those in Christ
​

[4] Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Better to do away with things that seem benifitual and of use now than to bar the way to heaven to never enter in.

[5]Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, [i.e. Kingdom of heaven, vs. 21] and few there be that find it.

See above

[6] Matt 7: 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say[sup]2[/sup] to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Sheep and goats

[7] Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I believe that refers to those who don't make the heavenly calling and are among the nations, they cry knowing that they missed opportunity

[8] Matt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

[9] Matt 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

The end of the church age, where works will be burnt.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.[/b

[10] Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

The second death at the GWT judgement. Death is thrown into the fire. The last thing to be DESTROYED

[11] Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily [αμην/amen] I say unto you, Except ye be converted[sup]3[/sup], and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

[12] Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] fire.
18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Quoted above

​

<B>

See comments on Mark 9:43-48, below.

[13] Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
​

</B>

[14] Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. * * *
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
* * *
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
​

NOTE: He destroyed the people and burnt up their city (the world system)

[15] Matt 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [the kingdom of heaven] yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

[&#8230;]
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

[16] Matt 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily, [&#945;&#956;&#951;&#957;/amen] I say unto you, I know you not.

[17] Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting [&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957;/aiónion] fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[&#8230;]
46 And these shall go away into everlasting [&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957;/aiónion] punishment: but the righteous into life eternal [&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957;/aiónion].

The rewards are everlasting and so is the punishment. There is no chance of redemption after the millenium

​

etc.

 

[SkyWriting]

Some things cannot be accepted by persuasion.
There are people who are so dominated by their natural mind, they cannot understand what the Scripture is saying about many things.

"Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged" (1Cor 2:14).

The reality of Hell comes by revelation from the Holy Spirit. When a person has not received the Holy Spirit and are trusting in their natural mind, they have little understanding of what the Gospel is all about. But when a sinner is sliding down into Hell, his eyes are opened and he sees his future as it really is, but it will be too late for him.

There is no "too late". Rejecting God is a choice. People stick with it and are aware of the fate they choose.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Matt 25 is the continuation of the pattern of selection. The Jews were wheat separated from the chaff, church age are wheat from tares, and the millenium is sheep from goats signified by the Lord in His glory returned or whatever it says when He judges the nations.

The sheep :35b "inherit the kingdom prepared from the beginning of the earth" having fulfilled God's law of love (Rom 13:10

in comparison to

1 Corinthians 15:25-28

25 Christ must rule until he puts all enemies under his control.26 The last enemy to be destroyed will be death.27 The Scripture says that God put all things under his control. When it says "all things" are under him, it is clear this does not include God himself. God is the One who put everything under his control.28 After everything has been put under the Son, then he will put himself under God, who had put all things under him. Then God will be the complete ruler over everything.


Which was the plan before the earth was created.


The goats go to eternal fire for being selfwilled social climbing bottom feeders.

Literally expressed in Hebrews as satan destroyed

Hebrews 2:14


14 Since these children are people with physical bodies, Jesus himself became like them. He did this so that, by dying, he could destroy the one who has the power of death—the devil

The punishment is as lasting as the rewards and the reward is saving the soul eternally.

Matthew 16:22-28



22 Peter took Jesus aside and told him not to talk like that. He said, "God save you from those things, Lord! Those things will never happen to you!"
23 Then Jesus said to Peter, "Go away from me, Satan![a] You are not helping me! You don't care about the things of God, but only about the things people think are important." 24 Then Jesus said to his followers, "If people want to follow me, they must give up the things they want. They must be willing even to give up their lives to follow me. 25 Those who want to save their lives will give up true life, and those who give up their lives for me will have true life. 26 It is worthless to have the whole world if they lose their souls. They could never pay enough to buy back their souls. 27 The Son of Man will come again with his Father's glory and with his angels. At that time, he will reward them for what they have done. 28 I tell you the truth, some people standing here will see the Son of Man coming with his kingdom before they die."

Psalm 145:20


20 The Lord protects everyone who loves him,
but he will destroy the wicked.

It's quite possibly that metaphorically the smoke rising forever would be a lesson never forgotten? Metaphors are for speculations which is why I prefer to keep to the literal to interpret them.

The goats go to eternal fire for being selfwilled social climbing bottom feeders.

Literally expressed in Hebrews as satan destroyed

But there is no reason to connect Hebrews and Matt. None at all. The point still remains . . . the righteous are into life eternal, the wicked into punishment eternal . . . one cannot be punished eternally if he ceases to exist . . . the punishement is finite and would then not be reconcileable with the passage.

The punishment is as lasting as the rewards and the reward is saving the soul eternally.

sister, the concept is found in QUALITY AND QUANTITY. The crux is on the dichotomy between life and punishment. It is not a punishment thats effects are forever . . . it is punishment whose quality is opposed to life, but also eternal in duration TO THE PERSON WHO COGNITIVELY EXPERIENCES it as punishment . . . hence their torment provides smoke continually. Punishment w/o cognizance of that punishment is not punishment at all . . . it is simple judgement. I dont ever see the term kolasin, historically or scripturally connected to unconsciousness. Everyone who experiences it is AWARE OF IT FOR ITS ALOTTED TIME.

It's quite possibly that metaphorically the smoke rising forever would be a lesson never forgotten?

No. Why? we are actuallized in our choices free from anything to "learn" from such things . . . we will be so immersed in the presence and person of God that such things as a "lesson to not be forgotten" will be meaningless.

No, it is what it says it is. It is the deserved lot of those who reject the greatest work and expression of love and justice ever given . . . the cross of Jesus Christ.

Further, it is not metaphor because the concept is FOLLOWED by a metaphor

Rev 14:10-11
10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
NASU

The literal concept is "smoke of torment goes up forever and ever" and the IMMEDIATE parallel metaphor is "no rest day and night" . . . the usage of metaphor to EXPLAIN the smoke of the torment makes smoke of the torment NOT A METAPHOR. It is "this IS that" where "this" is the metaphor (no rest et al) and "that" is the substance to which the metaphor applies (which is the smoke of their torment et al).

Understand, these statements:

Rev 21:25-27
25 In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; 26 and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; 27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
NASU
Rev 22:14-15
4 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.
NASU


Assume the existence of those who are evil as STILL AROUND SOMEWHERE even after the New Jerusalem descends. These statements make NO SENSE if those who are prohibited by the text are really not existant at all . . . but rather have already been burnt and no longer exist.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

But there is no reason to connect Hebrews and Matt. None at all. The point still remains . . . the righteous are into life eternal, the wicked into punishment eternal . . . one cannot be punished eternally if he ceases to exist . . . the punishement is finite and would then not be reconcileable with the passage.

Assuming one scripture that deals with the same theme has no relevance on another of the same theme is what makes no sence.

sister, the concept is found in QUALITY AND QUANTITY. The crux is on the dichotomy between life and punishment. It is not a punishment thats effects are forever . . . it is punishment whose quality is opposed to life, but also eternal in duration TO THE PERSON WHO COGNITIVELY EXPERIENCES it as punishment . . . hence their torment provides smoke continually. Punishment w/o cognizance of that punishment is not punishment at all . . . it is simple judgement. I dont ever see the term kolasin, historically or scripturally connected to unconsciousness. Everyone who experiences it is AWARE OF IT FOR ITS ALOTTED TIME.

So, what's wrong with judgement? If the offenders of the OT were punished with death and not torture why would God change?

No. Why? we are actuallized in our choices free from anything to "learn" from such things . . . we will be so immersed in the presence and person of God that such things as a "lesson to not be forgotten" will be meaningless.

No, it is what it says it is. It is the deserved lot of those who reject the greatest work and expression of love and justice ever given . . . the cross of Jesus Christ.

The time of learning extends to the millenium, I don't believe that the wicked would be deemed learnable after that.

Further, it is not metaphor because the concept is FOLLOWED by a metaphor

Brother, the whole of Revelations is metaphoric

Rev 14:10-11
10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
NASU

The literal concept is "smoke of torment goes up forever and ever" and the IMMEDIATE parallel metaphor is "no rest day and night" . . . the usage of metaphor to EXPLAIN the smoke of the torment makes smoke of the torment NOT A METAPHOR. It is "this IS that" where "this" is the metaphor (no rest et al) and "that" is the substance to which the metaphor applies (which is the smoke of their torment et al).

Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. * * *
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
* * *
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

NOTE: He destroyed the people and burnt up their city (the world system)

That is what is to be understood.

​

Understand, these statements:

Rev 21:25-27
25 In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; 26 and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; 27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life

Rev 22:14-15
4 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.
NASU


Assume the existence of those who are evil as STILL AROUND SOMEWHERE even after the New Jerusalem descends. These statements make NO SENSE if those who are prohibited by the text are really not existant at all . . . but rather have already been burnt and no longer exist.

Before eternity ie: the great white throne judgement, the second death isn't even in effect. After the second death comes the new heaven and new earth. Not sure what your saying?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

While I admit there is much more to the resurrection than can be explained in the topic of hell, there are too many scripture references that I've posted that can't be discounted because of metaphoric interpretations. If you wish to discuss these in this thread then welcome to it.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7463551-37/#post54906820


http://www.christianforums.com/t7463551-37/#post54906801


but to discuss dispensational ages under the context of a metaphor that is useful only to those who have used it as a means of control thru fear is really not worth getting into.


Instead go back to the post of Psalms and delve into the meaning of the horn that was associated with the first antichrist during the time of the Maccabees. That would prove more useful.

Or check over the tens of scripture supporting death as meaning death that I provided.
Or start a new thread on the topic of what came first, because this thread is all over the board.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Which is why I stay out of this type of discussion usually. No matter what you say the focus is always on something not said....::o

When you play chess, are you like my youngest brother who when he thinks he might be losing accidently upsets the board?

Our intelligent and resourceful researchers are awaiting your reply
:o

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

There is no "too late". Rejecting God is a choice. People stick with it and are aware of the fate they choose.

The review panel needs clarification of your comment to make it more understandable. :o