Let's Talk About Hell

[The Penitent Man]

You know, I've been thinking about this all week. This concept of hell is something that I've had trouble with all of my life. How could god torture someone, but the bible says that god is love?

Well, I think I might understand it now. Hell was created for satan and his demons, not for people. God does not send you to hell, but if you don't believe in god, and you do not love god, then you go there by default because you can't hate god and be in His presence in heaven. It's just not possible.

So, people choose hell for themselves by refusing God because there are only 2 choices, heaven and everything outside of heaven, which is hell.

Now what I really want to know is after you die, is there a second chance? Once you see hell, can you repent and get out of hell?

I know alot of athiests, and I talk to them about this stuff all of the time because I"m very concerned for them, and that question did come up once or twice and I really don't know the answer.

"I willingly believe that the damned are, in one sense, successful, rebels to the end; that the doors of hell are locked on the inside."
-C.S. Lewis

 

[LJSGM]

Who appointed you the ultimate authority on what God does/does not do?

We who have the Holy Spirit should learn by the Holy Spirit, not by excepting every wind of doctrine that men hand down to us as it has been for hundreds of years. God is not evil, even you should know that. The most evil man on the planet would not do that to his worst enemy, how much less so would a righteous man, and then how about God compared to a righteous man, who is Holy? Would God torture Grandma forever?

Right! The church has been wrong for 2000 years +/- but you have the true truth. See my two post above your. Jesus speaking on the eternal punishment of the unrighteous.

Look, you don't appear to be catholic, but a catholic could say the same to you since they have been in power for the majority of the time. Obviously since I'm a protestant, I do believe the church has been wrong for a while now and still is on many subjects.

Two out-of-context proof texts which do not say what you think. See my two posts at the link above.

Why don't you explain it to me why I have it wrong, those two verses... it should be easy. Your post reminds me more of "ever hearing, never understanding" type of thing.

 

[SkyWriting]

You know, I've been thinking about this all week. This concept of hell is something that I've had trouble with all of my life. How could god torture someone, but the bible says that god is love?

Well, I think I might understand it now. Hell was created for satan and his demons, not for people. God does not send you to hell, but if you don't believe in god, and you do not love god, then you go there by default because you can't hate god and be in His presence in heaven. It's just not possible.

So, people choose hell for themselves by refusing God because there are only 2 choices, heaven and everything outside of heaven, which is hell.

Now what I really want to know is after you die, is there a second chance? Once you see hell, can you repent and get out of hell?

I know alot of athiests, and I talk to them about this stuff all of the time because I"m very concerned for them, and that question did come up once or twice and I really don't know the answer.

If Hell is truly a decision to accept God or not, and Hell is the result of that decision, then conditions are not going to change after death.

That being the case, people will remain in Hell by choice. And the scriptures do suggest that is the case with the story of the man in Hell. He knew he was where he belonged and had no regrets about his decision. In fact, his concern was for others. Luke 16:19-31

 

[b.hopeful]

If hell is real...then we need to stop referring to salvation as a gift....and start calling it a bribe.

 

[chingchang]

If hell is real...then we need to stop referring to salvation as a gift....and start calling it a bribe.

Did you come up with that...or is that a quote from someone else? Just curious.

CC

 

[b.hopeful]

Mine. It was the first thought that came to my mind after reading this thread.

 

[Der Alte]

We who have the Holy Spirit should learn by the Holy Spirit, not by excepting every wind of doctrine that men hand down to us as it has been for hundreds of years. God is not evil, even you should know that. The most evil man on the planet would not do that to his worst enemy, how much less so would a righteous man, and then how about God compared to a righteous man, who is Holy? Would God torture Grandma forever?

Unfortunately every false religious group which ever came along, e.g. JW, LDS, UU, OP, anti-trin MJ, WWCG, kristadelfian, Jim Jones, David Koresh, etc. say the same thing, "We who have the Holy Spirit should learn by the Holy Spirit, not by accepting every wind of doctrine that men hand down to us as it has been for hundreds of years." They all claim, or claimed, that they were right because they, alone, are guided by the Holy Spirit.

Who appointed you as the authority on what "The most evil man on the planet" would or would not do? A meaningless generality which you cannot back up. It is abundantly clear from the 28 passages I linked to that God, in fact, does punish the unrighteous in eternal fire. Some argue that the punishment does not endure eternally but only for some indeterminate "age." A view which is not supported grammatically, lexically, or historically.

Look, you don't appear to be catholic, but a catholic could say the same to you since they have been in power for the majority of the time. Obviously since I'm a protestant, I do believe the church has been wrong for a while now and still is on many subjects.

I'm not Catholic, I'm talking about the church that Jesus built, against which the gates of hell cannot prevail and which should be clearly visible in every age. Unfortunately, there is NO, ZERO, NONE credible, verifiable historical evidence for your beliefs between 90 AD, when the NT was completed, and the late `19th century when all the false religious groups I listed were started.

What you "believe,""think,""suppose,""surmise," etc. is irrelevant unless you can show from credible evidence how the church has been wrong.

Why don't you explain it to me why I have it wrong, those two verses... it should be easy. Your post reminds me more of "ever hearing, never understanding" type of thing.

OTOH you have a "proof text" theology. If you can, find 2-3 verses, which seem to support your assumptions/presuppositions and ignore anything, everything which contradicts your views. See e.g. my post citing 28 passages of scripture spoken by Jesus on this topic.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7463551-42/#post55015005

 

[Der Alte]

If hell is real...then we need to stop referring to salvation as a gift....and start calling it a bribe.

Mine. It was the first thought that came to my mind after reading this thread.

IOW you have no scriptural, grammatical, lexical, or historical evidence for your statement. Just a wild thought that popped into your mind.

 

[Lisa*Lisa]

If hell is real...then we need to stop referring to salvation as a gift....and start calling it a bribe.

I wouldn't call it a bribe, I call it a consequence of someone's choice.

If you play on the freeway, you're going to get hit. That's a consequence of a choice you made. I see hell as the same. It's not a bribe, it's a consequence.

 

[b.hopeful]

IOW you have no scriptural, grammatical, lexical, or historical evidence for your statement. Just a wild thought that popped into your mind.

Define bribe and then tell me how the notion of "accept this gift or burn for eternity" does not meet the definition.

 

[LJSGM]

Unfortunately every false religious group which ever came along, e.g. JW, LDS, UU, OP, anti-trin MJ, WWCG, kristadelfian, Jim Jones, David Koresh, etc. say the same thing, "We who have the Holy Spirit should learn by the Holy Spirit, not by accepting every wind of doctrine that men hand down to us as it has been for hundreds of years." They all claim, or claimed, that they were right because they, alone, are guided by the Holy Spirit.

True, we all could wrong, including you. Now where does that put us? We each need to discern the truth, not just accept everything that comes to us, and everything we are told to believe.

Who appointed you as the authority on what "The most evil man on the planet" would or would not do? A meaningless generality which you cannot back up. It is abundantly clear from the 28 passages I linked to that God, in fact, does punish the unrighteous in eternal fire. Some argue that the punishment does not endure eternally but only for some indeterminate "age." A view which is not supported grammatically, lexically, or historically.

Gehenna was a continuously burning fire as well, that does not mean that whatever was thrown into it was still alive and in torment. The bible also describes God as a consuming fire on several occasions. God is also called "eternal." You have so little proof that your dante's inferno is the actual gehenna that Jesus speaks about. In fact Greek orthodox nor Catholics believe in your version, and they go way back, so your theory that whoever believes something the longest wins actually falls short. Half the Jews before Jesus came didn't even believe in an afterlife at all!

I'm not Catholic, I'm talking about the church that Jesus built, against which the gates of hell cannot prevail and which should be clearly visible in every age. Unfortunately, there is NO, ZERO, NONE credible, verifiable historical evidence for your beliefs between 90 AD, when the NT was completed, and the late `19th century when all the false religious groups I listed were started.

What exactly is it that you think that I believe?

What you "believe,""think,""suppose,""surmise," etc. is irrelevant unless you can show from credible evidence how the church has been wrong.

The scriptures themselves prove that dante's inferno is incorrect.

OTOH you have a "proof text" theology. If you can, find 2-3 verses, which seem to support your assumptions/presuppositions and ignore anything, everything which contradicts your views. See e.g. my post citing 28 passages of scripture spoken by Jesus on this topic.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7463551-42/#post55015005http://www.christianforums.com/t7463551-42/#post55015005http://www.christianforums.com/t7463551-42/#post55015005

I don't ignore even one verse. My beliefs do not contradict with even one of them. You have not proven to me how I have interpreted those two verses wrong, we could start there and then go on if you want to have a proper discussion.

 

[Der Alte]

a fire that does not consume defeats the whole purpose of using fire to convey a meaning. Fire (as a punishment) has always, in every situation in the scriptures, been used to describe being completely burned up and destroyed...

See these two posts, 28 passages Jesus speaking on the eternal punishment by fire of the unrighteous.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7463551-42/#post55015005

Which, OBTW I posted before which you replied to but did not address any of the scripture.

2 Peter 2
6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

No problem here. This says nothing about what happens when the people of S&G appear before Jesus at the white throne judgment.

Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

This does not say that S&G suffered "punishment of eternal fire" only that the people serve as an example. What is the example for those who do suffer the "punishment of eternal fire?" God temporally destroys the unrighteous, then they face judgment.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:​

 

[b.hopeful]

I wouldn't call it a bribe, I call it a consequence of someone's choice.

If you play on the freeway, you're going to get hit. That's a consequence of a choice you made. I see hell as the same. It's not a bribe, it's a consequence.

Not an accurate comparison. Not everyone gets hit...you could be playing on the shoulder and get hit by someone that is not paying attention or that is drunk. I would compare it to a child not putting their bike away after the parent stressed the importance. A consequence is that the child no longer has a bike if it's stolen. A punishment is if the parents take the bike and give it to a neighbor kid in response to the child not doing what he was told. So in this case, hell is not consequence but punishment...punishment for not accepting a gift? Doesn't compute for me.

Also..the term being used to describe salvation here is "gift". I've given a lot of gifts...and from them, I expect NOTHING in return. That is the nature of a gift...it is something you give away with no expectations of return.

Hell is being portrayed as a punishment for making a wrong choice. There is no grace necessary in that scenario. Grace is only for those that repent? So He came only for the righteous..not the sick?

I'm not claiming, like many here, that I have the truth on hell, heaven, salvation or grace. I'm saying that salvation is not a gift if we are required to respond and if the consequence of not giving a correct response is damnation...it seems like a bribe.

 

[LJSGM]

See these two posts, 28 passages Jesus speaking on the eternal punishment by fire of the unrighteous.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7463551-42/#post55015005

Which, OBTW I posted before which you replied to but did not address any of the scripture.

First we should establish what it is you think that I believe. I'm not going to go through every verse you listed all at once before we even know what it is we're debating.

No problem here. This says nothing about what happens when the people of S&G appear before Jesus at the white throne judgment.

IT says everything. They will be destroyed by "fire." That is what will happen to the wicked after the white throne judgment.

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Now explain to me how Sodom and Gomorrah are an example torture?

This does not say that S&G suffered "punishment of eternal fire" only that the people serve as an example. What is the example for those who do suffer the "punishment of eternal fire?" God temporally destroys the unrighteous, then they face judgment.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
​

and then after judgement they are destroyed once again, called the second death which will be an everlasting punishment, their worm will not die because they will never be raise from the dead ever again.

 

[Der Alte]

First we should establish what it is you think that I believe. I'm not going to go through every verse you listed all at once before we even know what it is we're debating.

You appear to be arguing that there is no punishment whatsoever, that the unrighteous are judged and immediately destroyed, ceasing to exist. The passages I posted show that there is a place of punishment for the unrighteous and that punishment is eternal, never ending.

IT says everything. They will be destroyed by "fire." That is what will happen to the wicked after the white throne judgment.

Neither of your proof texts says that S&G will be destroyed by "fire!"

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Now explain to me how Sodom and Gomorrah are an example torture?

Neither your two out-of-context proof texts, nor I said that S&G were an example of torture.

and then after judgement they are destroyed once again, called the second death which will be an everlasting punishment, their worm will not die because they will never be raise from the dead ever again.

You have one out-of-context proof text and you ignore or misrepresent all other verse which prove your assumptions/presuppositions wrong.

Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] fire.
18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.​

See comments on Mark 9:43-48, below.

Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[…]
46 And these shall go away into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] punishment: but the righteous into life eternal

Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.​

If the unrighteous, in “hades,” are eventually destroyed, the worm would no longer be theirs or any concern to them. Why would Jesus warn his followers about worms, that do not die, three times, if it did not concern them? Was Jesus concerned about the biology of worms, or the eternal souls of his followers?

If those in hell are eventually destroyed, the unquenched fire did not concern them. Why did Jesus warn his followers about unquenched fire, three times, if it did not concern them?

Rev 14:9-11
(9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
(10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

The smoke of the torment of the unrighteous rises for ever and ever. Their torment, in fire, endures forever, the smoke rises forever! If they are eventually destroyed the smoke is no longer theirs. The eternal, unending nature of the torment is further emphasized by the words, "and they have no rest day nor night." Ten thousand times ten thousand years from now God's unchanging word will still say "and they have no rest day nor night." They are not destroyed and cease to exist.

 

[LJSGM]

You appear to be arguing that there is no punishment whatsoever, that the unrighteous are judged and immediately destroyed, ceasing to exist. The passages I posted show that there is a place of punishment for the unrighteous and that punishment is eternal, never ending.

Death is the GREATEST punishment that our government hands out, why would you stay that death is not a punishment?

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death

Neither of your proof texts says that S&G will be destroyed by "fire!"

You said the people of S&G after the judgement, and if they are judged by what they have done and find themselves to be cast amoungst the wicked, they too will be cast into the fire to be destroyed... S&G was an example of the eternal punishment.

Neither your two out-of-context proof texts, nor I said that S&G were an example of torture.

How are they out of context? It says specifically that S&G is an example of what will happen to the wicked... obviously, it does not mention torture for some reason.

You have one out-of-context proof text and you ignore or misrepresent all other verse which prove your assumptions/presuppositions wrong.

Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] fire.
​

18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
​

Strangely these verse do not mention torture, nor do they mention not being destroyed by the fire they are thrown into....

Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

shall not be quenched means to not be put out... which says to me that they will not be saved from being destroyed.... still does not mention them being indestructable and in torment. What a strange concept! where did that come from anyways?

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
​

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
​

If the unrighteous, in “hades,” are eventually destroyed, the worm would no longer be theirs or any concern to them. Why would Jesus warn his followers about worms, that do not die, three times, if it did not concern them? Was Jesus concerned about the biology of worms, or the eternal souls of his followers?

You seem to be implying that Jesus words were only for his followers and not for everyone, even those far off. What a strange concept! This worm was specially a grave worm signifying DEAth and the GRAVE. Why would Jesus mention anything to do with the grave if that's not what hell is, rather it's life in torment?</B>
​

If those in hell are eventually destroyed, the unquenched fire did not concern them. Why did Jesus warn his followers about unquenched fire, three times, if it did not concern them?

Hades was the abode of the dead, where Jesus went, let us not forget, there will be a ressurection of both the righteous and the wicked in both death and Hades will be destroyed.

<B>

Rev 14:9-11

(9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
​

(10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
​

The smoke of the torment of the unrighteous rises for ever and ever. Their torment, in fire, endures forever, the smoke rises forever! If they are eventually destroyed the smoke is no longer theirs.

</B>
You are speaking of a metaphor that will be tormented for ever and ever, you realize that?

It's a bit hypocritical and you should take the log out of your own eye first...

"If you can, find 2-3 verses, which seem to support your assumptions/presuppositions and ignore anything, everything which contradicts your views." Seems to be what you're doing...

The eternal, unending nature of the torment is further emphasized by the words, "and they have no rest day nor night." Ten thousand times ten thousand years from now God's unchanging word will still say "and they have no rest day nor night." They are not destroyed and cease to exist.

Didn't know that there was a day and night in your version of hell??? how strange, since I thought that was a phenomenon cause by the sun raising on the earth?

 

[Der Alte]

Death is the GREATEST punishment that our government hands out, why would you stay that death is not a punishment?

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death

God is NOT constrained by what human governments do/do not do. Jesus said "eternal punishment" he did NOT say eternal death. According to you people die, they are resurrected then some die again and the second death is punishment? What is the first death?

You said the people of S&G after the judgement, and if they are judged by what they have done and find themselves to be cast amoungst the wicked, they too will be cast into the fire to be destroyed... S&G was an example of the eternal punishment.

I did not say S&G "will be cast into the fire to be destroyed... S&G was an example of the eternal punishment."

How are they out of context? It says specifically that S&G is an example of what will happen to the wicked... obviously, it does not mention torture for some reason.

Nobody said anything about torture but you! The word used in scripture is "punishment." S&G are an example of what happens to the wicked in this lifetime, God destroys them, and they still must face judgment.

Strangely these verse do not mention torture, nor do they mention not being destroyed by the fire they are thrown into....

Strangely these verses use the word "everlasting [&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957;/aiónion] fire." If the unrighteous are immediately destroyed, the words "everlasting fire" have no meaning.

shall not be quenched means to not be put out... which says to me that they will not be saved from being destroyed.... still does not mention them being indestructable and in torment. What a strange concept! where did that come from anyways?

Twisting scripture to support your false assumptions//presuppositions. If Jesus had intended to say "will not be saved from being destroyed" that or something very similar is what he would have said! Since Jesus wanted his audience to understand exactly the seriousness of what the was saying he said what he meant and meant what he said. Jesus never used figurative language, which people might have misunderstood, to warn them about the danger of God's punishment.

You seem to be implying that Jesus words were only for his followers and not for everyone, even those far off. What a strange concept!

I never said or implied any such thing, but his immediate audience would have understood that Jesus was warning them about eternal punishment in eternal fire.

This worm was specially a grave worm signifying DEAth and the GRAVE. Why would Jesus mention anything to do with the grave if that's not what hell is, rather it's life in torment?

Where does the Bible state or give a hint that the worm that Jesus was talking about was "specially a grave worm signifying death and the grave?" A: Nowhere! This is you twisting scripture again trying to make it support your false assumptions/presuppositions. When Jesus talked about the worms that do not die and the fire that is not quenched he was not talking about the grave. This is based on your first false assumption.

Hades was the abode of the dead, where Jesus went, let us not forget, there will be a ressurection of both the righteous and the wicked in both death and Hades will be destroyed.

The resurrection is irrelevant to this particular discussion. According to Luke 16;19-48 people are tormented in flames in Hades. I have discussed this at length in my post which you will not read.

There is no verse which says death and Hades will be destroyed. Death is the punctiliar cessation of life, it has no physical substance and cannot be thrown anywhere. The vs. you are thinking about refers to the angel of death and the demon of hell!

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

These two beings are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.

You are speaking of a metaphor that will be tormented for ever and ever, you realize that?

Please explain the metaphor? How much of Revelation is supposedly metaphor, or other figurative language, and where is it explained in scripture? Every Tom, Dick, and heretic has a different idea of what the supposed figurative language in Rev. means. And they all claim that they alone are right. There is a well known maxim about Bible interpretation, "If the plain sense, makes good sense, then it is nonsense, to look for any other sense."

It's a bit hypocritical and you should take the log out of your own eye first...

"If you can, find 2-3 verses, which seem to support your assumptions/presuppositions and ignore anything, everything which contradicts your views." Seems to be what you're doing...

Hardly amigo. You are not paying attention. You failed to note that I quoted every passage, 28 total, where Jesus talks about the fate of the unrighteous. So how can I be finding 2-3 vss.?

Didn't know that there was a day and night in your version of hell??? how strange, since I thought that was a phenomenon cause by the sun raising on the earth?

John was writing to living human beings who would have understood that "forever and ever" and "no rest day or night" meant eternal, unending punishment. Just as they understood the elders before the throne serve God eternally, Rev 7:15, and the devil, the beast, and the false prophet, are tormented forever, NOT destroyed in the lake of fire.

Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

 

[SkyWriting]

If hell is real...then we need to stop referring to salvation as a gift....and start calling it a bribe.

A bribe is offered to people in power or with above normal influence.
Like forum moderators for instance.

 

[SkyWriting]

Define bribe and then tell me how the notion of "accept this gift or burn for eternity" does not meet the definition.

The burning is in your mind. But then if a "mind" is all you have, self torment is mighty hot.

A gift cannot be bought or paid for by the recipient.
If they don't accept the gift, they live without the gift for eternity.
That would be Hell.
(and a bribe is for people in high places only....not sinners.)

 

[SkyWriting]

Death is the GREATEST punishment that our government hands out, why would you stay that death is not a punishment?

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death

Wages = "exchange for"

It's not a punishment. It's a result.

The wages of "Crack use" is a few good minutes or maybe death.
It's a result.