Let's Talk About Hell (6)

[dollarsbill]

Oops! John 3:16 was the fifth biblical proof of Conditional Immortality.

I accidentally skipped the 4th Proof, so here it is:
Luke 13:3

I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
​

Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."

Here is Jesus plainly saying that those who do not repent will perish. This is what I'm saying too. You see, the reason that I am not an eternal tormentalist is that I follow Jesus Christ and He is not an eternal tormentalist. This is a powerful verse because Jesus is saying the same words that would get me banned from CF if I posted them in the "General Theology" Forum. What Would Jesus Do? Probably get banned from CF!

That is clearly talking about physical death in this life. You do try though.

 

[Timothew]

That is clearly talking about physical death in this life. You do try though.

Well, okay if you say so. But it clearly doesn't say "physical death in this life." And Jesus said what would happen if the people didn't repent, and what he said WASN'T "you will burn alive forever in hell after you die."
But somehow, that's what most people think happens to those who don't repent.

I want to thank you for taking the time to go through these proofs, one by one.

John 3:36 helps clarify John 3:16. Eternal life and eternal punishment in the same verse.

Only if you assume that God's wrath results in eternal torture in hell. We can't assume that, because that is the question we are discussing. I believe God's wrath results in death. The bible asks "Who can withstand the wrath of God?" Obviously, nobody can. The wrath of God consumes them, they are no more.

 

[Timothew]

Here is the sixth proof of conditional immortality:

John 5:24, Jesus said

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
​

He has passed from death into life, eternal life. Jesus did not say 'Whoever believes has passed from eternal life being tortured in hell to eternal life with no torture'.

Here the penalty and reward are plainly laid out. He tells who gets eternal life. It isn't EVERYONE, some in heaven, some in hell. It is those who hear his words and believe God, who sent him. Whoever receives eternal life passes from death into life. This is just what I've been saying for so long. Those who do not hear and believe do not pass from death into life. They remain in death.

Notice that the proofs are really stacking up. Any one of these should be enough to prove that there is eternal life in Jesus Christ and nowhere else. But so far, I have given you 6 separate proofs showing this. And there are about 40 to go.

 

[dollarsbill]

Well, okay if you say so. But it clearly doesn't say "physical death in this life."

It clearly does.

Luke 13:1-5 (NASB)
1 Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate? 3 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. 4 "Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem? 5 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

And Jesus said what would happen if the people didn't repent, and what he said WASN'T "you will burn alive forever in hell after you die."
But somehow, that's what most people think happens to those who don't repent.

Yes He did.

Mark 9:42-48 (NASB)
42 "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea. 43 "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, 44 [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] 45 "If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell, 46 [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] 47 "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, 48 where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.

Only if you assume that God's wrath results in eternal torture in hell. We can't assume that, because that is the question we are discussing. I believe God's wrath results in death. The bible asks "Who can withstand the wrath of God?" Obviously, nobody can. The wrath of God consumes them, they are no more.

Now you're giving YOUR opinion.

 

[dollarsbill]

Here is the sixth proof of conditional immortality:

John 5:24, Jesus said

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
​

He has passed from death into life, eternal life. Jesus did not say 'Whoever believes has passed from eternal life being tortured in hell to eternal life with no torture'.

Here the penalty and reward are plainly laid out. He tells who gets eternal life. It isn't EVERYONE, some in heaven, some in hell. It is those who hear his words and believe God, who sent him. Whoever receives eternal life passes from death into life. This is just what I've been saying for so long. Those who do not hear and believe do not pass from death into life. They remain in death.

Notice that the proofs are really stacking up. Any one of these should be enough to prove that there is eternal life in Jesus Christ and nowhere else. But so far, I have given you 6 separate proofs showing this. And there are about 40 to go.

All this is consistent with eternal punishment. This only proves what you are implying if you TOTALLY ignore other perfectly clear warnings in the NT. Luke 16, Rev 14 and 20.

 

[Timothew]

It clearly does.

Luke 13:1-5 (NASB)
1 Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate? 3 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. 4 "Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem? 5 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

Yes He did.

Mark 9:42-48 (NASB)
42 "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea. 43 "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, 44 [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] 45 "If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell, 46 [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] 47 "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, 48 where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.

Now you're giving YOUR opinion.

Yes, And you are giving yours. Jesus said the Galileans perished, and they did, and that is what will happen to those who do not repent. I know that your opinion is that something else will happen, but that's not what Jesus said.

And Jesus was not talking about eternal living torture in Mark 9. He was quoting the last chapter of Isaiah, where clearly the fire is consuming DEAD bodies and the worms were eating dead flesh. If that's the hell you are talking about, I agree with you. A hell of dead people who are not alive and conscious and being tortured.

 

[Timothew]

All this is consistent with eternal punishment. This only proves what you are implying if you TOTALLY ignore other perfectly clear warnings in the NT. Luke 16, Rev 14 and 20.

And here we are back to your old three passages. I've already told you why I don't accept the parable of Lazarus as proof of eternal torment in hell, and why Rev 14:10-11 and Rev 20:10 don't show eternal conscious torment in hell. But in trying to refute John 5:24 you completely ignored John 5:24. You said that you were willing to go through these verses one by one, but you keep going off to different verses.

 

[Timothew]

Here is the 7th proof of conditional immortality, that those who are without Christ will die in their sins and not be eternally tortured for their sins.

John 8:21

Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
​

Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.

If they were to be tortured alive for their sins after they died, why didn't Jesus tell them about it? Why did he say they would die in their sins if it's true that they will never die in their sins but be kept alive in hell forever burning?

 

[dollarsbill]

Yes, And you are giving yours.

So refute. You cannot.

Jesus said the Galileans perished, and they did, and that is what will happen to those who do not repent.

It is referring to their physical deaths.

I know that your opinion is that something else will happen, but that's not what Jesus said.

See above.

And Jesus was not talking about eternal living torture in Mark 9. He was quoting the last chapter of Isaiah, where clearly the fire is consuming DEAD bodies and the worms were eating dead flesh. If that's the hell you are talking about, I agree with you. A hell of dead people who are not alive and conscious and being tortured.

It is perfectly clear and in agreement with Luke 16 which is clearly LITERAL.

 

[Timothew]

So refute. You cannot.

It is referring to their physical deaths.

See above.

It is perfectly clear and in agreement with Luke 16 which is clearly LITERAL.

So you say, but I have given you 7 clear proofs that the wicked perish, which you want to ignore so you can go back to your misunderstanding of Luke 16.

 

[dollarsbill]

So you say, but I have given you 7 clear proofs that the wicked perish, which you want to ignore so you can go back to your misunderstanding of Luke 16.

I agree, they do perish physically in this life.

 

[he-man]

I agree, they do perish physically in this life.

welche Strafe leiden werden, ewiges Verderben vom Angesicht des Herrn und von der Herrlichkeit seiner Stärke,
What penalty will suffer, everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength,
2 Thessalonicher 1:9 (Elberfelder 1905 (German))

9 who shall pay the penalty [of] everlasting destruction from [the] presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,
2 Thessalonians 1:9 (The Darby Translation)

Who (oitine). Qualitative use, such as. Vanishing in papyri though surviving in Paul ( 1 Corinthians 3:17 ; Romans 1:25 ; Galatians 4:26 ; Philippians 4:3 ). Shall suffer punishment (dikhn tisousin). Future active of old verb tinw, to pay penalty (dikhn, right, justice), here only in N.T., but apotinw once also to repay Philemon 1:19 . In the papyri dikh is used for a case or process in law. This is the regular phrase in classic writers for paying the penalty. Eternal destruction (oleqron aiwnion). Accusative case in apposition with dikhn (penalty). This phrase does not appear elsewhere in the N.T., but is in IV Macc. 10:15 ton aiwnion tou turannou oleqron the eternal destruction of the tyrant (Antiochus Epiphanes).


Death, eternal


The necessary consequence of sin
Romans 6:16 Romans 6:21 ; 8:13 ; James 1:15


The wages of sin
Romans 6:23


The portion of the wicked
Matthew 25:41 Matthew 25:46 ; Romans 1:32


The way to, described
Psalms 9:17 ; Matthew 7:13


Self-righteousness leads to
Proverbs 14:12


God alone can inflict
Matthew 10:28 ; James 4:12


IS DESCRIBED AS
Banishment from God
2 Thessalonians 1:9
Outer darkness
Matthew 25:30
A mist of darkness for ever
2 Peter 2:17
Indignation, wrath, &c
Romans 2:8 Romans 2:9


IS CALLED
Destruction
Romans 9:22 ; 2 Thessalonians 1:9
Perishing
2 Peter 2:12
The wrath to come
1 Thessalonians 1:10
The second death
Revelation 2:11
A resurrection to damnation
John 5:29
A resurrection to shame &c
Daniel 12:2
Damnation of hell
Matthew 23:33
Everlasting penalty
Matthew 25:46


Shall be inflicted by Christ
Matthew 25:31 Matthew 25:41 ; 2 Thessalonians 1:7 2 Thessalonians 1:8


Christ, the only way of escape from
John 3:16 ; 8:51 ; Acts 4:12


Saints shall escape
Revelation 2:11 ; 20:6


Strive to preserve others from
James 5:20


Illustrated
Luke 16:23-26
Torrey, R.A., Reverand. "Entry for 'Death, eternal'". "The New Topical Text Book"

 

[createdtoworship]

But I said that John 3:16 presents only two possibilities, and it does. Perhaps I should have said that John 3:16 presents two outcomes resulting from one choice.

Outcome #1: Believe in the Son of God, do not perish but have eternal life.
Outcome #2: Disbelieve in the Son of God, perish and do not have eternal life.

but how do you know that the perishing means they do not cease to exist?

third possibility.

 

[dollarsbill]

everlasting[/B] destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength,[/B]
2 Thessalonians 1:9 (The Darby Translation)[/B]

Who (oitine). Qualitative use, such as. Vanishing in papyri though surviving in Paul ( 1 Corinthians 3:17 ; Romans 1:25 ; Galatians 4:26 ; Philippians 4:3 ). Shall suffer punishment (dikhn tisousin). Future active of old verb tinw, to pay penalty (dikhn, right, justice), here only in N.T., but apotinw once also to repay Philemon 1:19 . In the papyri dikh is used for a case or process in law. This is the regular phrase in classic writers for paying the penalty. Eternal destruction (oleqron aiwnion). Accusative case in apposition with dikhn (penalty). This phrase does not appear elsewhere in the N.T., but is in IV Macc. 10:15 ton aiwnion tou turannou oleqron the eternal destruction of the tyrant (Antiochus Epiphanes).


Death, eternal


The necessary consequence of sin
Romans 6:16 Romans 6:21 ; 8:13 ; James 1:15


The wages of sin
Romans 6:23


The portion of the wicked
Matthew 25:41 Matthew 25:46 ; Romans 1:32


The way to, described
Psalms 9:17 ; Matthew 7:13


Self-righteousness leads to
Proverbs 14:12


God alone can inflict
Matthew 10:28 ; James 4:12


IS DESCRIBED AS
Banishment from God
2 Thessalonians 1:9
Outer darkness
Matthew 25:30
A mist of darkness for ever
2 Peter 2:17
Indignation, wrath, &c
Romans 2:8 Romans 2:9


IS CALLED
Destruction
Romans 9:22 ; 2 Thessalonians 1:9
Perishing
2 Peter 2:12
The wrath to come
1 Thessalonians 1:10
The second death
Revelation 2:11
A resurrection to damnation
John 5:29
A resurrection to shame &c
Daniel 12:2
Damnation of hell
Matthew 23:33
Everlasting penalty
Matthew 25:46


Shall be inflicted by Christ
Matthew 25:31 Matthew 25:41 ; 2 Thessalonians 1:7 2 Thessalonians 1:8


Christ, the only way of escape from
John 3:16 ; 8:51 ; Acts 4:12


Saints shall escape
Revelation 2:11 ; 20:6


Strive to preserve others from
James 5:20


Illustrated
Luke 16:23-26
Torrey, R.A., Reverand. "Entry for 'Death, eternal'". "The New Topical Text Book"

Eternal and everlasting indeed!

 

[dollarsbill]

Yes, And you are giving yours. Jesus said the Galileans perished, and they did,
Yeah, physically.

and that is what will happen to those who do not repent. I know that your opinion is that something else will happen, but that's not what Jesus said.

BIG difference between perishing physically in this life and perishing ETERNALLY in the next.

And Jesus was not talking about eternal living torture in Mark 9. He was quoting the last chapter of Isaiah, where clearly the fire is consuming DEAD bodies and the worms were eating dead flesh. If that's the hell you are talking about, I agree with you. A hell of dead people who are not alive and conscious and being tortured.

Read it again.

Mark 9:43 (NASB)
43 "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,

 

[Timothew]

but how do you know that the perishing means they cease to exist?

third possibility.

I agree, they do perish physically in this life.

Okay, so since language has meaning and words mean things, look at someone who has perished. They are not conscious. They are not burning or being tortured. God describes the fate of those who reject him by using the words for death. They are dead and not alive. I'll give you that death does not mean cease to exist. The dead person still exists, as a dead person. They are not alive though. They are not conscious. They are not being tortured. They have no thoughts. That is the meaning of death.

into the unquenchable fire,

This is additional proof for annihilationism, not eternal tormentalism. Everything that is put into unquenchable fire is consumed by it. I put a woodtick into a fire and it perished there. Couple that with Isaiah's statement that the fire burns up dead corpses and you see the meaning.

 

[Timothew]

Here is the 7th proof of conditional immortality, that those who are without Christ will die in their sins and not be eternally tortured for their sins.

John 8:21

Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
​

Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.

If they were to be tortured alive for their sins after they died, why didn't Jesus tell them about it? Why did he say they would die in their sins if it's true that they will never die in their sins but be kept alive in hell forever burning?

Dollarsbill, you haven't refuted John 8:21.
Did you want to comment on that verse or should I just go on to the next proof of conditional immortality/refute of tormentalism?

 

[he-man]

BIG difference between perishing physically in this life and perishing ETERNALLY in the next.Read it again. Mark 9:43 (NASB) 43 "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,

If you where once in a condition to stand in God's presence, then "fell" away, you would not be able to stand any longer; you would be "out from standing,"cowering and trying to hide from His presence.

The history of the English word "hell" is also revealing. The Old English word from which hell is derived is "helan", which means to hide or cover, and is a verb. So at one time the English church understood that to be judged a sinner meant one would cower and want to hide in fear when in God's presence

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to [G5020 ταρταρόω] and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
The word Tartarus is also a proper noun, that is a name of a place, and accordingly should not be changed into a different word, and certainly not the same word that used for Hades and Gehennah.

Tartarus originally came from Greek mythology and popular folk tales. It is the name of a prison in Hades that Zeus, after triumphing over the Titans, placed them, bound in chains to hold them for future punishment for crimes against humans.

It was metaphorically seen as the place where justice was metered out in the spirit world, and this metaphor often found it's way into Jewish apocryphal writings about the end times. Saint Peter borrows this term and uses it in exactly the same way as it was used in popular contemporary writings by both Greeks and Jews; it is a place where "sinning angels" are bound and imprisoned, awaiting a future punishment.

They are bound by God to prevent them from doing further harm, and they are judged for crimes against humanity. This image is seen in the ancient icon of the Resurrection, metaphorically depicted are "dark" angels, or demons, being bound in chains under the feet of the resurrected Christ, who broke the bonds of death and rendered powerless the "sinning angels".

Remember from 2 Thessalonians, where Saint Paul writes that the power of the presence of Christ made the "lawless One" powerless, and gave comfort to the Christians, which is exactly the same idea that Saint Peter is writing about in 2 Peter 2:4 through 9.

Also totally absent from the scriptures is any hint that demons are tormenting sinners. This again comes from Dante's Inferno and other pagan concepts, not from the Bible. Because any "sinning angels" in the presence of God, are also in torment, and their power is made ineffective.

The cause of the pain is the poor choices that we make, not God. If one thinks of these two different "places" as conditions that we choose to be in, rather than "compartments" God puts us in, it would be more accurate.

And it will certainly be "paradise" to finally experience His Divine Love up close and in person for those who seek it. It is all in the perception.
Heaven and Hell in the Afterlife

 

[dollarsbill]

The cause of the pain will be the fire mentioned several times in the NT. Why is it so hard to believe that God will burn humans forever when the Bible CLEARLY shows that He burns humans alive?

Matthew 13:40-42 (NASB)
40 "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. 41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Timothew]

The cause of the pain will be the fire mentioned several times in the NT. Why is it so hard to believe that God will burn humans forever when the Bible CLEARLY shows that He burns humans alive?

Matthew 13:40-42 (NASB)
40 "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. 41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This clearly doesn't say that God burns people alive forever. Why is THAT so hard to believe?

And you still haven't refuted John 8:21