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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
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I see several insults in this tirade but nothing of substance, just a lot of unsupported opinions. Only one sentence addresses my posts in a vague way. If there is a matrix of lies then it started in Judaism long before Christianity. The Jews before and during the time of Christ believed there was a place prepared by God for the eternal, unending, fiery punishment of the unrighteous and they called it Gehenna and Sheol. More of my previous posts on this topic.

Two posts, back to back, twenty eight passages spoken by Jesus in the order they occur in the N.T., addressing eternal punishment. Click Link!

Previous post, from the Jewish Encyclopedia, the Jewish view of eternal, unending punishment of the unrighteous. Click Link!

Previous post citing the Talmud, the teaching of Hillel and Shammai in Israel, at the time of Jesus, teaching on eternal punishment. Click Link!
 
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Hairy Tic

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## I think that the fire of hell will be inside the damned. It won't be of chemical flames, because that goes out.

The weird thing is that threads about Hell never mention the real torment of Hell; fire is nothing in comparison with the loss of God. All the other punishment is secondary, & trivial.
But because most Christians are atheists, this doesn't bother us.
 
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Hairy Tic

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## If most of us are damned, what's the point of bothering with tiresome stuff like self-denial ? If we are done for, whatever we do, it makes far better sense to ignore all this Christian stuff, with its laws, prohibitions, hang-ups, threats, commands, mind-bending difficulties, & so on. We might as well enjoy this life, seeing that we won't enjoy the next. Christianity is far too negative & gloomy - it sucks the joy out of life like a vampire. If Christians were exceptional because they alone on earth did no-one harm but only good, that would be strongly in its favour - but they are as ghastly as anyone else; if not more so.

Preaching a dysevangelion of despair is a good way of destroying Christianity.
Apparently most people can have "assurance of damnation".

## If salvation is so impossible, why bother with it ? The reaction of a lot of people to this kind of Christianity can probably be summed up as "A plague on [all] your houses".

STM that Christianity will be dead and gone within 500 years' time - it's run out of places to hide. All the contradictions & difficulties in its ideas are catching up with it, and its crimes are well-known. As for the notion of a god, that has no function now - in the future, with the progress of Science, it will have even less. It was reasonable to posit gods for natural phenomena, 5,000 years ago - but no longer; the world is too well understood for that to be necessary. Religion, including Christianity, is on an IVD, and when that is unplugged, it's done for - because it has nothing to offer except the same old stale ideas. It was seen as accounting for everything, which is why nothing remains for it to account for.
 
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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
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We know what several modern religious groups, which are represented on this forum, and which did not exist until 1845 or later, believe about Hell. That is irrelevant! What did the 1st century Jews, Jesus was talking to understand when he said,
  • "You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.", Matt 5:22
  • "thy whole body should be cast into hell," Matt 5:29,
  • "And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Matt 13:49,
  • "cast into everlasting fire," Matt 18:8,
  • "Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth," Matt 22:2
  • "twofold more the child of hell than yourselves," Matt 23:13
  • "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire," Matt 25:41, 46
  • "go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" Mar 9:43 - 48, (3X)
  • "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth," Luk 13;28,
  • "in hell [ . . . ] tormented in this flame . . . place of torment." Luke 16:19-31
  • "cast them into the fire, and they are burned," John 15:6
the Jews understood him to be talking about Gehenna/Hades a place prepared by God for the eternal, unending punishment of the unrighteous! See links to 2 previous posts, above for documentation.
 
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Der Alte

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Is that why you identify yourself as a Christian and post on a Christians Only forum? Makes me think of something I read somewhere. "If you were on trial for being a Christian, is there enough evidence to convict you?"
 
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Hairy Tic

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Here is a good article I found online:
Do you believe in a Fiery Hell of Torment? Is there really a place where wicked and sinful people go to be punished after death by being burned alive forever and ever? Is this the act of an almighty God? Would he actually do something like that?
## If God is Love, and man has free will to make choices that are significant for his life, then man can say "no" to God's "Yes". And if he dies in this state, that is it. God's Love is what makes damnation possible. A less loving God would have made robots, beings unable to reject Him. As for the fire: maybe that is God's Love, experienced back-to-front, not - the right way round - as fullness of love & joy and life and fellowship and peace, but as unbearable torment. So maybe God is Hell, Heaven, Purgatory, depending on the person affected, & their capacity to known Him as He is.
## The vast majority of Christians are not Protestants, & don't read an English Protestant Bible from 1611/1769. So - "most Christians" ? That is unlikely.
## Babylonian & Assyrian beliefs did not include belief in a Hell, if by that is meant a place of post mortem punishment. Jewish belief in Sheol, & Greek references to Hades, are far more similar to B & A beliefs. IIRC, Buddhist heavens & hells are temporary - someone who is better informed will no doubt correct this.

The quotation on page 581 is based on a misunderstanding of a well-known Assyrian tablet, which shows a sick man attended by semi-divine beings called apkallus. It can be found as figure 45 in "Queries to the Sun-God", translated & edited by Ivan Starr. The lower register shows the evil goddess Lamashtu - as she was a plague-bringer, it was reasonable to show the protective figures of the fish-apkallu around the bed of the sick man. Starr's book is a translation of divination-texts, and includes queries about the health of members of the Assyrian Royal household - hence the relevance of the tablet described by Jastrow. For those with nasty suspicious minds , here is Jastrow's text:


The religion of Babylonia and Assyria

Tablet here:


The figures around Lamashtu are protective spirits; they are not threatening the figure in the bed, but guarding him. So this tablet cannot be taken as evidence of the character of the underworld.

Lamashtu by her self here:

British Museum - Amulet with a figure of Lamashtu

Whoever compiled the web-page, & quoted (part of) Jastrow's mistake, was incompletely informed about Assyrian religion; that much is clear. That J. was mistaken is no discredit to him; Assyriology was a very young science in 1898. FWIW, Sumerian beliefs did not include a hell either; only a sort of Sheol. To have a good time in the hereafter, it was desirable to have plenty of sons - which was reasonable enough, since a man would be buried by his family. No family - no burial - no rest in the hereafter. For the details, with plenty of textual support, see:

The Image of the Netherworld in the Sumerian sources
, by Dina Katz.


Not that similarities matter, in one way - because the historical origin of an idea, is no guide to its theological or doctrinal or Christological or Biblical importance. This is a very simple & important distinction, that almost no-one makes. And there seems to be a tacit assumption that Christianity is undermined the moment parallels to something in it are found. Since the Incarnation was "in the fullness of time", & since Jesus is "like us in all things, sin alone excepted", & since in the Bible "historically first" does not mean "best, truest, most valuable, most legitimate", there is no reason why parallels with Christian things make those things false or bad or fake or untrue or unChristian.

And one is assuming that we are talking of genuine similarities; for many are far-fetched or false, & based on misunderstanding. There is no reason why Christians should be bothered if there are relations between what they believe OTOH, and OTO the cultures of Etruria, Egypt or Mesopotamia - such relations are interesting, and can be theologically valuable; but they are not
objections to Christ or the Church, in any way. If God is not limited to Israel, then He is able to work among other peoples: Greeks, Babylonians, Chinese, the lot; for Israel is special, not for itself, but because of the God Who graciously chose it among all the nations of the earth to be His own People

I notice that your info is from this page:

The problem with cut-&-paste posts is that the pages they rely on are often out of date, or inaccurate, or wanting in other ways. Rather a lot has happened in Assyriology since Jastrow wrote.
Although hellfire and torment seem to be deeply rooted in religious beliefs, no where can its literal existence be found as a fact of truth.
## That depends on what is meant by "literal existence".
Interesting, but not relevant here.
## Catholic-bashers argue this way against Purgatory. As to this - maybe people talk about & preach about Hell because they have a healthy view of the sinfulness of sin. For some reason, that possibility seems never to be considered.
Packed churches means full collection plates and full collection plates mean that pastor, preacher or reverend can continue to live in the manner in which he has become accustomed.
## To imply that those who preach about Hell are guilty of deliberate deceit & avarice, without bringing evidence of these very serious faults, is not worthy of a decent human being - far less of Christians
 
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Hairy Tic

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## Actually, no. Oaths had a lot of purposes - for instance, swearing on or by a holy object or person was a way of emphasising the truth of one's testimony: "AS JHWH lives", is an oath - but it need not have anything to do with allegiance. "May JHWH do so to me and more, if I do not do X" is a very strong and emphatic expression of one's purpose.

A bit OTT, but a fascinating subject STM the OP wins on points.
 
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Noxot

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it was neither a tirade or composed of insults, if you wish to see it that way then you will simply have a false conclusion. I think it has substance, but it is hard to follow what I say, it is hard for me to put thoughts into words that other humans can understand. it looks like you do not know what I mean when I talk about the matrix of lies, as it is a huge thing and is composed of many different sub-systems. the prince of darkness is one of the evil beings behind this matrix. Extol (a band) makes a comment on the matrix:

"To comprehend the insanity
Of this grand illusion
Is unbearable"


it is a lot of lies and a lot of different false beliefs. a common saying is that: "there are many lies but only one truth"

saints use different words to explain the same thing. saints use the same words in different ways to explain different things.

however I must say that I have not the strength to go into great detail about what I think is true because sometimes all I hear is human noise (i'm talking about a certain kind of movement of the matrix). if a little mouse can not lift a 5 ton boulder off of a mans leg, does that make the boulder not there? is the mans leg mended because the mouse can not lift the boulder off the leg? all I can do is squeak and watch this terrible thing, but I better go hide soon because I hear that cats live around this place.

it does make sense to me that if most people believe something, then it is probably wrong (since most people are not wise). we (humans) distort pauls words, we distort peters words, we distort the saints words. just because a bunch of people are buying and playing with yo-yos does not mean that I too must go buy a yo-yo or play with one.

if God wants to punish people forever, then I deserve to be one of the first to be cast in the lake of fire. it would seem that wickedness has defeated the gift of Christ (God forbid) and it has taken souls (that God made) away from Him (God forbid) but I submit to you that God will destroy wickedness forever. will not all knees bow? yes it is written in the book. and so hell will not be forever. how can someone in hell bow a knee to Christ? to bow a knee to the King of kings is to follow him in words and truth and love. if some souls are obliterated in hell then how then can they bow?

I believe the eternal fire of God (God is a consuming fire, God is Love) will defeat death. since people in hell are dead, how is it that death is defeated? I believe that God will defeat death in every soul, because He is that great. this is no excuse to not follow Jesus Christ! what kind of fool would shrug off Christ and say "O well, God will save me later." ??? Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are the only way to be saved.

when ~something~ is destroyed by fire, that ~something~ still exist, it just does not exist as it used to.

thanks for the dialogue and interactions ya'll. I hope for cheese.
 
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godisreal36

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Satan is the father of many lies. Hell is real and so is Satan. The HS agrees with the Word. Satan wishes that you disagree with it. But Satan is a liar, do not listen to him. The father of many lies tells many lies to me. The closer i get to serving my Lord, the craftier his lies become. The HS is in everyone who says Jesus is Lord and He alone saves us. But Satan is in us also. Satan disagrees with the Word. Tell him he is a liar. The word is true.
 
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Timothew

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Satan has many lies. He is the father of lies.

One lie he has many believing is that they will not spend eternity in hell if they die without Christ.

No, Godisreal36 is correct.
It's in Genesis 3:4
"You won't die!" the serpent replied to the woman. (NLT)

His lie that he has people believing, is that people will still have eternal life if they die without Christ.
 
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Hairy Tic

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Is that why you identify yourself as a Christian and post on a Christians Only forum? Makes me think of something I read somewhere. "If you were on trial for being a Christian, is there enough evidence to convict you?"
## Would there be enough to convict anyone ? Good question - I have no idea; and I don't think it matters. I think my point was perfectly valid - encouraging the belief that most will be damned, is a dysevangelion; it destroys all motive for hope & obedience. Anything more joyless and wretched it is hard to imagine. As for the rest, I think Christianity is living on borrowed time. People know too much to take God seriously - they have no need for Him these days.This is very largely because of the progress of the sciences. If the world were still largely unexplored, and the forces that shape it were unknown, things might be different. This may be equally disheartening, but it has the advantage of being true. So I see nothing unChristian in saying it.
 
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S

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No, Godisreal36 is correct.
It's in Genesis 3:4


His lie that he has people believing, is that people will still have eternal life if they die without Christ.
You falsely assume that when the serpent said 'Ye shall not die' that he was speaking of never dying.

The fact is, Adam and Eve did indeed die spiritually that day that they partook of that fruit.

And yet, each of them continued to live physically for another 900 years plus.

The devil continues to lie to those who adhere to his teachings. He promises them exactly the opposite of what God promises them.

And just as God promised spiritual death to Adam in the Garden, God's promise of eternal torment in the lake of fire for those who deny Him and adhere to the teachings of satan will indeed also come to pass.

God said they will have no rest day or night and that they will suffer torments forever. Satan lies to them and tells them exactly the opposite of what God promised. And the gullible masses follow satan and his lies.

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
 
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Timothew

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You falsely assume that I've falsely assumed something.

However, Paul had something different to say.
(Romans 5:12-21 NIV, with NIV section heading)

Paul is saying that death came to the world because of one man's sin, then all sinned, so death comes to everyone. However because of the sacrifice of another man, the Lord Jesus Christ, grace comes to all. And through Him, Eternal Life to all who receive Him.

God told Adam that if he ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he would surely die.
The serpent told Eve that if she ate the fruit she would not die.
Adam and Eve ate the fruit and they died.

Who was lying? God or the serpent?

The result of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ. Whoever believes in Jesus Christ will not perish, instead they will have eternal life. Whoever does not believe in Jesus Christ for eternal life will perish and they will not have eternal life.
 
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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
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If you want people to read your posts, why don't you use font size 3 instead of 5. They are too hard to read! If you want the text to appear larger on your own screen click "View" at the upper left then "Zoom." or "Ctrl", "Shift" "+"

Notice how many times you say "I think"? What you think without evidence is NOT relevant. You sound like every other false religion which popped up in the last 150 years or so, JW, LDS, SDA, UPCI, UU, OP, proto-WWCG, anti--trin MJ, kristadelfian, etc. Nothing but inflammatory rhetoric, empty accusations, self aggrandizement, etc. with NO, ZERO, NONE supporting evidence!
 
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Until you grasp the reality that death is not cessation of existence but separation, you will never understand the eternal torments of the lake of fire.
 
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Timothew

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Until you grasp the reality that death is not cessation of existence but separation, you will never understand the eternal torments of the lake of fire.

Until you understand that the bible means death when the bible says death, you will never understand eternal life.

Right back at ya, pal!
 
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