Let's Talk About Hell

[Duckybill]

The punishment IS destruction (according to the Bible) which IS everlasting...meaning no resurrection from the 2nd death. It really isn't that hard to understand.

CC

God bless the wicked with eternal peace? Nah.

 

[Duckybill]

Yahweh does not torture!!!!

CC

He would drown everyone on Earth but 8, but He wouldn't torture?

 

[chingchang]

He would drown everyone on Earth but 8, but He wouldn't torture?

That is what the Bible reveals about his character...yes.

CC

 

[chingchang]

God bless the wicked with eternal peace? Nah.

I'm simply stating what the Bible plainly teaches. Where you get this idea that God tortures is anyone's guess...because it isn't Biblical. It is an man-made evil doctrine.

CC

 

[Duckybill]

I'm simply stating what the Bible plainly teaches. Where you get this idea that God tortures is anyone's guess...because it isn't Biblical. It is an man-made evil doctrine.

CC

How many children, elderly and invalids do you believe God drowned in the Genesis Flood?

 

[chingchang]

How many children, elderly and invalids do you believe God drowned in the Genesis Flood?

Infants too! The point is their punishment had an end. It ended with their destruction. God didn't torture them.

CC

 

[Duckybill]

Infants too! The point is their punishment had an end. It ended with their destruction. God didn't torture them.

CC

Drowning is not torture?

 

[chingchang]

Drowning is not torture?

No...not when death results. Water-boarding is torture. You're getting OT.

CC

 

[Duckybill]

No...not when death results. Water-boarding is torture. You're getting OT.

CC

I'm talking about Hell. What are you talking about? And yes Hell Fire is eternal.

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

 

[chingchang]

I'm talking about Hell. What are you talking about? And yes Hell Fire is eternal.

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Jude 1:7(NIV)
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

If what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah serves as an example of what will happen to those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire...then we can know what that punishment is like by finding out what happend to Sodom and Gomorrah. Well...what happened there? Destruction. Nothing left.

Matthew 10:28 (NIV)
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Nah...you're right DuckyBill...God can destory both soul and body in hell but instead chooses to torture endlessly.

Matthew 3:12(NIV)
His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Note that the chaff (wicked) are burned-up. What happens to chaff when it is burned? Eventually there is nothing left. That is one of the purposes of burning the chaff...to get rid of it. God will do the same with the wicked one day.

CC

 

[Duckybill]

Jude 1:7(NIV)
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

If what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah serves as an example of what will happen to those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire...then we can know what that punishment is like by finding out what happend to Sodom and Gomorrah. Well...what happened there? Destruction. Nothing left.

Only their bodies were destroyed. They themselves are burning in eternal fire.

Matthew 10:28 (NIV)
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Nah...you're right DuckyBill...God can destory both soul and body in hell but instead chooses to torture endlessly.

Now you got it.

Matthew 3:12(NIV)
His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Note that the chaff (wicked) are burned-up. What happens to chaff when it is burned? Eventually there is nothing left. That is one of the purposes of burning the chaff...to get rid of it. God will do the same with the wicked one day.

CC

Again you're talking about bodies being burned up. That's not the end of the story. There is a reason the fire is EVERLASTING.

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

 

[chingchang]

Only their bodies were destroyed. They themselves are burning in eternal fire.
Now you got it.
Again you're talking about bodies being burned up. That's not the end of the story. There is a reason the fire is EVERLASTING.

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

In Matthew 10:28 Yeshua tells us that we should fear the one who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell. Just because the fire is everlasting doesn't mean he will keep souls alive there forever. They will be burned-up just like the chaff.

CC

 

[Der Alte]

Jude 1:7(NIV)
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

If what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah serves as an example of what will happen to those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire...then we can know what that punishment is like by finding out what happend to Sodom and Gomorrah. Well...what happened there? Destruction. Nothing left.

Matthew 10:28 (NIV)
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Nah...you're right DuckyBill...God can destory both soul and body in hell but instead chooses to torture endlessly.

Matthew 3:12(NIV)
His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Note that the chaff (wicked) are burned-up. What happens to chaff when it is burned? Eventually there is nothing left. That is one of the purposes of burning the chaff...to get rid of it. God will do the same with the wicked one day.

Now lets look at all the verses spoken by Jesus about the fate of the unrighteous. Twenty eight (28) passages, in order as they occur in the Bible, Jesus speaking on eternal punishment of the wicked.

Matt 3:12; 5:13, 20, 29,-30; 7:13-14; 21-23; 8:12; 10:33, 39-42; 13:49-50; 18:3-4, 8-9, 21:43; 22:2-14; 23:13, 15; 25:11-12, 41, 46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Lk 9:62; 12:45-46; 13:23-24; Luke 16:22-28; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, 18; 15:6.

[1] Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

[2] Matthew 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

[3] Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness[sup]1[/sup] shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

[sup]1[/sup] Psalm 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:​

[4] Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

[5]Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, [i.e. Kingdom of heaven, vs. 21] and few there be that find it.

[6] Matt 7: 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say[sup]2[/sup] to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[7] Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[8] Matt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

[9] Matt 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.​

At the end of the world, “All things that offend/the wicked shall be cast into a furnace of fire.” What is the duration of burning in the fire? See Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.

[10] Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[11] Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily [αμην/amen] I say unto you, Except ye be converted[sup]3[/sup], and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

[12] Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] fire.
18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.​

See comments on Mark 9:43-48, below.

[13] Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

[14] Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. * * *
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
* * *
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

[15] Matt 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [the kingdom of heaven] yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
[…]
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

[16] Matt 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily, [αμην/amen] I say unto you, I know you not.

[17] Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[…]
46 And these shall go away into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] punishment: but the righteous into life eternal [αιωνιον/aiónion].​

In this passage Jesus calls the sinners, unrepentant, wicked, etc. “cursed.”

10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons from now, will God’s unchanging word, Jesus, still say, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, everlasting punishment?”

If the αιωνιον/aiónion punishment ends at some indeterminate time in the future, so too does the αιωνιον/aiónion life. The same word.

Does αιωνιον/aiónion punishment mean only indeterminate ages long, that will eventually end?

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: [εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

If the εις αιωνας αιωνων torment, of those who worship the beast and his image, and receive the mark of his name, ends at some, indeterminate, time in the future then the smoke is no longer theirs.

Does εις αιωνας αιωνων means some definite, finite, “eon of eons,” in the future, when the torment ends? No! 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons from now, God’s unchanging word will still say, “those who worship the beast, they have no rest day or night.,” “those who worship the image of the beast, they have no rest day or night.,” “those who receive the mark of the beast, they have no rest day or night.”

 

[Der Alte]

[18] Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.​

If the unrighteous, in “hades,” eventually leave, the worm would no longer be theirs or any concern to them. Why would Jesus warn his followers about worms, that do not die, three times, if it did not concern to them? Was Jesus concerned about the biology of worms, or the eternal souls of his followers?

If those in hell eventually leave, the unquenched fire did not concern them. Why did Jesus warn his followers about unquenched fire, three times, if it did not concern to them?

[19] Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.​

When a person dies rejecting, cursing, blaspheming, God and does not receive the Kingdom, Jesus said they shall not enter in. For universalism to be true either Jesus is a liar, or these words must change to, shall enter in.” When does that change occur?

There is no second chance to receive the Kingdom, after death.

Heb 9:27 “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”

[20] Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

[21] Luke 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.​

What is the portion of the unbelievers? αιωνιον/aiónion punishment, see Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.

Luke 13:23, below. Jesus said, “many shall not be able,” to enter the kingdom. Universalists claim that everyone will enter. Is Jesus a liar? Some time in the future will this verse change to say, “Everyone shall be able to enter?” When does that change occur?

[22] Luke 13: 23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

[23] Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. [of the kingdom of God.]

[24] Luke 16:22 [. . .] the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But [Jesus said] Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us[sup]4[/sup], that would come from thence.​

[sup]4[/sup] Note, those in “hades,” the place of torment, cannot leave. 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons from now God’s unchanging word will still say, “neither can they pass to us.”

Scoffers argue it is only a parable, if so, what is the point of the parable? In every legitimate parable, Jesus uses common, every day, events to illustrate or clarify, often unclear, spiritual truth. The only common, every day, events in this story are Lazarus begging and the rich man living high. Everything else occurs after the death of Lazarus and the rich man. What spiritual truth, for the living, is Jesus clarifying, or illustrating, by talking about things that happen after death, that his audience had never experienced?

In all the legitimate parables Jesus uses nonspecific persons, “a certain man,” “a certain king,” etc. In the thousands of years of history, someone said or did the things Jesus mentioned. Somebody, somewhere, lost sheep and coins, and found them, sowed seed, etc.

But Abraham is a specific, historical, person. If Abraham did not actually, in fact, speak to the rich man, in hades, and, literally, say the words, in blue, that Jesus quotes, Jesus is a liar.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 [Jesus said] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
[…]
31 [Jesus said] And he [Abraham] said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

[25] Luke 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.​

When a person dies rejecting, cursing, blaspheming, God, and does not receive the Kingdom, Jesus said they shall not enter in. For universalism to be true, either Jesus is a liar, or these words must change to, shall enter in.” When does this verse change?

[26] John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, [αμην αμην/amen amen] I say unto thee, Except a man be born again,[sup]5[/sup] he cannot see the kingdom of God.

[27] John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, [αμην αμην/amen amen] I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit][sup]5[/sup], he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.​

[sup]5[/sup] Note, is there any scripture, anywhere, showing anyone, ever, being born again, born of water, and the spirit, after death?

When does this verse change to “Even if a man is not born of water, and of the Spirit, he can still enter into the kingdom of God?”

[28] John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.​

When does Jesus say they are taken out of the fire? How long are they burned in the fire?

See Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.

Note in the most well known and loved passage in the N.T. Jesus did not say everyone was saved already. But he said they are condemned already.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.​

 

[Duckybill]

In Matthew 10:28 Yeshua tells us that we should fear the one who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell. Just because the fire is everlasting doesn't mean he will keep souls alive there forever. They will be burned-up just like the chaff.

CC

Hell Fire is ONE NASTY PLACE!

Mark 9:43-48 (NKJV)
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched-- 44 where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.' 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched-- 46where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.' 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire-- 48 where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'

 

[LJSGM]

Missing the whole point. God does not need to torture people endlessly... Nor would he do so, nor does the bible say he does.....

You have a couple of verses that may sound AS IF he does torture people endlessly, but upon further examination that's not what God was saying at all. It's the same with calvinist teachings, there SEEMS to be a few verses that support their belief, but upon further examination, they fall short, in logic as well as proof.

 

[LJSGM]

a fire that does not consume defeats the whole purpose of using fire to convey a meaning. Fire (as a punishment) has always, in every situation in the scriptures, been used to describe being completely burned up and destroyed....

2 Peter 2
6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

 

[The Penitent Man]

Drowning is not torture?

Not if death is immediate.

 

[Der Alte]

Missing the whole point. God does not need to torture people endlessly... Nor would he do so, nor does the bible say he does.....

Who appointed you the ultimate authority on what God does/does not do?

You have a couple of verses that may sound AS IF he does torture people endlessly, but upon further examination that's not what God was saying at all. [ . . . ]

Right! The church has been wrong for 2000 years +/- but you have the true truth. See my two post above your. Jesus speaking on the eternal punishment of the unrighteous.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7463551-42/#post55015005

a fire that does not consume defeats the whole purpose of using fire to convey a meaning. Fire (as a punishment) has always, in every situation in the scriptures, been used to describe being completely burned up and destroyed....

2 Peter 2
6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Two out-of-context proof texts which do not say what you think. See my two posts at the link above.

 

[Lisa*Lisa]

You know, I've been thinking about this all week. This concept of hell is something that I've had trouble with all of my life. How could god torture someone, but the bible says that god is love?

Well, I think I might understand it now. Hell was created for satan and his demons, not for people. God does not send you to hell, but if you don't believe in god, and you do not love god, then you go there by default because you can't hate god and be in His presence in heaven. It's just not possible.

So, people choose hell for themselves by refusing God because there are only 2 choices, heaven and everything outside of heaven, which is hell.

Now what I really want to know is after you die, is there a second chance? Once you see hell, can you repent and get out of hell?

I know alot of athiests, and I talk to them about this stuff all of the time because I"m very concerned for them, and that question did come up once or twice and I really don't know the answer.