Let's Talk About Hell (6)

[createdtoworship]

I won't discuss your passages "en masse". If you have a specific point, I can address them one by one.

Why not address Bible lists? Some people here like to use bible lists as a daily activity in this forum!

These passages do not show that dead people are alive as disembodied souls. Not one of these passages says that. But as I have shown from the bible, the soul that sins will die. This specifically says that the soul can die and it will. Jesus also said that the soul can be destroyed. If you believe otherwise, then you have a misunderstanding. I say that in kindness, so that you may overcome your misunderstanding and believe as Jesus and Ezekiel believe.

lets look at 1 samuel 28:11-19 where a woman conjures up the spirit of old samuel the prophet and the king and the woman speak with Him...
(KJV)

11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.

12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

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the point being is while the righteous spirits of departed men and woman awaited in paradise, they could be conjured up. But now after the temple has been ripped and the doors of hell have been captive they were freed up to go to the third heaven with the saviour.

 

[Timothew]

Why not address Bible lists? Some people here like to use bible lists as a daily activity in this forum!



lets look at 1 samuel 28:11-19 where a woman conjures up the spirit of old samuel the prophet and the king and the woman speak with Him...
(KJV)

11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.

12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

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the point being is while the righteous spirits of departed men and woman awaited in paradise, they could be conjured up. But now after the temple has been ripped and the doors of hell have been captive they were freed up to go to the third heaven with the saviour.

So now that you have read the passage, you see that it is not a disembodied spirit or soul (or ghost, wraith or any other such thing) that appeared, but it was Samuel himself.

So this passage does nothing to prove your point.

 

[visionary]

nahhh... the appearance is as good as any seance can bring you

 

[createdtoworship]

nahhh... the appearance is as good as any seance can bring you

problem is there was delivered a legitimate prophecy DELIVERED HERE regarding the kingdom going to David.

 

[createdtoworship]

So now that you have read the passage, you see that it is not a disembodied spirit or soul (or ghost, wraith or any other such thing) that appeared, but it was Samuel himself.

So this passage does nothing to prove your point.

Not his body, it's not like he crawled out of the tomb with dirt falling off his face, it was a spirit or ghost (or soul) arising from out of solid matter

 

[visionary]

problem is there was delivered a legitimate prophecy DELIVERED HERE regarding the kingdom going to David.

delivered where?

 

[createdtoworship]

delivered where?

in the following verses:

1 samuel 28-16-20
16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

17 And the Lord hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the Lord hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:

18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the Lord, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the Lord done this thing unto thee this day.

19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the Lord also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

20 Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.

 

[Timothew]

Not his body, it's not like he crawled out of the tomb with dirt falling off his face, it was a spirit or ghost (or soul) arising from out of solid matter

I know that this is your belief concerning the passage, but where is the scriptural evidence of it? You claim that this passage is proof of people living after they are dead as "souls" without bodies. The passage doesn't support that conclusion. The passage says Samuel came up. It doesn't say a spirit, ghost or "soul" arose "from out of solid matter."

 

[createdtoworship]

I know that this is your belief concerning the passage, but where is the scriptural evidence of it? You claim that this passage is proof of people living after they are dead as "souls" without bodies. The passage doesn't support that conclusion. The passage says Samuel came up. It doesn't say a spirit, ghost or "soul" arose "from out of solid matter."

I mean what are the odds that they summoned up Samuel in the same locality that He was buried in a grave? I mean can you imagine honestly a dead Samuel commuting to the spot where they were? As a dead being being conjured up? And walking around miles perhaps.

 

[BobRyan]

So now that you have read the passage, you see that it is not a disembodied spirit or soul (or ghost, wraith or any other such thing) that appeared, but it was Samuel himself.

So this passage does nothing to prove your point.

Saul says to the witch "conjure up for me whomever I request'-

"Context" is everything in exegeting a chapter. In this chapter we are told that God forbids all prophets to speak to Saul and we are told that God forbids witches to practice their deceptive arts with their familiar spirits pretending to be the spirits of the dead.

But the witch claims to have the power over the dead saints to bring up whomever you may wish from the dead.

Who shall we believe - the witch or God? Here is a man who turned to Christianity after being diverted into spiritism "conjuring the dead"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81rcXFjHzqA&feature=channel&list=UL

in Christ,

Bob

 

[createdtoworship]

Saul says to the witch "conjure up for me whomever I request'-

"Context" is everything in exegeting a chapter. In this chapter we are told that God forbids all prophets to speak to Saul and we are told that God forbids witches to practice their deceptive arts with their familiar spirits pretending to be the spirits of the dead.

But the witch claims to have the power over the dead saints to bring up whomever you may wish from the dead.

Who shall we believe - the witch or God?

in Christ,

Bob

well she could conjure up rightous souls because they were awaiting for Jesus in paradise. Notice that She doesn't say this regarding non saints, for they were imprisoned in hades. But note that the samual offers a legitimate last prophecy of sorts even after he was conjured up. Notice that He didn't like being conjured up because he was in paradise. And he asks "And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?"

 

[Timothew]

So, I have to take this passage as proof that there are living souls after death, when it doesn't say that? Your belief that Samuel was conjured up as the living soul of a dead person is not proof that Samuel was conjured up as a living soul of a dead person. The passage says that Samuel came up. There is no indication that Samuel was anything other than Samuel.

 

[createdtoworship]

So, I have to take this passage as proof that there are living souls after death, when it doesn't say that? Your belief that Samuel was conjured up as the living soul of a dead person is not proof that Samuel was conjured up as a living soul of a dead person. The passage says that Samuel came up. There is no indication that Samuel was anything other than Samuel.

so in order to believe that, we must assume that He rose bodily from the grave of His death, and commuted hours on foot perhaps to the location of where this conjuring up was happening.

 

[Timothew]

so in order to believe that, we must assume that He rose bodily from the grave of His death, and commuted hours on foot perhaps to the location of where this conjuring up was happening.

If MY whole argument depended on Samuel being a ghost, I would need to prove it. Since YOUR whole argument depends on Samuel being a ghost, you need to prove it.

 

[createdtoworship]

If MY whole argument depended on Samuel being a ghost, I would need to prove it. Since YOUR whole argument depends on Samuel being a ghost, you need to prove it.

there is only two options how I see it. He was conjured "up" from solid ground in the form of a spirit/ghost/soul or he was not. And He was raised physically. If He was raised physically He would have had to walk from the place He physically was buried TO the place they were at. Do you think there was time from the point Saul named samual to the point where samuel was talking and prophecying for samuel to commute physically from the grave to the location of this meeting? That is hopeful thinking there. Just admit defeat and accept that this was a soul not a physical resurrection.

 

[createdtoworship]

If MY whole argument depended on Samuel being a ghost, I would need to prove it. Since YOUR whole argument depends on Samuel being a ghost, you need to prove it.

secondly, if He rose physically and was not a soul then He would have to physically die or crawl back in the grave. Possibly live out His life and die again. But what evidence do you have of this tim?

No evidence against one possiition is evidence FOR the other.

 

[Timothew]

secondly, if He rose physically and was not a soul then He would have to physically die or crawl back in the grave. Possibly live out His life and die again. But what evidence do you have of this tim?

No evidence against one possiition is evidence FOR the other.

And he would have to get a job to support himself, and the story doesn't say anything about Samuel applying for a job.

Your "evidence" that Samuel was a living soul after he died is just speculation, so I don't accept this story as proof that souls are alive after a person dies and must therefore "go somewhere".

Also remember that the bible says "the soul that sins must die". If souls don't die, as you are saying, then that passage is false.

 

[createdtoworship]

And he would have to get a job to support himself, and the story doesn't say anything about Samuel applying for a job.

Your "evidence" that Samuel was a living soul after he died is just speculation, so I don't accept this story as proof that souls are alive after a person dies and must therefore "go somewhere".

Also remember that the bible says "the soul that sins must die". If souls don't die, as you are saying, then that passage is false.

souls don't die in the grave as the passage in samuel proclaims.
BTW there is a lot it doesn't say in the passage, these are implications that the passage makes that must be happening in order for the events to take place. It is possible Samuel didn't need a job because He went back down into His paradise after the prophesying. Only in your theory must he have had to die a natural death again because it wasn't a soul being conjured up but a whole bodily resurrection. Can't you see your error here?

(also, The verse regarding "the soul that sins shall die" is mentioning eternal Hell in the lake of fire. Not the grave.)

 

[LutheranMafia]

The passage says that Samuel came up. There is no indication that Samuel was anything other than Samuel.

Then how come Saul couldn't see Samuel, only the witch could? Clearly the witch saw a spirit. She said she saw an elohim, which almost never refers to a physical being. Secondly, how do you suppose the witch of Endor got the ability to resurrect the dead? You are way out on a limb here, not even the JW's would argee with you on this one.

 

[LutheranMafia]

My yearning desire is to depart (to be free of this world, to set forth) and be with Christ, for that is far, far better; but to remain in my body is more needful and essential for your sake.
Philippians 1:23-24
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This is my favorite of the verses that Grady listed. This is even more clear than 2 Corinthians 5:8. There is evidence of a time delay here between the onset of death and being with Christ.