Let's Talk About Hell

[max1120]

That's the point. Tell me, what kind of body are those in the second resurrection given?


Because the lake of fire is where Satan, the false prophet, and the beast will be casted to be tormented for ever and ever. This is also the same lake of fire where those whose names are not found in the book of life will also be casted. So you must be saying that either God has ordained a different punishment for Satan and his minions or there are two lakes of fire.

It is possible that Satan (Lucifer) might have an different punishment as he acted not out of ignorance or lack of knowledge (since he had first hand knowledge of god). From the evidence I have seen there is good reason to doubt that god plans to burn in agony anyone who simply disbelieves he exist. This belief is rooted in poor renderings and translations of various biblical text. It is also due to poor interpretations of those text. Also not all text of the same gospel or book are exactly the same some have differences which can change the meaning of some passages in significant ways.

There is no justification for eternal torture for a finite transgression. God is a god of justice and he would not pronounce such a penalty. It would be contrary to his nature and the nature of his relationship to us.

 

[Hentenza]

It is possible that Satan (Lucifer) might have an different punishment as he acted not out of ignorance or lack of knowledge (since he had first hand knowledge of god). From the evidence I have seen there is good reason to doubt that god plans to burn in agony anyone who simply disbelieves he exist. This belief is rooted in poor renderings and translations of various biblical text. It is also due to poor interpretations of those text. Also not all text of the same gospel or book are exactly the same some have differences which can change the meaning of some passages in significant ways.

There is no justification for eternal torture for a finite transgression. God is a god of justice and he would not pronounce such a penalty. It would be contrary to his nature and the nature of his relationship to us.

Again, not a single piece of biblical evidence. Max, if you have evidence of your opinion then please post it.

 

[Timothew]

It is possible that Satan (Lucifer) might have an different punishment as he acted not out of ignorance or lack of knowledge (since he had first hand knowledge of god). From the evidence I have seen there is good reason to doubt that god plans to burn in agony anyone who simply disbelieves he exist. This belief is rooted in poor renderings and translations of various biblical text. It is also due to poor interpretations of those text. Also not all text of the same gospel or book are exactly the same some have differences which can change the meaning of some passages in significant ways.

There is no justification for eternal torture for a finite transgression. God is a god of justice and he would not pronounce such a penalty. It would be contrary to his nature and the nature of his relationship to us.

I tend to agree with you, BUT...
How do you interpret those verses that suggest eternal punishment?
Revelation 14:11 for example.

 

[Der Alte]

[ . . . ]Nope. Satan and all his people will be burned up root and branch. Notice how the fire is called down from heaven upon them. consider that the lake of fire is just a manner of speech. The entire earth will burn, thus in a way to someone seeing that, they would see one great lake of fire.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

 

[Unashamed Jesus Freak]

The punishment of the dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10).

 

[Unashamed Jesus Freak]

Jesus Himself said, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire" (Matthew 18:8), and "And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire" (Mark 9:43), and "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matthew 25:46), and here again, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28). Here again are more words of Jesus concerning the reality of hell. He said to the Pharisees, "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?" (Matthew 23:33) (emphasis added).

 

[Unashamed Jesus Freak]

Revelation 14:10-11 says, "he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

 

[FredVB]

God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. (1 John 5:11-12)

So there is eternal life in God's Son, and there is no eternal life outside God's Son.
I don't think that people can have eternal life in hell,
if they have eternal life, they are in the Son of God, not in Hell.
If they are not in the Son of God, they don't have eternal life, therefore, after they die, they are dead.

There is already a good amount to answer to this, but just to clarify, death in the Bible does not mean end to all consciousness, just as many believe when they are dead they will be ghosts, thought that says they understand that they are in that case dead. Those brought back for the lake of fire will not be said to have life, as that is defined as you say with the abundance to be had in eternity with the Lord. Eternity suffering apart from blessed fellowship with the Lord is called death, and there is no joy of life to be thought to be in connection with it.

 

[Timothew]

There is already a good amount to answer to this, but just to clarify, death in the Bible does not mean end to all consciousness, just as many believe when they are dead they will be ghosts, thought that says they understand that they are in that case dead. Those brought back for the lake of fire will not be said to have life, as that is defined as you say with the abundance to be had in eternity with the Lord. Eternity suffering apart from blessed fellowship with the Lord is called death, and there is no joy of life to be thought to be in connection with it.

Oh, That's what John meant!
Why didn't he just say so!

How about Paul? The wages of sin is eternal burning in the lake of fire, or something like that.

 

[Der Alte]

Evidently I disagree with your understanding of the texts. Either Christ is contradicting Himself, or He's not saying what you think He is. It's that simple.

And you shouldn't start with Matthew. You can find texts about the fate of the wicked all the way back in the OT. Here's a favorite:

Mal 4:1 - For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

And another: Eze 28:18,19
You defiled your sanctuaries
By the multitude of your iniquities,
By the iniquity of your trading;
Therefore I brought fire from your midst;
It devoured you,
And I turned you to ashes upon the earth
In the sight of all who saw you.
19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;
You have become a horror,
And shall be no more forever

I started with Matthew because I was showing what Jesus said about eternal punishment. This is known as proof text theology. Here is how it works, I post scripture, or in this case 28 passages of scripture, and you post one verse, which OBTW was out-of-context, and say "My scripture beats your scripture." When what you should have done was make sure you were reading the verse in context, then show how the 28 verses I quoted are not correctly translated.

Here is Mal 4:1, in-context.

Mal 4:1-3
(1) For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
(2) But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
(3) And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.​

This is what happens on one day, in this world, vss. 1 & 3. The righteous of Israel will not be walking on the ashes of the unrighteous throughout eternity, vs. 3!

Now your other out-of-context verse!

Eze 28:17-19
(17) Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
(18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
(19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.​

Where does this happen? The unrighteous are thrown to the ground before kings, vs. 17, "upon the earth," vs. 18. They are no more on this earth. See Heb 9:27.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:​

The unrighteous in Ezek 28:17-19 who were destroyed on this earth must still face judgment.

 

[FredVB]

Oh, That's what John meant!
Why didn't he just say so!

How about Paul? The wages of sin is eternal burning in the lake of fire, or something like that.

Yes, Paul could have said it like that, it would be more indisputable now. Earlier in history, death was not assumed to be end of consciousness, and it would not make sense that the eternal Creator designed those in his image to have an absolute end never to have consciousness again. If any of them remain in rebellion, which many in fact do, their existence afterward must be with the consequence of that and their sin, without the fellowship with God we are designed for that those who repent and have salvation in Christ receive for eternity, which is called life. Death was always understood to not have that, even though there would still be consciousness.

 

[Der Alte]

"There is ample scriptural evidence," do you care to share?

In addition to the verses spoken by Jesus here are verses which show some kind of conscious awareness in Sheol.

In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and in Sheol, there is a lot of moving, stirring, raising up, speaking,

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.​

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in שאול/sheol. These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events.

Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in Sheol, speaking.

Ezek 32:18-22 (KJV)
18) Son of man, wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword:​

​

 

[Unashamed Jesus Freak]

Am I invisible? I'm just asking...

 

[martymonster]

Oh man, does heresy ever take a day off?

I don't know how much clearer the bible could make it that when you die you cease to exist!

There is no consciousness in the grave after you die!

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.


1Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Co 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
1Co 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.


Dead means dead!

When your asleep you are not up walking around are you?

Plus, what's the point of having a first or second resurrection if We all have an immortal soul?
That just makes the first and second resurrections less than useless!

Even Christ had to be raised to life by God because He was dead.

Dead as a door nail.

Christ was not down in Hell preaching to people in Hell, and He certainly wasn't in Heaven with the thief on the cross.

He was dead!

He died for your sins!

Think about the rediculousness of it all.

The dead who are already immortal spirits are sucked back into their bodies to be physically resurrected in their physical bodies so that they can be changed into immortal spirits again in the twinkling of an eye.

No wonder God calls the wisdom of the world stupidity, because it is!


DEAD!

 

[Unashamed Jesus Freak]

Hm... I tend to disagree with your biblical interpretation of what happens after this life is over. See here for details: http://www.christianforums.com/t7475.../#post55040216.

 

[Hentenza]

Oh man, does heresy ever take a day off?

I don't know how much clearer the bible could make it that when you die you cease to exist!

Ahem........Annihilationism was condemned as heretical by the second council of Constantinople in 553 and the second Lutheran council in 1513.

 

[Der Alte]

Oh man, does heresy ever take a day off?

I don't know how much clearer the bible could make it that when you die you cease to exist!

There is no consciousness in the grave after you die!

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

1Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Co 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
1Co 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

Dead means dead!

When your asleep you are not up walking around are you?

Plus, what's the point of having a first or second resurrection if We all have an immortal soul?
That just makes the first and second resurrections less than useless!

Even Christ had to be raised to life by God because He was dead.

Dead as a door nail.

Christ was not down in Hell preaching to people in Hell, and He certainly wasn't in Heaven with the thief on the cross.

He was dead!

He died for your sins!

Think about the rediculousness of it all.

The dead who are already immortal spirits are sucked back into their bodies to be physically resurrected in their physical bodies so that they can be changed into immortal spirits again in the twinkling of an eye.

No wonder God calls the wisdom of the world stupidity, because it is!

DEAD!

I will not go so far as to call it stupidity but this post certainly is unscriptural and heretical. What you have done is ignore every scripture posted by several people, posted two out-of-context proof texts and say "My scripture beats your scripture."

Your first proof text says nothing about the eternal condition of the dead. It is part of proverbs written from the point of view of a mortal man, what he can perceive with his five senses. While it is the word of God the passage does NOT say "Thus saith the Lord. . ."

Eccl 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.​

However, if we look at the context, Solomon is speaking of what happens in the physical lifetime. See verse 3 and 5, both clearly state “things that are done under the sun.”
And our little out-of-context phrase is sandwiched between those two statements

This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, . . . after that they go to the dead.. . . but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.​

The dead know not anything that is done under the sun and they do not have any portion in anything done under the sun If vs. 5 refers to the eternal condition of the dead then even the righteous do not receive any reward, "neither have they any more a reward; vs. 5.

One final verse which shows the writer of Proverbs is not speaking of the dead ceasing to exist.

Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man whether it goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast whether it goeth downward to the earth?​

The writer of Proverbs did not know what happened to the soul of a man when he died.

Your other out-of-context proof text.

1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.​

This passage does NOT say that the dead perish, cease to exist as you claim. Note the word "IF" The dead perish ONLY if Christ is not raised.

 

[Timothew]

Revelation 14:10-11 says, "he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

Am I invisible? I'm just asking...

Der Alter mentioned this verse, too. 1 of 2 good verses amongst his 28 verses that really (I'm sorry!) didn't have anything to do with anything. I'm wondering how this verse can mesh with 1 John 5:11-12.

Could it be the beast that drinks the wine, and it's the smoke from his fire that goes up forever?

Could smoke of their torment be figurative language for death?

 

[martymonster]

Ahem........Annihilationism was condemned as heretical by the second council of Constantinople in 553 and the second Lutheran council in 1513.

Huh?

I didn't mention anything about anilhilationism.

Sorry my bad, I thought I was being clear but clearly I wasn't.

You have a brain where your consciousness resides and when you die your brain dies too until you are resurrected by God where you live again, otherwise the first and second resurrections are a pointless exercise.

BTW, God is not into pointless exercises!

 

[Hentenza]

Huh?

I didn't mention anything about anilhilationism.

Sorry my bad, I thought I was being clear but clearly I wasn't.

You have a brain where your consciousness resides and when you die your brain dies too until you are resurrected by God where you live again, otherwise the first and second resurrections are a pointless exercise.

BTW, God is not into pointless exercises!

Ah, so are you advocating soul sleep?