Let's Talk About Hell (6)

[createdtoworship]

The New International Version (NIV) is a completely original translation of the Bible developed by more than one hundred scholars working from the best available Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts.
The initial vision for the project was provided by a single individual – an engineer working with General Electric in Seattle by the name of Howard Long. Long was a lifelong devotee of the King James Version, but when he shared it with his friends he was distressed to find that it just didn’t connect. Long saw the need for a translation that captured the truths he loved in the language that his contemporaries spoke.
For 10 years, Long and a growing group of like-minded supporters drove this idea. The passion of one man became the passion of a church, and ultimately the passion of a whole group of denominations. And finally, in 1965, after several years of preparatory study, a trans-denominational and international group of scholars met in Palos Heights, Illinois, and agreed to begin work on the project – determining to not simply adapt an existing English version of the Bible but to start from scratch with the best available manuscripts in the original languages. Their conclusion was endorsed by a large number of church leaders who met in Chicago in 1966.
A self-governing body of fifteen biblical scholars, the Committee on Bible Translation (CBT) was formed and charged with responsibility for the version, and in 1968 the New York Bible Society (which subsequently became the International Bible Society and then Biblica) generously undertook the financial sponsorship of the project. The translation of each book was assigned to translation teams, each made up of two lead translators, two translation consultants, and a stylistic consultant where necessary. The initial translations produced by these teams were carefully scrutinized and revised by intermediate editorial committees of five biblical scholars to check them against the source texts and assess them for comprehensibility. Each edited text was then submitted to a general committee of eight to twelve members before being distributed to selected outside critics and to all members of the CBT in preparation for a final review. Samples of the translation were tested for clarity and ease of reading with pastors, students, scholars, and lay people across the full breadth of the intended audience. Perhaps no other translation has undergone a more thorough process of review and revision. From the very start, the NIV sought to bring modern Bible readers as close as possible to the experience of the very first Bible readers: providing the best possible blend of transparency to the original documents and comprehension of the original meaning in every verse.

NIV USES DYNAMIC EQUIVALENCE INSTEAD OF WORD FOR WORD TRANSLATIONS LIKE ESV AND NASB/KJV.


DYNAMIC EQUIVALENCY AVOIDS TRADITIONAL ECCLESIASTICAL TERMS

Again we quote from the principles which were used by the Bible Society of India in producing the New Punjabi Bible: “In this translation the traditional language should be avoided” (The North India Churchman, June 1985, p. 10).

It is this principle which has resulted in the Today’s English Version’s obliteration of such “churchy” terms as “justification,” “sanctification,” “saint,” “redemption,” and “propitiation,” “elder,” “deacon” and “bishop.” Such terms have been changed to ones which even the unsaved can understand, even when this has meant seriously changing or weakening the meaning.

The Contemporary English Version is one of the most recently completed dynamic equivalency versions, and its translation of the above words illustrates this trend. Consider the following examples from this version:

Rev. 22:21—“The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all” (KJV) becomes “I pray that the Lord Jesus will be kind to all of you” (CEV). (The term “grace” means free unmerited favor and blessing” and it carries a lot of rich theological meaning when it is studied in the various contexts. To change this blessed Bible word to “kindness” is to dilute the Word of God and change its meaning.)

Eph. 2:8—“For by grace are ye saved through faith” (KJV) becomes “You were saved by faith in God’s kindness” (CEV). (Again, “grace” is changed to “kindness.” The dynamic equivalency translators have also changed almost everything else in this important verse.)

Phil. 1:1—“with the bishops and deacons” (KJV) becomes “to all of your church officials and officers” (CEV). (The terms “bishop” and “deacon” are technical and important terms that are used consistently in Scripture. To water these terms down to the vague “church officials and officers” is inexcusable.)

Phil. 1:1—“the saints in Christ” (KJV) becomes “all of God’s people who belong to Christ Jesus” (CEV). (The term “saint” means one who is set apart for God, one who is holy; it is from the same Greek words that are translated “holy” and “sanctify.” The term has a great depth of meaning when it is studied in the various contexts, but the dynamic equivalency translators typically choose one of the weakest definitions and replace the choice theological word with that definition.)

Rom. 3:10—“none righteous” (KJV) becomes “none acceptable to God” (CEV). (The term “righteous” means right living, godliness; by changing it to “acceptable,” the meaning is diluted and changed. It is true that sinners are not acceptable to God, but that is not what this verse says. The dynamic equivalency translators have interpreted the verse and given the readers their interpretation rather than a precise translation.)

Rom. 3:24—“being justified freely” (KJV) becomes “he freely accepts us” (CEV). (The term “justification” means declared righteous.”)

1 Cor. 6:11—“but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God” (KJV) becomes “But now the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and the power of God’s Spirit have washed you and made you acceptable to God” (CEV). (In this verse, in addition to many other changes, the glorious Bible terms “sanctified” and “justified” have been watered down to “made acceptable to God.”)

Consider some further examples which are given in Bible Translations for Popular Use by William L. Wonderly. This book was published by the United Bible Societies and is a standard work on dynamic equivalency methods.

In Jn. 1:14 “full of grace and truth” becomes “full of love and truth” in the Spanish CL version. (Do we have to point out that love is not the same as grace?)

The “grace did much more abound” of Rom. 5:20 becomes “the kindness of God was very much greater” in the Spanish CL version. (Again, “grace” means more than the mere “kindness of God.”)

In Rom. 1:5 “By whom we have received grace and apostleship” becomes “God has given us the privilege of being sent” in the Spanish CL version. (This “translation” is so different from the original that it is almost unrecognizable.)

In 2 Cor. 8:6 “this same grace also” becomes “this kind offering” in the Spanish CL version.

In Gal. 2:9 “perceived the grace that was given unto me” becomes “recognized that God had given me this special task” in the TEV.

In Acts 13:39 “by him all that believe are justified from all things” becomes “by means of him that all those who believe are forgiven of all” in the Spanish CL version. (The term “justified” means more than merely “being forgiven.”)

The problem here is two-fold: First, the terms chosen to replace the original Bible words do not sufficiently communicate the exact meaning of the original. Saints means more than those who belong to God. Grace means more than kindness, or favor, or privilege. Justification means more than forgiven. Secondly, the entire idea that these terms are ecclesiastical, or churchy, is erroneous. They are the terms by which God chose to communicate the Truth. They are heavenly terms, and have only become known as church terms because they were given to the churches and are held to be precious by God’s people. To change them and water them down is a great evil.

from

Dynamic Equivalency: Its Influence and Error

 

[he-man]

the soul is not the body, what about the souls under the altar that have been martyred for the cause of Christ in revelation?

Rev 6:9 ...under the altar the souls <G5590>
&#968;&#965;&#967;&#951;&#769; psuche&#772; From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit
The soul is the body. The Spirit is not the body, the Spirit is the "BREATH of Life" which returns to God for the awakening when and if He so desires,

Mr 15:37 And letting go in a great voice, Jesus breathed out.

 

[createdtoworship]

Rev 6:9 ...under the altar the souls <G5590>
&#968;&#965;&#967;&#951;&#769; psuche&#772; From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit
The soul is the body. The Spirit is not the body, the Spirit is the "BREATH of Life" which returns to God for the awakening when and if He so desires,

Mr 15:37 And letting go in a great voice, Jesus breathed out.

who's implication, yours. Because you don't want soul to mean breath?

when it means breath in every other instance?

 

[BobRyan]

Somebody needs to study Greek 101
2Co 5:8 But we are bold, and &#921; think well rather to be out of the country and from the body to be native with regard to the Lord.

Indeed - either the actual Greek - or an actual Bible.

There is in fact no such text saying "TO BE absent from the body IS to BE present with the Lord" - no not in all of scripture - not even in 2Cor 5:8.

The "TO BE" and "IS TO BE" key elements are missing.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Timothew]

NIV USES DYNAMIC EQUIVALENCE INSTEAD OF WORD FOR WORD TRANSLATIONS LIKE ESV AND NASB/KJV.


DYNAMIC EQUIVALENCY AVOIDS TRADITIONAL ECCLESIASTICAL TERMS

Again we quote from the principles which were used by the Bible Society of India in producing the New Punjabi Bible: “In this translation the traditional language should be avoided” (The North India Churchman, June 1985, p. 10).

It is this principle which has resulted in the Today’s English Version’s obliteration of such “churchy” terms as “justification,” “sanctification,” “saint,” “redemption,” and “propitiation,” “elder,” “deacon” and “bishop.” Such terms have been changed to ones which even the unsaved can understand, even when this has meant seriously changing or weakening the meaning.

The Contemporary English Version is one of the most recently completed dynamic equivalency versions, and its translation of the above words illustrates this trend. Consider the following examples from this version:

Rev. 22:21—“The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all” (KJV) becomes “I pray that the Lord Jesus will be kind to all of you” (CEV). (The term “grace” means free unmerited favor and blessing” and it carries a lot of rich theological meaning when it is studied in the various contexts. To change this blessed Bible word to “kindness” is to dilute the Word of God and change its meaning.)

Eph. 2:8—“For by grace are ye saved through faith” (KJV) becomes “You were saved by faith in God’s kindness” (CEV). (Again, “grace” is changed to “kindness.” The dynamic equivalency translators have also changed almost everything else in this important verse.)

Phil. 1:1—“with the bishops and deacons” (KJV) becomes “to all of your church officials and officers” (CEV). (The terms “bishop” and “deacon” are technical and important terms that are used consistently in Scripture. To water these terms down to the vague “church officials and officers” is inexcusable.)

Phil. 1:1—“the saints in Christ” (KJV) becomes “all of God’s people who belong to Christ Jesus” (CEV). (The term “saint” means one who is set apart for God, one who is holy; it is from the same Greek words that are translated “holy” and “sanctify.” The term has a great depth of meaning when it is studied in the various contexts, but the dynamic equivalency translators typically choose one of the weakest definitions and replace the choice theological word with that definition.)

Rom. 3:10—“none righteous” (KJV) becomes “none acceptable to God” (CEV). (The term “righteous” means right living, godliness; by changing it to “acceptable,” the meaning is diluted and changed. It is true that sinners are not acceptable to God, but that is not what this verse says. The dynamic equivalency translators have interpreted the verse and given the readers their interpretation rather than a precise translation.)

Rom. 3:24—“being justified freely” (KJV) becomes “he freely accepts us” (CEV). (The term “justification” means declared righteous.”)

1 Cor. 6:11—“but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God” (KJV) becomes “But now the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and the power of God’s Spirit have washed you and made you acceptable to God” (CEV). (In this verse, in addition to many other changes, the glorious Bible terms “sanctified” and “justified” have been watered down to “made acceptable to God.”)

Consider some further examples which are given in Bible Translations for Popular Use by William L. Wonderly. This book was published by the United Bible Societies and is a standard work on dynamic equivalency methods.

In Jn. 1:14 “full of grace and truth” becomes “full of love and truth” in the Spanish CL version. (Do we have to point out that love is not the same as grace?)

The “grace did much more abound” of Rom. 5:20 becomes “the kindness of God was very much greater” in the Spanish CL version. (Again, “grace” means more than the mere “kindness of God.”)

In Rom. 1:5 “By whom we have received grace and apostleship” becomes “God has given us the privilege of being sent” in the Spanish CL version. (This “translation” is so different from the original that it is almost unrecognizable.)

In 2 Cor. 8:6 “this same grace also” becomes “this kind offering” in the Spanish CL version.

In Gal. 2:9 “perceived the grace that was given unto me” becomes “recognized that God had given me this special task” in the TEV.

In Acts 13:39 “by him all that believe are justified from all things” becomes “by means of him that all those who believe are forgiven of all” in the Spanish CL version. (The term “justified” means more than merely “being forgiven.”)

The problem here is two-fold: First, the terms chosen to replace the original Bible words do not sufficiently communicate the exact meaning of the original. Saints means more than those who belong to God. Grace means more than kindness, or favor, or privilege. Justification means more than forgiven. Secondly, the entire idea that these terms are ecclesiastical, or churchy, is erroneous. They are the terms by which God chose to communicate the Truth. They are heavenly terms, and have only become known as church terms because they were given to the churches and are held to be precious by God’s people. To change them and water them down is a great evil.

from

Dynamic Equivalency: Its Influence and Error

First of all, you know that there is no word for word translation of the greek text into english. It wouldn't make any sense. So every translation is a dynamic equivalent translation to a greater or lesser degree.

Secondly, you were talking about the NIV, but in this post you switched and are now talking about the shortcomings of the CEV, which I've never read or quoted.

Third, you said that the NIV is a "liberal" translation, but it was checked by a group of people from a wide spectrum of beliefs, not just liberals, as my post showed. It doesn't just look at the KJV and switch out words they don't like, as your post suggests. The translators started fresh from the best and earliest greek and hebrew manuscripts they could find. "no other translation has undergone a more thorough process of review and revision."
The only problem with the NIV is that it is different from the KJV, and some people can't stand that.

 

[createdtoworship]

First of all, you know that there is no word for word translation of the greek text into english. It wouldn't make any sense. So every translation is a dynamic equivalent translation to a greater or lesser degree.

Secondly, you were talking about the NIV, but in this post you switched and are now talking about the shortcomings of the CEV, which I've never read or quoted.

Third, you said that the NIV is a "liberal" translation, but it was checked by a group of people from a wide spectrum of beliefs, not just liberals, as my post showed. It doesn't just look at the KJV and switch out words they don't like, as your post suggests. The translators started fresh from the best and earliest greek and hebrew manuscripts they could find. "no other translation has undergone a more thorough process of review and revision."
The only problem with the NIV is that it is different from the KJV, and some people can't stand that.

that was to show the problem with modern translations and dynamic equivalent.

secondly, here is a more detailed comparison of NIV and KJV

from
The New International Version - NIV

I am not KJV only, but I like NKJV and ESV and NASB, but not always.

 

[he-man]

who's implication, yours. Because you don't want soul to mean breath?

when it means breath in every other instance?

You have confused the mortal soul with the immortal.

The word for BODY in the OT is: Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. [mortal]H5315

H5315 nephesh From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly)

Num 19:13 Whosoever toucheth the dead body H5315 of any man that is dead, and purifieth not himself, defileth the tabernacle of the LORD; and that soul H5315 shall be cut off from Israel:

The word for BODY in the NT is: Luk 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body G4983 is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
G4983 &#963;&#969;&#834;&#956;&#945;From G4982; the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively: - bodily, body, slave.

The word for SPIRIT in the OT is: Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit H7307 of God moved upon the face of the waters.
H7307 ru&#770;ach From H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, that is, a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions): - air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).

The word for SPIRIT in the NT is: Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit G4151 to them that ask him?

G4151 &#960;&#957;&#949;&#965;&#834;&#956;&#945; pneuma From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind.

 

[createdtoworship]

You have confused the mortal soul with the immortal.

The word for BODY in the OT is: Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. [mortal]H5315

H5315 nephesh From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly)

Num 19:13 Whosoever toucheth the dead body H5315 of any man that is dead, and purifieth not himself, defileth the tabernacle of the LORD; and that soul H5315 shall be cut off from Israel:

The word for BODY in the NT is: Luk 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body G4983 is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
G4983 &#963;&#969;&#834;&#956;&#945;From G4982; the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively: - bodily, body, slave.

The word for SPIRIT in the OT is: Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit H7307 of God moved upon the face of the waters.
H7307 ru&#770;ach From H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, that is, a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions): - air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).

The word for SPIRIT in the NT is: Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit G4151 to them that ask him?

G4151 &#960;&#957;&#949;&#965;&#834;&#956;&#945; pneuma From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind.

I haven't confused anything

Your verses speak of the death of the Body not the soul, there is not a single verse that speaks of the death of the soul.

The rest of your post you deal with soul sleep, which is a common misconception:

Soul Sleep problems
Problem Verses

There are multiple passages that show the dead are conscious after death.

1st Samuel 28:11-19 - samuel talked with a witch after death

Matthew 12:40 (Jonah 2) – Jonah spoke as one from hell who was dead.

Matthew 17:2-3 – Moses and Elias were talking with Jesus after their death.

Matthew 22:31-32 – Abraham was dead, but still living.

Luke 16:19-31 – Jesus tells the story of dead people speaking in hell. (Some wrongly think this is a parable. It is not. If soul sleep were true then the story is not only false, but the Lord is misleading his hearers as to what is real. This is significant evidence that the dead are not only conscious but can speak and feel.)

Luke 23:43 – Jesus says the malefactor will be in paradise with him “today”.

1 Thessalonians 5:10 – Whether they wake or sleep they live with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 – Paul explains that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 – Paul describes someone who heard things possibly out of his body.

Philippians 1:23 – Paul says that he would depart to be with Christ, not unconscious.

Revelation 6:9-11 – The souls of the dead are crying out to God.

Problem Definitions

Many of the concepts below are misunderstood, denied, or ignored by those who teach the unconscious dead.

Death does not mean unconsciousness, but rather separation. The only time it means cessation of activity is when it applies to the body.

Body is not the soul; soul is not the body; spirit is not the soul.

Sleep never refers to the soul or spirit. It only applies to the body.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Norman Geisler....

GENESIS 2:7—Does this verse prove that human beings do not have a soul that survives death?

MISINTERPRETATION: Jehovah’s Witnesses cite this verse to prove that man does not have a soul that is distinct from the body. “Bible usage shows the soul to be a person or an animal or the life that a person or an animal enjoys” (Mankind’s Search for God, 1990, 125). Hence, people are souls in the sense that they are living beings, not in the sense that they have an immaterial nature that survives death.

CORRECTING THE MISINTERPRETATION: In Genesis 2:7 the Hebrew word for “soul” (nephesh) means “living being.” However, this Hebrew word is a rich one, carrying various nuances of meaning in different contexts. A fundamental mistake beginning Hebrew and Greek students sometimes make is to assume that, if a Hebrew or Greek word is used in a particular way in one verse, it must mean the same thing in all its other uses. But this is simply wrong. The fact is, Hebrew and Greek words can have different nuances of meaning in different contexts. The word nephesh is an example. While the word means “living being” in Genesis 2:7, the word refers to a soul or spirit as distinct from the body in Genesis 35:18.
Moreover, when we examine what the whole of Scripture teaches about the soul, it is clear that the Watchtower Society (Jehovah’s Witnesses) position is wrong. For example, Revelation 6:9–10 refers to disembodied souls under God’s altar (it would be nonsense to interpret the reference to “soul” in this verse as “living being”—“I saw underneath the altar the living beings of those who had been slain”). First Thessalonians 4:13–17 says Christ will bring with him the souls and spirits of those who are now with him in heaven and will reunite their spirits to resurrection bodies. In Philippians 1:21–23 Paul says it’s better to depart and be with Christ. In 2 Corinthians 5:6–8 Paul says that to be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord. Clearly, the whole of Scripture teaches that each person has a soul that survives death.

Geisler, Norman L. ; Rhodes, Ron: When Cultists Ask : A Popular Handbook on Cultic Misinterpretations. Grand Rapids, Mich. : Baker Books, 1997, S. 23
__________________

 

[createdtoworship]

Indeed - either the actual Greek - or an actual Bible.

There is in fact no such text saying "TO BE absent from the body IS to BE present with the Lord" - no not in all of scripture - not even in 2Cor 5:8.

The "TO BE" and "IS TO BE" key elements are missing.

in Christ,

Bob

actually the first "to be" is quite literal. The second one can be implied as home. but home is not in the greek anywhere.

 

[Timothew]

Np

 

[he-man]

Np

 

[createdtoworship]

Yp

 

[he-man]

Yp

 

[BobRyan]

Indeed - either the actual Greek - or an actual Bible.

There is in fact no such text saying "TO BE absent from the body IS to BE present with the Lord" - no not in all of scripture - not even in 2Cor 5:8.

The "TO BE" and "IS TO BE" key elements are missing.

actually the first "to be" is quite literal. The second one can be implied as home. but home is not in the greek anywhere.

The problem with the first to be --- without the much imagined second one --- (as even you will agree that the 2nd one is not there) - is that you can have "to be absent from the body is simply the stated of being dead" as an example of no "second to be".

Another example is "to be absent from the body and then at some point to be present with the Lord".

But if we make it "IS TO BE" then we are creating a definition -- we are saying that by definition "to be" absent from the body "IS TO BE" present or at home with the Lord. It would make a wonderful text (if it actually existed) for those who do believe such things - but without it actually existing I do not agree with those who might want to find a way to eisegete it in. Hopefully you would not agree with them on that point either.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[createdtoworship]

Indeed - either the actual Greek - or an actual Bible.

There is in fact no such text saying "TO BE absent from the body IS to BE present with the Lord" - no not in all of scripture - not even in 2Cor 5:8.

The "TO BE" and "IS TO BE" key elements are missing.



The problem with the first to be --- without the much imagined second one --- (as even you will agree that the 2nd one is not there) - is that you can have "to be absent from the body is simply the stated of being dead" as an example of no "second to be".

Another example is "to be absent from the body and then at some point to be present with the Lord".

But if we make it "IS TO BE" then we are creating a definition -- we are saying that by definition "to be" absent from the body "IS TO BE" present or at home with the Lord. It would make a wonderful text (if it actually existed) for those who do believe such things - but without it actually existing I do not agree with those who might want to find a way to eisegete it in. Hopefully you would not agree with them on that point either.

in Christ,

Bob

I am not following your line or reasoning. Secondly, what else leaves at death and is at home with the Lord? Only the soul could do that.

 

[Timothew]

The soul who sins is the one who will die.
Ezekiel 18:4

According to the bible, the soul doesn't leave the body at death and go somewhere else to live. According to the bible, the soul who sins is the one who will die.

Paul said "my hope is in the resurrection of the dead." When we are resurrected from the dead, then we are at home with the Lord. I agree with the Apostle Paul, my hope is in the resurrection of the dead.

 

[createdtoworship]

Another example is "to be absent from the body and then at some point to be present with the Lord".

but this is your opinion because there is no way the soul can be without the body right?

first, your context is wrong:

So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

you have to change two verses if you are to take the "is to be " out of the text. Must alter also verse 6 which is the back side of the coin.


secondly , what about these:

There are multiple passages that show the dead are conscious after death.

1st Samuel 28:11-19 - samuel talked with a witch after death

Matthew 12:40 (Jonah 2) &#8211; Jonah spoke as one from hell who was dead.

Matthew 17:2-3 &#8211; Moses and Elias were talking with Jesus after their death.

Matthew 22:31-32 &#8211; Abraham was dead, but still living.

Luke 16:19-31 &#8211; Jesus tells the story of dead people speaking in hell. (Some wrongly think this is a parable. It is not. If soul sleep were true then the story is not only false, but the Lord is misleading his hearers as to what is real. This is significant evidence that the dead are not only conscious but can speak and feel.)

Luke 23:43 &#8211; Jesus says the malefactor will be in paradise with him &#8220;today&#8221;.

1 Thessalonians 5:10 &#8211; Whether they wake or sleep they live with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 &#8211; Paul explains that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 &#8211; Paul describes someone who heard things possibly out of his body.

Philippians 1:23 &#8211; Paul says that he would depart to be with Christ, not unconscious.

Revelation 6:9-11 &#8211; The souls of the dead are crying out to God.

Problem Definitions

Many of the concepts below are misunderstood, denied, or ignored by those who teach the unconscious dead.

Death does not mean unconsciousness, but rather separation. The only time it means cessation of activity is when it applies to the body.

Body is not the soul; soul is not the body; spirit is not the soul.

Sleep never refers to the soul or spirit. It only applies to the body.

 

[createdtoworship]

The soul who sins is the one who will die.
Ezekiel 18:4

According to the bible, the soul doesn't leave the body at death and go somewhere else to live. According to the bible, the soul who sins is the one who will die.

Paul said "my hope is in the resurrection of the dead." When we are resurrected from the dead, then we are at home with the Lord. I agree with the Apostle Paul, my hope is in the resurrection of the dead.

if the soul doesn't leave the body what about these:



There are multiple passages that show the dead are conscious after death.

1st Samuel 28:11-19 - samuel talked with a witch after death

Matthew 12:40 (Jonah 2) – Jonah spoke as one from hell who was dead.

Matthew 17:2-3 – Moses and Elias were talking with Jesus after their death.

Matthew 22:31-32 – Abraham was dead, but still living.

Luke 16:19-31 – Jesus tells the story of dead people speaking in hell. (Some wrongly think this is a parable. It is not. If soul sleep were true then the story is not only false, but the Lord is misleading his hearers as to what is real. This is significant evidence that the dead are not only conscious but can speak and feel.)

Luke 23:43 – Jesus says the malefactor will be in paradise with him “today”.

1 Thessalonians 5:10 – Whether they wake or sleep they live with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 – Paul explains that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 – Paul describes someone who heard things possibly out of his body.

Philippians 1:23 – Paul says that he would depart to be with Christ, not unconscious.

Revelation 6:9-11 – The souls of the dead are crying out to God.

Problem Definitions

Many of the concepts below are misunderstood, denied, or ignored by those who teach the unconscious dead.

Death does not mean unconsciousness, but rather separation. The only time it means cessation of activity is when it applies to the body.

Body is not the soul; soul is not the body; spirit is not the soul.

Sleep never refers to the soul or spirit. It only applies to the body.

 

[Timothew]

if the soul doesn't leave the body what about these:



There are multiple passages that show the dead are conscious after death.

1st Samuel 28:11-19 - samuel talked with a witch after death

Matthew 12:40 (Jonah 2) – Jonah spoke as one from hell who was dead.

Matthew 17:2-3 – Moses and Elias were talking with Jesus after their death.

Matthew 22:31-32 – Abraham was dead, but still living.

Luke 16:19-31 – Jesus tells the story of dead people speaking in hell. (Some wrongly think this is a parable. It is not. If soul sleep were true then the story is not only false, but the Lord is misleading his hearers as to what is real. This is significant evidence that the dead are not only conscious but can speak and feel.)

Luke 23:43 – Jesus says the malefactor will be in paradise with him “today”.

1 Thessalonians 5:10 – Whether they wake or sleep they live with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 – Paul explains that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 – Paul describes someone who heard things possibly out of his body.

Philippians 1:23 – Paul says that he would depart to be with Christ, not unconscious.

Revelation 6:9-11 – The souls of the dead are crying out to God.

Problem Definitions

Many of the concepts below are misunderstood, denied, or ignored by those who teach the unconscious dead.

Death does not mean unconsciousness, but rather separation. The only time it means cessation of activity is when it applies to the body.

Body is not the soul; soul is not the body; spirit is not the soul.

Sleep never refers to the soul or spirit. It only applies to the body.

These passages do not show that dead people are alive as disembodied souls. Not one of these passages says that. But as I have shown from the bible, the soul that sins will die. This specifically says that the soul can die and it will. Jesus also said that the soul can be destroyed. If you believe otherwise, then you have a misunderstanding. I say that in kindness, so that you may overcome your misunderstanding and believe as Jesus and Ezekiel believe. I won't discuss your passages "en masse". If you have a specific point, I can address them one by one.

 

[visionary]

Okay, tell me where it says the dead people are conscious.

I don't think it can be found.