Let's Talk About Hell

[Der Alte]

What about during and after the divine siege/destruction of OC Jerusalem by Titus and the Roman army?

The destruction of body and soul in gehenna | collaborative theology for the emerging church

*snip*

....Just as the bodies of Jerusalem’s dead were thrown into the Valley of Hinnom when the Babylonians attacked, so Jesus imagines the dead piling up in the valley of gehenna during the war against Rome. What the prophet Jesus imagines the historian Josephus describes:

Now the seditious at first gave orders that the dead should be buried out of the public treasury, as not enduring the stench of their dead bodies. But afterwards, when they could not do that, they had them cast down from the walls into the valleys beneath. (War 5.12.3).

A somewhat interesting opinion by some unknown writer but no scriptural evidence for the assumption. At the time of Jesus Gehenna represented the place of puishment of the wicked. See the Talmud the teaching of the two major Rabbinical schools in Jerusalem at the time of Jesus, Hillel and Shammai.

Talmud – Tractate Rosh Hashanah

We have learned in a Boraitha: The school of Shammai said: There are three divisions of mankind at the Resurrection: the wholly righteous, the utterly wicked, and the average class. The wholly righteous are at once inscribed, and life is decreed for them; the utterly wicked are at once inscribed, and destined for Gehenna, as we read [Dan. xii. 2]: "And many of them that sleep in the dust shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." The third class, the men between the former two, descend to Gehenna, but they weep and come up again, in accordance with the passage [Zech. xiii. 9]: "And I will bring the third part through the fire, and I will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried; and he shall call on My name, and I will answer him."

Concerning this last class of men Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 6]: "The Lord causeth to die and maketh alive, He bringeth down to the grave and bringeth up again." The school of Hillel says: The Merciful One inclines (the scale of justice) to the side of mercy, and of this third class of men David says [Psalms, cxvi. 1]: "It is lovely to me that the Lord heareth my voice"; in fact, David applies to them the Psalm mentioned down to the words, "Thou hast delivered my soul from death" [ibid. 8].

Transgressors of Jewish birth and also of non-Jewish birth, who sin with their body descend to Gehenna, and are judged there for twelve months; after that time their bodies are destroyed and burnt, and the winds scatter their ashes under the soles of the feet of the righteous, as we read [Mal. iii. 23]: "And ye shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be as ashes under the soles of your feet"; but as for Minim, informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces." R. Itz'hac b. Abhin says: "Their faces are black like the sides of a caldron"; while Rabha remarked: "Those who are now the handsomest of the people of Me'huzza will yet be called the children of Gehenna."

Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus *snip*
What about during and after the divine siege/destruction of OC Jerusalem by Titus and the Roman army?

The destruction of body and soul in gehenna | collaborative theology for the emerging church

*snip*

A somewhat interesting opinion by some unknown writer but no scriptural evidence for the assumption. At the time of Jesus Gehenna represented the place of puishment of the wicked. See the Talmud the teaching of the two major Rabbinical schools in Jerusalem at the time of Jesus, Hillel and Shammai.

Thanks for that link bro.
The reason I brought up that sight [which I found on a google search], is because I have the rather "unique" view of OC Jerusalem being the "Lake of Fire"
I have a thread on it over here

Notice the phrase "bodies and souls of men" in 18:13

http://www.christianforums.com/t7434988/
OC Jerusalem and Lake of Fire

Reve 18:8 because of this in one day shall be arriving the blows of Her, death and mourning and famine and in fire She shall be being burned-down that strong *Lord the God, the One-judging Her.
10 From afar having stood because of the fear of the torment of Her saying "woe! woe! the City the great Babylon the City the strong, that to-one/*in hour came the judging of Thee.
13 and cinnamon and incenses and attars and frankincense and wine and oil and flour and grain and beasts and flocks and of horses and of chariots and of bodies and souls of men.

 

[ShermanN]

The typical false religion deliberate twisting and misrepresenting scripture. This passage says nothing about believers being in the fire! Why would any forgiven believer ever be punished in fire, was not the atonement of Jesus enough?

If you'll notice, scriptures that speak of judgment are based upon what we do, not upon the atonement. Salvation is based upon the Atonement. And there is a vast difference between Remedial Punishment (punishment meant to bring about a positive change in the one being punished) and vindictive punishment (punishment meant to vent the unforgiveness of the offended party). Though I forgive my children, for their own good I punish them for their own good. It's the punishment of a loving father that helps us assume responsibility for the things we've done.

It always amazes me that many believers apply scriptures that speak of judgment and punishment to others, but not to themselves. We all shall give an account for the things we've done in our lives and be punished as is needed for the healing of our souls. Jesus' comments concerning Gehenna affirm this strongly. Sadly, many people apply them to others, but not to themselves.

You try to make this passage apply to anybody, everybody but you failed to note that it specifically refers to, "if any man build upon this foundation" vs. 12, and "If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon.", vs. 14 The "any man" vs. 15 is the same "any man" who has built on the foundation vss. 12 and 14, NOT any man in history! This is further supported by vss. 16 and 17. Paul is NOT talking to, or about, all mankind but those who have built on the foundation of Jesus Christ and who are the temple of God because God's spirit dwells in them.

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
​

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
​

Note that vs. 17 again refers to "any man" but qualifies it as those who are the temple of God NOT all mankind.

We're all created in the image of God. The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof. Jesus died for all of humanity, ransoming us all by His blood. All of mankind belongs to the Lord. When you look at people, do you not see them as beloved of God too, though they have not yet experienced reconciliation with God as you and I have!

A lot of irrelevant Saccharin coated platitudes which do NOT address my questions at all. I am well aware of what God has done and can do but nothing you said addresses or explains about the attitude, feelings, reactions, etc. of those who have been punished for any length of time. In this life, as I said, rapists, robbers, murderers, etc., by and large, do not assume responsibility for their actions, they blame everybody but themselves and once out of prison, most of them return to the same lifestyle. Where in your Bible does it state these same psychopaths suddenly become model citizens after being punished by God? Or in your scenario does God wipe their memories clean and reprogram them to be good citizens? If, so what was the purpose of the punishment? If the person has no knowledge of it?

Actually, my Bible is the same as yours. Please, there really is not need to be sarcastic, demeaning, or inflamatory in your replys. Maybe your faith in the fires of hell are making your posts inflammatory! (Of course I only jest a little.)

Many people, many "psychopaths", even in this life, after receiving the revelation of the Atonement of Christ, the love of God, and God's judgment concerning their sin are radically changed, repent, having their memories cleansed and their hearts reprogramed. If the revelation of the Atonement works that in our hearts in this life, how much more in the life to come. Salvation is completely by grace, not from us in any way.

But of course, we're getting off topic. This thread is about "Hell", and as I've pointed out, there is not one word in all of Scripture that is correctly translated as Hell, not Sheol, not Hades, not Gehenna. Not even Tartaroo should be interpreted Hell for though Tartaroo specifically means a realm of torture it is only used to speak of sinning angels that are held there until judgment; it is not used for humans and it is not even noted to be endless.

I've experienced the judgment of God. It is terrible, but it is liberating. The judgment of God forces one to look at one's self in truth. And truth burns deception and evil from us, liberating us to live in the grace, forgiveness and love of God. For loved ones, this was the understanding of Gehenna amoung Jews; it was understood to be Remedial in nature for the average person, especially loved ones - and this was without the revelation of the Atonement, God's love for and grace towards all of humanity. How much more should we trust in God today as believers in Christ, having embraced the love of God for ourselves and for all of humanity!

Concerning passages that speak of people experiencing such liberation in the afterlife, not only do the passages where Jesus speaks of Gehenna do so, but so does 1 Pet. 3 & 4 where Peter notes that Jesus when He died went and preached to the spirits in prison, even those who died during the time of Noah, the most wicked and evil generation of all time. 4:6 says, "For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit." Note the remedial nature of this judgment. And of course, this is all in the context of the Atonement of Christ. 3:18 "For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit".

Jesus Christ is the savior of all humanity, especially we who believe. 1 Tim. 4.10. The sin of Adam plunged us all into sin and death, but the sacrifice of Christ, the Atonement, delivers us all from sin and death into righteousness and life! Rom.5.18 Hallelujah! Love never fails!

 

[Der Alte]

The typical false religion deliberate twisting and misrepresenting scripture. This passage says nothing about believers being in the fire! Why would any forgiven believer ever be punished in fire, was not the atonement of Jesus enough?

If you'll notice, scriptures that speak of judgment are based upon what we do, not upon the atonement. Salvation is based upon the Atonement. And there is a vast difference between Remedial Punishment (punishment meant to bring about a positive change in the one being punished) and vindictive punishment (punishment meant to vent the unforgiveness of the offended party). Though I forgive my children, for their own good I punish them for their own good. It's the punishment of a loving father that helps us assume responsibility for the things we've done.

Please show me the scripture where forgiven Christians continue to be punished in this lifetime or in the hereafter? If a person, Christian or otherwise, commits a sin and does not repent, yes. And of course repetition of what you believe does NOT address my post.

It always amazes me that many believers apply scriptures that speak of judgment and punishment to others, but not to themselves. We all shall give an account for the things we've done in our lives and be punished as is needed for the healing of our souls. Jesus' comments concerning Gehenna affirm this strongly. Sadly, many people apply them to others, but not to themselves.

Once again please show me the scripture where Christians who repent of their sins continue to be punished in this life, and in the hereafter? Your interpretation of Mark 9:49 and 1 Cor 3:15 requires that all people, including Christians who have repented and been forgiven, to be punished by fire after the judgment, despite what scripture says. Your repeated claims about what Jesus meant, about Gehenna, without citing specific scripture is meaningless.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.​

Jesus paid it all, all to him I owe his blood has left a crimson stain that washes white as snow.

We're all created in the image of God. The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof. Jesus died for all of humanity, ransoming us all by His blood. All of mankind belongs to the Lord. When you look at people, do you not see them as beloved of God too, though they have not yet experienced reconciliation with God as you and I have!

More platitudes! Irrelevant what I "see" or what I "think." This does NOT address my repeated question about the attitudes, feelings, reactions of unrepentant, recalcitrant people once they have been punished in fire and then released, I guess into paradise.

Many people, many "psychopaths", even in this life, after receiving the revelation of the Atonement of Christ, the love of God, and God's judgment concerning their sin are radically changed, repent, having their memories cleansed and their hearts reprogramed. If the revelation of the Atonement works that in our hearts in this life, how much more in the life to come. Salvation is completely by grace, not from us in any way.

Your broad brush "many 'psychopaths', even in this life" is deliberately misleading. People in prison have a 67.5 recidivism rate. Please show me the scripture where unrepentant, recalcitrant rapists, robbers, murderers, etc. are released from the place of "eternal" punishment, by whatever name you choose to call it, into paradise, and have, "their memories cleansed and their hearts reprogrammed?" If that is true what is the purpose of the punishment? True, we go through chastisement in this life before we repent, but it does NOT in any way approach the severity of the punishment faced in hell.

But of course, we're getting off topic. This thread is about "Hell", and as I've pointed out, there is not one word in all of Scripture that is correctly translated as Hell, not Sheol, not Hades, not Gehenna. Not even Tartaroo should be interpreted Hell for though Tartaroo specifically means a realm of torture it is only used to speak of sinning angels that are held there until judgment; it is not used for humans and it is not even noted to be endless.

This argument was irrelevant the first time you posted it and it still is. The concept of hell is clearly taught in both testaments.

I've experienced the judgment of God. It is terrible, but it is liberating. The judgment of God forces one to look at one's self in truth. And truth burns deception and evil from us, liberating us to live in the grace, forgiveness and love of God.

See my previous response. True, we go through chastisement in this life before we repent, but it does NOT in any way approach the severity of the punishment faced in hell.

For loved ones, this was the understanding of Gehenna amoung Jews; it was understood to be Remedial in nature for the average person, especially loved ones - and this was without the revelation of the Atonement, God's love for and grace towards all of humanity. How much more should we trust in God today as believers in Christ, having embraced the love of God for ourselves and for all of humanity!

Lets just forget about all those whom the Jews believed would be consigned to Gehenna, equivalent to our hell, to be punished forever, eternally, without end. Will it go away if we ignore it?

Concerning passages that speak of people experiencing such liberation in the afterlife, not only do the passages where Jesus speaks of Gehenna do so, but so does 1 Pet. 3 & 4 where Peter notes that Jesus when He died went and preached to the spirits in prison, even those who died during the time of Noah, the most wicked and evil generation of all time. 4:6 says, "For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit." Note the remedial nature of this judgment. And of course, this is all in the context of the Atonement of Christ. 3:18 "For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit".

Two out-of-context proof texts which do NOT say what you claim! Preaching to the souls in prison was part of his earthly ministry, Luke 4:18, "to preach deliverance to the captives." Hell is never called prison and prison is never called hell in scripture. Yes, "the gospel was preached [past tense] even to those who are now [present tense] dead." And you have not shown one vs. where Jesus stated or implied that "eternal punishment" was remedial!

Jesus Christ is the savior of all humanity, especially we who believe. 1 Tim. 4.10. The sin of Adam plunged us all into sin and death, but the sacrifice of Christ, the Atonement, delivers us all from sin and death into righteousness and life! Rom.5.18 Hallelujah! Love never fails!

Quoting scripture out-of-context and shouting hallelujah does NOT make your argument true.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.​

All mankind is in Adam by the fact we are physically descended from him. There is nothing we can do about it. But only those who are "in" Christ shall be made alive. Being "in" Christ is not automatic.

Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily [αμην/amen] I say unto you, Except ye be converted and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.​

Please show me scripture where anyone has been or will be converted after death?

 

[SkyWriting]

Why would the text tell us that he has the ability to DESTROY BOTH BODY AND SOUL in hell if that is not what he will do?

If you are asserting this is a way to avoid eternal punishment,
then why would this be scary?

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

The typical false religion deliberate twisting and misrepresenting scripture. This passage says nothing about believers being in the fire! Why would any forgiven believer ever be punished in fire, was not the atonement of Jesus enough?

If you'll notice, scriptures that speak of judgment are based upon what we do, not upon the atonement. Salvation is based upon the Atonement. And there is a vast difference between Remedial Punishment (punishment meant to bring about a positive change in the one being punished) and vindictive punishment (punishment meant to vent the unforgiveness of the offended party). Though I forgive my children, for their own good I punish them for their own good. It's the punishment of a loving father that helps us assume responsibility for the things we've done.

It always amazes me that many believers apply scriptures that speak of judgment and punishment to others, but not to themselves. We all shall give an account for the things we've done in our lives and be punished as is needed for the healing of our souls. Jesus' comments concerning Gehenna affirm this strongly. Sadly, many people apply them to others, but not to themselves.



We're all created in the image of God. The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof. Jesus died for all of humanity, ransoming us all by His blood. All of mankind belongs to the Lord. When you look at people, do you not see them as beloved of God too, though they have not yet experienced reconciliation with God as you and I have!



Actually, my Bible is the same as yours. Please, there really is not need to be sarcastic, demeaning, or inflamatory in your replys. Maybe your faith in the fires of hell are making your posts inflammatory! (Of course I only jest a little.)

Many people, many "psychopaths", even in this life, after receiving the revelation of the Atonement of Christ, the love of God, and God's judgment concerning their sin are radically changed, repent, having their memories cleansed and their hearts reprogramed. If the revelation of the Atonement works that in our hearts in this life, how much more in the life to come. Salvation is completely by grace, not from us in any way.

But of course, we're getting off topic. This thread is about "Hell", and as I've pointed out, there is not one word in all of Scripture that is correctly translated as Hell, not Sheol, not Hades, not Gehenna. Not even Tartaroo should be interpreted Hell for though Tartaroo specifically means a realm of torture it is only used to speak of sinning angels that are held there until judgment; it is not used for humans and it is not even noted to be endless.

I've experienced the judgment of God. It is terrible, but it is liberating. The judgment of God forces one to look at one's self in truth. And truth burns deception and evil from us, liberating us to live in the grace, forgiveness and love of God. For loved ones, this was the understanding of Gehenna amoung Jews; it was understood to be Remedial in nature for the average person, especially loved ones - and this was without the revelation of the Atonement, God's love for and grace towards all of humanity. How much more should we trust in God today as believers in Christ, having embraced the love of God for ourselves and for all of humanity!

Concerning passages that speak of people experiencing such liberation in the afterlife, not only do the passages where Jesus speaks of Gehenna do so, but so does 1 Pet. 3 & 4 where Peter notes that Jesus when He died went and preached to the spirits in prison, even those who died during the time of Noah, the most wicked and evil generation of all time. 4:6 says, "For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit." Note the remedial nature of this judgment. And of course, this is all in the context of the Atonement of Christ. 3:18 "For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit".

Jesus Christ is the savior of all humanity, especially we who believe. 1 Tim. 4.10. The sin of Adam plunged us all into sin and death, but the sacrifice of Christ, the Atonement, delivers us all from sin and death into righteousness and life! Rom.5.18 Hallelujah! Love never fails!

If you'll notice, scriptures that speak of judgment are based upon what we do, not upon the atonement.

Not according to the concept of the mercy seat in Hebrews or the usage of ilasterion in propitiating judgement of wrath. Sorry. You are wrong. Your contention is only PART of the picture.

Jesus Christ is the savior of all humanity, especially we who believe. 1 Tim. 4.10.

See the word "especially"? it is malista . . . meaning PARTICULARLY . . . the title of "savior of all humanity" PARTICULALRY applies to "those who believe" . . . sorry but this verse does not teach universalism dude.

 

[Duckybill]

Those without faith and unbelieving will spend eternity with Satan in the Lake of Fire.

That is my understanding also.

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Lulav Those without faith and unbelieving will spend eternity with Satan in the Lake of Fire.

That is my understanding also.

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

Matthew 3:9 "And no ye should be thinking to say in yeselves 'a father we are having the Abraham'.
For I am saying unto ye, that is able the God, out of the stones these, to raise-up children to the Abraham.

Luke 16:24 And he sounding said "Father Abraham! be thou merciful to-me! and send Lazarus!.........

Luke 16:26 And upon all of these between us and ye a great chasm hath been established...........

 

[SkyWriting]

I have heard this before and I dont think that it is reconcilable with Scripture.

Reason:

The wrath of God for sinners is an objective reality . . . it is not an internal self imposed reality (Romans 5).

Also there is no such thing as "not with God" He permeates EVERYTHING . . . there IS, however, in favor with God and out of favor with God.

But the biggest issue is that the wrath and torment is an objective reality apart from the person . . . this being the case, the "suffering" in hell is not merely of the persons own making.

Luke 16 does not allow this either.

Oh...I think all of reality is in our "mind" at this point in life.
Your "permeates EVERYTHING" is not accurate.
Jesus was crucified because of such talk....but He was only referring to His own body, not the rest of the cosmos around Him.
The Creator and the created are two separate things.
God can not have direct contact with our world because it is not perfect and his touch would/will destroy it. That's why He sent His Son in the mean time to give us an opt-out.

If Hell is a created place, God will not be there. Nothing suggests He will.
You will have to be more specific in your objections.

 

[SkyWriting]

And I trust you realize the reason people die the first death is because of sin; ever heard of Adam and Eve?

Stryder, Christians will die because of sin. Their bodies are mortal, because of sin. Yet they are going to receive life. Right? What's so difficult about it?

They will be getting "life" without God. A proper punishment for eternity. But one of choice, just like on earth.....except without any pleasurable benefits like we have here. No hell buddies either.

 

[Der Alte]

This is a logical fallacy, "Poisoning the well" "Nothing at this site is reliable because it is like "X" which is bad." Had you bothered to actually read the articles it cites the Talmud several times. And OBTW the Talmud is available free at, at least, two websites, Come-and_hear and Sacred Texts.

Neither Judaism 101 nor your explanation mention that ancient Judaism believed that there were many who would be punished forever, without end. Long before the time of Jesus, as the J101 article indicates, Gehinnom was used to refer to the place of eternal punishment and since Jesus NEVER mentions anyone returning from Gehenna, that is how he used the term.

There is no evidence that Gehenna was still a garbage dump at the time of Jesus.

Ok, by your answers to me and everyone else on this thread I can see that you can't discuss this rationally. If you want to call names, cast dispersions, you will have to do it without me present. [ . . . ] But this is no reason to attack everyone that is posting on this subject. I have to wonder what has you so worried that you are reacting like this?

This is a false accusation! Where have I called you or anyone else a name? Where have I attacked anyone! I am very careful to address the argument.

I will pray for your comfort in your eternal rest.

Thank you.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

This is a false accusation! Where have I called you or anyone else a name? Where have I attacked anyone! I am very careful to address the argument.



Thank you.

GJ on the edit brother!

 

[Duckybill]

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

Matthew 3:9 "And no ye should be thinking to say in yeselves 'a father we are having the Abraham'.
For I am saying unto ye, that is able the God, out of the stones these, to raise-up children to the Abraham.

Luke 16:24 And he sounding said "Father Abraham! be thou merciful to-me! and send Lazarus!.........

Luke 16:26 And upon all of these between us and ye a great chasm hath been established...........

Which translation are you quoting?

 

[heritage36]

You are on the right track with the not believing in the fiery torment part! However, hell in general does not exist if you read into it and the translations. It is almost always a poor translation to english of the word "Gehenna" in the new testament, and gehenna was a garbage heap that worthless things went to. It just means we are disgarded and not resurrected, not that we get tormented or anything like that, God does not take joy in that type of thing

 

[Pythons]

You are on the right track with the not believing in the fiery torment part! However, hell in general does not exist if you read into it and the translations. It is almost always a poor translation to english of the word "Gehenna" in the new testament, and gehenna was a garbage heap that worthless things went to. It just means we are disgarded and not resurrected, not that we get tormented or anything like that, God does not take joy in that type of thing

That's simply the Adventist interpretation. The common Jew on the ground at the time of Christ viewed it like this.

Only the very righteous go directly to Gan Eden. The average person descends to a place of punishment and/or purification, generally referred to as Gehinnom (guh-hee-NOHM) (in Yiddish, Gehenna), but sometimes as She'ol or by other names.

This is what Paul believed along with the other Apostles. The Sadducees did not have the same concept as the Pharisees and Jesus rebukes them for their great error.

 

[Der Alte]

You are on the right track with the not believing in the fiery torment part! However, hell in general does not exist if you read into it and the translations. It is almost always a poor translation to english of the word "Gehenna" in the new testament, and gehenna was a garbage heap that worthless things went to. It just means we are disgarded and not resurrected, not that we get tormented or anything like that, God does not take joy in that type of thing

Here is a quotation from the Talmud showing that both Rabbinical schools in Israel in the 1st century, Hillel and Shammai, at the time of Christ, believed in a place of eternal punishment for the wicked.

Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

R. Kruspedai said in the name of R. Johanan: Three books are opened on New Year's Day: one for the utterly wicked, one for the wholly good, and one for the average class of people. The wholly righteous are at once inscribed, and life is decreed for them; the entirely wicked are at once inscribed, and destruction destined for them; the average class are held in the balance from New Year's Day till the Day of Atonement; if they prove themselves worthy they are inscribed for life, if not they are inscribed for destruction. Said R. Abhin: Whence this teaching? From the passage [Psalms, lxix. 29]: "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and they shall not be written down with the righteous."
We have learned in a Boraitha: The school of Shammai said: There are three divisions of mankind at the Resurrection: the wholly righteous, the utterly wicked, and the average class. The wholly righteous are at once inscribed, and life is decreed for them; the utterly wicked are at once inscribed, and destined for Gehenna, as we read [Dan. xii. 2]: "And many of them that sleep in the dust shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." The third class, the men between the former two, descend to Gehenna, but they weep and come up again, in accordance with the passage [Zech. xiii. 9]: "And I will bring the third part through the fire, and I will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried; and he shall call on My name, and I will answer him." p. 27
[paragraph continues] Concerning this last class of men Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 6]: "The Lord causeth to die and maketh alive, He bringeth down to the grave and bringeth up again." The school of Hillel says: The Merciful One inclines (the scale of justice) to the side of mercy, and of this third class of men David says [Psalms, cxvi. 1]: "It is lovely to me that the Lord heareth my voice"; in fact, David applies to them the Psalm mentioned down to the words, "Thou hast delivered my soul from death" [ibid. 8].
Transgressors of Jewish birth and also of non-Jewish birth, who sin with their body descend to Gehenna, and are judged there for twelve months; after that time their bodies are destroyed and burnt, and the winds scatter their ashes under the soles of the feet of the righteous, as we read [Mal. iii. 23]: "And ye shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be as ashes under the soles of your feet"; but as for Minim, informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces." R. Itz'hac b. Abhin says: "Their faces are black like the sides of a caldron"; while Rabha remarked: "Those who are now the handsomest of the people of Me'huzza will yet be called the children of Gehenna."

Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
​

 

[RND]

Personally, I wouldn't put too much weight on the Talmud....its readers still reject the Messiah. Talmud Lies Talmud Deceptions Talmud Blasphemy

 

[Der Alte]

Personally, I wouldn't put too much weight on the Talmud....its readers still reject the Messiah. * Link omitted*

I can't think of why I should care what you put much weight on. Just because some anonymous dood posts some antisemitic hate mongering on his website does not make it true. The fact that the ancient Jews did NOT accept Jesus as the Messiah is totally irrelevant to this discussion. They were only fulfilling prophecy and according to Paul, Romans 10-11, they are still God's chosen people and will be saved. Lastly the only valid source for Jewish beliefs and practices are their historical writings NOT some anonymous hate mongering antisemitic website.

 

[chingchang]

If you are asserting this is a way to avoid eternal punishment,
then why would this be scary?

I don't understand what you are asking. Rephrase?

CC

 

[chingchang]

There is no instance because the time to start the endless torture has not yet come

My point is that God does not torture...he destroys. That fact is revealed in the Bible and is clear.

AH HA! And herein lies the error in your presupposition. I would submit to you that your concept of LOVE is erroneous . . . you have imported into the text what YOU think love is and have COMPLETELY disregarded the other character traits of God that He is also 100% while still loving. IOW in His love he is also COMPLETELY righteous and HOLY . . . and your understanding of the WORTH of God is in error because you do not see sin correctly in its primary understanding in relating to SMEARING THE WORTH AND VALUE OF JESUS HIMSELF. You do not get the height of the sin, but are merely understanding its breadth.

So, your presupposition is coloring your understanding.

I was going with Paul's definition of love in Corinthians 13. You...obviously...think love is compatible with endless torture.

Lets start here, why does Jesus need to be God to atone for sin? Why not some mere man? Perhaps we can work from here on a proper hermeneutic on sin in relation to Gods glory and then we can talk about appropriate punishment for sin for a God who is also loving.

That makes NO sense...you can keep your amateur theology which has obviously resulted in false doctrine.

Couldnt be further from the truth . . . do you think that Jesus suffering on the Cross was joyous? Was it pleasant? The issue is not does the consequences of sin require that God be wrathful towards us (burning fury and indignation . . . what you have so eloquently called "torture" . . . which is not a fair term anyway), but HOW LONG DOES THAT WRATHFUL FURY LAST. Agreed?

Well...I know for certain that it isn't endless torture...it is a process that brings about complete and utter destruction. I know this because that is what the Bible teaches...plainly. This is implied in Matthew and Jude. This character trait of Yahweh is revealed in several major OT examples. Yahweh destroys...he does NOT torture. How long does the process of destruction last? I don't know...but I know there is an end to it. Chaff gets burned-up...there is nothing left.

Do you have ears to hear?

CC