Let's Talk About Hell (6)

[createdtoworship]

And what does that have to do with the truth of the prophecy?

everything, daniel is the key to the symbology of revelation which timothy said could not be understood and therefore thrown aside.

And why do you not answer these scriptures that refute your fallacies of mistaken beliefs?

as usual your verses are posting off topic. What does your verses have to do with Hell? This is why I keep ignoring them.

 

[Timothew]

everything, daniel is the key to the symbology of revelation which timothy said could not be understood and therefore thrown aside.

as usual your verses are posting off topic. What does your verses have to do with Hell? This is why I keep ignoring them.

No, you said that even John who wrote it didn't understand it. I said that if that's true, the author doesn't understand it, then why draw doctrine from it? But it isn't true. John did understand what he wrote. You don't.

 

[createdtoworship]

No, you said that even John who wrote it didn't understand it. I said that if that's true, the author doesn't understand it, then why draw doctrine from it? But it isn't true. John did understand what he wrote. You don't.

why have interpretations of dreams if everyone understands the dream?

 

[dollarsbill]

Can you translate this?
καὶ χωρὶς παραβολῆς οὐδὲν ἐλάλει

It doesn't say it's a parable. It is CLEARLY LITERAL with LITERAL people.

 

[dollarsbill]

dead means dead, but its talking about the body not the soul.

It's so simple.

 

[Timothew]

Originally Posted by Timothew

Can you translate this?
καὶ χωρὶς παραβολῆς οὐδὲν ἐλάλει
​

It doesn't say it's a parable. It is CLEARLY LITERAL with LITERAL people.

That isn't the translation.

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 10:28 "Fear him who is able to DESTROY BOTH body and soul in fiery hell"

That says it all.

 

[Timothew]

Matt 10:28 "Fear him who is able to DESTROY BOTH body and soul in fiery hell"

That says it all.

It's so simple.

 

[BobRyan]

a second death is required so something must be alive after the first death.

True - something remains to be "dormant" to be "asleep"

"Our FRIEND Lazarus sleeps! I go that I may wake HIM" John 11.

In this life they can "kill the body but not the soul" Matt 10:28.

The soul goes into dormancy "regarding those who have FALLEN asleep... the DEAD in Christ will rise first" 1Thess 4.

All sleep in the first death.

The "spirit goes back to God who gave it" Eccl 12:7

The body "returns to the dust" Eccl 12:7 -- it does not "Sleep"

1Cor 15 the "body that is raised is not the one that is sown in the ground"


The first body is our "decaying tent" 2Cor 5:1-2. We "have it". It is something "we" HAVE - not that we ARE it.

The second body - the one given at the resurrection is "eternal made in the heavens" 2Cor 5:1-2.

 

[dollarsbill]

Yes, don't forget about the resurrection on the last day.

1. First death

Still exist.

2. Resurrection (and judgement)
3. Second death (or eternal life for those in Christ)

After the second death they still exist:

Revelation 20:10 (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 20:14-15 (NASB)
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[Timothew]

Still exist.

After the second death they still exist:

Revelation 20:10 (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 20:14-15 (NASB)
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

The lake of fire is the second death. Not eternal life being tortured.

 

[dollarsbill]

The lake of fire is the second death. Not eternal life being tortured.

You just contradicted yourself and the Scripture .

Revelation 20:10 (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Timothew]

You just contradicted yourself and the Scripture .

Revelation 20:10 (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The wages of sin is death.

 

[Timothew]

You just contradicted yourself and the Scripture .

You contradict so much scripture with your belief in eternal torment. Why don't you just give it up? If the penalty for sin is eternal torture in hell, why didn't Moses say that even once when he gave the Hebrews the law? Did Moses know that the penalty for sin was to be tortured in fire forever and ever and he just kept it a secret when he gave the law? Or was Moses mistaken when he gave the law?

 

[dollarsbill]

You contradict so much scripture with your belief in eternal torment. Why don't you just give it up? If the penalty for sin is eternal torture in hell, why didn't Moses say that even once when he gave the Hebrews the law? Did Moses know that the penalty for sin was to be tortured in fire forever and ever and he just kept it a secret when he gave the law? Or was Moses mistaken when he gave the law?

You didn't address the Scripture I presented. After being cast into the Lake of Fire they still exist in torment. That is 'the second death'.

 

[Timothew]

You didn't address the Scripture I presented. After being cast into the Lake of Fire they still exist in torment. That is 'the second death'.

If it is the second death (and it is) then they are dead. They are not living in torment. You HAVE to read the Book of Revelation as the Book of Revelation and you HAVE to read it in the light of ALL of the rest of Scripture. I will not take one verse out of context from the BOR and use it to discredit all of the rest of scripture. You found one verse that seems to support your POV. Congratulations.

So that means that either Moses knew that breaking the law would result in eternal torment in hell and he kept it a secret OR He didn't know that breaking the law would result in eternal torment in hell, which means that God kept it a secret from Moses. Which of these two matches YOUR belief?

 

[createdtoworship]

True - something remains to be "dormant" to be "asleep"

"Our FRIEND Lazarus sleeps! I go that I may wake HIM" John 11.

In this life they can "kill the body but not the soul" Matt 10:28.

The soul goes into dormancy "regarding those who have FALLEN asleep... the DEAD in Christ will rise first" 1Thess 4.

All sleep in the first death.

The "spirit goes back to God who gave it" Eccl 12:7

The body "returns to the dust" Eccl 12:7 -- it does not "Sleep"

1Cor 15 the "body that is raised is not the one that is sown in the ground"


The first body is our "decaying tent" 2Cor 5:1-2. We "have it". It is something "we" HAVE - not that we ARE it.

The second body - the one given at the resurrection is "eternal made in the heavens" 2Cor 5:1-2.

this is what timothy believes:

"The word for soul in greek and hebrew refers to the person. When the person dies, his "soul" dies. When the person is resurrected, his "soul" is resurrected. There is not a separate part of a person called a "soul" that floats off to heaven or hell when the person dies. That's Spiritism, not Christianity."

 

[Timothew]

this is what timothy believes:

"The word for soul in greek and hebrew refers to the person. When the person dies, his "soul" dies. When the person is resurrected, his "soul" is resurrected. There is not a separate part of a person called a "soul" that floats off to heaven or hell when the person dies. That's Spiritism, not Christianity."

I believe what the bible says.

If you can find a verse in the bible that says "a person's soul floats off to heaven when they die" I would love to see it.

 

[Timothew]

this is what timothy believes:

This is what gradyll believes:
"The soul is so light and free that it doesn't require a resurrection because it's not dead. The soul doesn't die even after an eternity of dying."

 

[Timothew]

If it is the second death (and it is) then they are dead. They are not living in torment. You HAVE to read the Book of Revelation as the Book of Revelation and you HAVE to read it in the light of ALL of the rest of Scripture. I will not take one verse out of context from the BOR and use it to discredit all of the rest of scripture. You found one verse that seems to support your POV. Congratulations.

So that means that either Moses knew that breaking the law would result in eternal torment in hell and he kept it a secret OR He didn't know that breaking the law would result in eternal torment in hell, which means that God kept it a secret from Moses. Which of these two matches YOUR belief?

I would like to have an answer to this question from dollarsbill or gradyll.
Was Moses in error about hell or was he hiding the truth about hell when he gave the law? If there really is a hell of eternal torture, it must be one of these things, because Moses never said a word about it.