Let's Talk About Hell (4)

[WillieH]

sophrosyne is right we have derailed from Hell long enough, here is something to enlighten us:

"2 KINGS 14:29—Are the dead asleep or conscious?
PROBLEM: As in this passage, the Bible often speaks of death as the time when one “sleeps with his fathers” (e.g., 1 Kings 2:10; 11:21, 43; 14:20, kjv). Jesus said, “Lazarus sleeps” (John 11:11) when he was “dead” (John 11:14). Paul speaks of believers who have “fallen asleep” in the Lord (1 Thes. 4:13; cf. 1 Cor. 15:51). Yet, in other places, the Bible speaks of persons being conscious in the presence of God after they die (cf. 2 Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:23; Rev. 6:9).

SOLUTION: The first set of verses refers to the body, and the second set to the soul. “Sleep” is an appropriate figure of speech for the death of the body since death is only temporary, awaiting the resurrection when the body will be awakened from its sleep. Further, both sleep and death have the same posture, lying down.
The Bible is very clear about the fact that the believer’s soul (spirit) survives death (Luke 12:4), is consciously present with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8) in a better place (Phil. 1:23) where other souls are talking (Matt. 17:3) and even praying (Rev. 6:9–10). Likewise, the unbeliever’s soul is in a place of conscious torment (Matt. 25:41; Luke 16:22–26; Rev. 19:20–20:15).

PSALM 37:9, 34—When the wicked are cut off, are they annihilated?
PROBLEM: The psalmist affirms that “evildoers shall be cut off.” Elsewhere (Ps. 73:27; Prov. 21:28), it says they will perish (see comments on 2 Thes. 1:9). But, does being cut off forever mean they will be annihilated?
SOLUTION: Being “cut off” does not mean to be annihilated. If it did, then the Messiah would have been annihilated when He died, since the same word (karath) is used of the death of the Messiah (in Dan. 9:26). But, we know that Christ was not annihilated, but lives on forever after His death (cf. Rev. 1:18; also see comments on 2 Thes. 1:9).

ECCLESIASTES 3:19—Is man’s fate the same as that of animals?
PROBLEM: Solomon seems to claim here that there is no difference between the death of humans and animals. “One thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other.” Yet Solomon asserts later that, unlike animals, when a human dies, “the spirit will return to God who gave it” (Ecc. 12:7). How can this conflict be explained?
SOLUTION: There are both similarities and differences between the death of animals and humans. In both cases, their bodies die and return to dust. Likewise, their death is certain, and both are powerless to prevent it. In these respects, the physical phenomena are the same for both humans and animals.
On the other hand, humans have immortal souls (spirits), and animals do not (Ecc. 12:7; cf. 3:21). Of no beasts does the Bible say, “to be absent from the body … [is] to be present with the Lord” (2 Cor. 5:8). Likewise, nowhere does the Bible speak of the resurrection of animals, as it does of all human beings (cf. John 5:28–29; Rev. 20:4–6). So there is a big difference in the spiritual realm between the death of humans and animals.

ECCLESIASTES 3:20–21—If there is life after death, why does Solomon declare that man has no advantage over the beasts?
PROBLEM: The Bible teaches that the soul survives death (Phil. 1:23; 2 Cor. 5:8; Rev. 6:9). But, Ecclesiastes insists that “all go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust” (v. 20). Hence, “man has no advantage over beasts, for all is vanity” (3:19).
SOLUTION: The reference here is to the human body, not to the soul. Both men and beast die and their bodies return to dust. However, humans are different in that their soul “goes upward” (v. 21). In fact, Solomon speaks of “eternity” in the human heart (Ecc. 3:11) and of its immortality when he declares that at death “man goes to his eternal home” (12:5). He also emphasized that we should fear God because there is a day when “God will bring you into judgment” after this life (11:9). So Ecclesiastes is not denying life after death; it is warning about the futility of living only for this life “under the sun” (cf. 1:3, 13; 2:18). (See prior comments under 3:19.)

ECCLESIASTES 9:5—Do the dead remember anything?
PROBLEM: Taken at face value, Solomon seems to be claiming that the dead have no more knowledge of anything. He wrote here, “the dead know nothing.” Likewise, the psalmist said, “in death there is no remembrance” (Ps. 6:5). But, this seems to contradict the many passages that speak of souls being conscious after death (e.g., 2 Sam. 12:23; 2 Cor. 5:8; Rev. 6:9).
SOLUTION: The Bible teaches that the soul survives death in a conscious state of knowledge (see comments on 2 Kings 14:29). The passages which say there is no knowledge or remembrance after death are speaking of no memory in this world, not of no memory of this world. Solomon clearly qualified his comment by saying it was “in the grave” (Ecc. 9:10) that there was “no remembrance.” He affirmed also that the dead do not know what is going on “under the sun” (9:6). But while they do not know what is happening on earth, they certainly do know what is going on in heaven (cf. Rev. 6:9). In short, these texts refer simply to man in relation to this present life—they say nothing about the life to come immediately after this one.

ISAIAH 14:12—Who is Lucifer in this verse?
PROBLEM: Many commentators consider this passage to be a reference to Satan, because the name “Lucifer” is used. However, in Isaiah 14:4 this entire poetic section stretching from 14:4 through 14:27 is a proverb against the king of Babylon. How can this be a reference to Satan when it is against the king of Babylon?
SOLUTION: This passage is a literal reference to the king of Babylon, but its significance encompasses the ultimate defeat and fall of Satan. There have been many different views as to the identity of this king of Babylon. Some propose that this is a reference to Sennacherib, a fierce enemy of God’s people. Others see the poetic figure of personification in which the kingdom of Babylon as a whole is referred to in personal terms. The Hebrew word translated in the nkjv as “Lucifer” literally means “shining one.” Verse 12 could be translated “How you are fallen from heaven, O shining one, son of the morning.” Because the king of Babylon desired to set himself up as God, his fall would be as from heaven.
The parallels between this passage and such NT passages as Luke 10:18 and Revelation 20:2 indicate that this passage may have a broader application. The prophecy was given for those who lived in Isaiah’s day, and it had immediate significance for them. God was promising them that their enemy, the king of Babylon and the evil empire itself, would ultimately be torn down. Yet, the prophecy may have significance for us as a picture of the ultimate demise of the evil ruler of this world whom God will ultimately destroy (Rev. 20:10).

EZEKIEL 28:1—Who is the prince of Tyre?
PROBLEM: Many conservative scholars equate the prince of Tyre with Satan. However, such statements as “you are a man, and not a god” (28:2) indicate that this is a reference to a human prince, not to Satan. Who is the prince of Tyre?
SOLUTION: Evangelical scholars hold differing positions concerning the identity of the prince of Tyre. Some hold that the language in chapter 28 is highly poetic with figurative expressions that are designed to emphasize the arrogance of the prince of Tyre. These commentators understand this to be a human prince, although there is difference of opinion about exactly who this man would be. Some identify this prince as Ethbaal III who ruled from about 591 to about 572 b.c. Others identify him as Ithobal II, who may have been the same person under a different name. Some commentators propose that the language cannot be applied to any specific person, but is a personification of the city itself. The “king” serves as a symbol of the government and the people as a whole.
Other commentators propose that verses 1–11 refer to the human prince, but that verses 11–19 refer to Satan. Those who advocate this view point to the change of reference from “the prince (nagid) of Tyre” in verse 2, to “the king (melek) of Tyre” in verse 12. This change of reference from prince to king, coupled with such statements as “you were in Eden” (v. 13), “you were the anointed cherub” (v. 14), and “you were perfect in your ways from the day you were created” (v. 15) may indicate that this section is about Satan. To the contrary, others simply understand these phrases as hyperbolic (literary exaggeration) references to the human prince and king.
All conservative commentators agree, however, that chapter 28 is a prophecy against the city of Tyre and its ruler, whoever that might be. This ruler exalted himself above God and deserved the judgment that God would bring upon him. Although the specific identity of the prince and king of Tyre is a debated issue, the application of this passage extends to all those who exalt themselves in pride and arrogance against God, whether they be kings, demons, or common people. And, of course, Satan himself is the ultimate example of all such proud creatures (cf. 1 Tim. 3:6).

2 THESSALONIANS 1:9—Will the wicked be annihilated or suffer conscious punishment forever?
PROBLEM: In some passages of Scripture, like this one, it speaks of the wicked being “destroyed” by God, suffering “the second death” (Rev. 20:14), or going to “perdition” (2 Peter 3:7). Yet in other places, it speaks of them suffering conscious torment (e.g., Luke 16:22–28). Will unsaved persons be annihilated, or will they consciously suffer forever?
SOLUTION: “Destruction” does not mean annihilation here, otherwise it would not be “everlasting” destruction. Annihilation only takes an instant, and it is over. If someone undergoes everlasting destruction, then they have to have everlasting existence.
Furthermore, “death” does not mean annihilation, but separation. Adam and Eve died spiritually the moment they sinned, yet they still existed and could hear God’s voice (Gen. 2:17; cf. 3:10). Likewise, before one is saved, he is “dead in trespasses and sins” (Eph. 2:1), and yet he is still in God’s image (Gen. 1:27; cf. 9:6; James 3:9) and is called on to believe (Acts 16:31) and to repent (Acts 17:30) and be saved.
Likewise, when the wicked are said to go into “perdition” (2 Peter 3:7), and Judas is called the “son of perdition” (John 17:12), it does not mean they will be annihilated. The word “perdition” (apōleia) simply means to perish or to come to ruin. But junk cars have perished in the sense of having been ruined. But they are still cars, ruined as they may be, and they are still in the junk yard. In this connection, Jesus spoke of hell as a junk yard or dump where the fire would not cease and where a person’s resurrected body would not be consumed (see comments on Mark 9:48).
Finally, there are several lines of evidence that support the everlasting consciousness of the lost. First, the rich man who died and went to hell was in conscious torment (Luke 16:22–28), and there is absolutely no indication in the text that it was ever going to cease.
Second, Jesus spoke repeatedly of the people in hell as “weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matt. 8:12; 22:13; 24:51; 25:30), which indicates they were conscious.
Third, hell is said to be of the same duration as heaven, namely, “everlasting” (Matt. 25:41).
Fourth, the fact that their punishment is everlasting indicates that they too must be everlasting. One cannot suffer punishment, unless a person exists to be punished (2 Thes. 1:9).
Fifth, the beast and the false prophet were thrown “alive” into the lake of fire at the beginning of the 1,000 years (Rev. 19:20), and they were still there, conscious and alive, after the 1,000 years (Rev. 20:10).
Sixth, the Scriptures affirm that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet “will be tormented day and night forever and ever” (Rev. 20:10). But there is no way to experience torment forever and ever without being conscious for ever and ever.
Seventh, Jesus repeatedly referred to hell as a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:48), where the very bodies of the wicked will never die (cf. Luke 12:4–5). But it would make no sense to have everlasting flames and bodies without any souls in them to experience the torment.
Eighth, the same word used to describe the wicked perishing in the OT (abad) is used to describe the righteous perishing (see Isa. 57:1; Micah 7:2). The same word is used to describe things that are merely lost, but then later found (Deut. 22:3), which proves that “lost” does not here mean go out of existence. So, if perish means to annihilate, then the saved would have to be annihilated too. But we know they are not.
Ninth, it would be contrary to the created nature of human beings to annihilate them, since they are made in God’s image and likeness, which is everlasting (Gen. 1:27). For God to annihilate His image in man would be to attack the reflection of Himself.
Tenth, annihilation would be demeaning both to the love of God and to the nature of human beings as free moral creatures. It would be as if God said to them, “I will allow you to be free only if you do what I say! If you don’t, then I will snuff out your very freedom and existence!” This would be like a father telling his son he wanted him to be a doctor, and, when he chose instead to be a park ranger, the father shot him! Eternal suffering is an eternal testimony to the freedom and dignity of humans, even unrepentant humans."

from:
Geisler, Norman L. ; Howe, Thomas A.: When Critics Ask : A Popular Handbook on Bible Difficulties. Wheaton, Ill. : Victor Books, 1992, S. 493

Norman Geisler has a B.A, M.A., Th.B., and Ph.D (in philosophy). He has taught at some of the top Seminaries in the United States, including Trinity Evangelical and Dallas Seminary and currently he is Distinguished Professor of Apologetics at Veritas Evangelical Seminary in Murrieta, CA (www.VeritasSeminary.com).

authored over 70 books and hundreds of articles here:

Dr. Norman Geisler

Who cares about all this copied baloney?

PEACE...


...willieH

 

[WillieH]

your right it's like casting pearls before swine.

Problem is, HERM has no "pearls" to cast...


PEACE...


...willlieH

 

[WillieH]

I used to believe that hell was a fiery place of everlasting torment. When I was a kid that is, and before I got a concordance and before I learned how to read the Bible.
It is just a matter of maturity.

...but most "christians" are unwilling to decicate themselves to PERSONAL research so, Concordances are become irrelevant to them, and their EFFORTLESS laziness remains as their "belief"...


PEACE...


...willieH

 

[WillieH]

parables were only spoken to the multitude not to the disciples. The disciples were given the interpretations to the parables, thus nullifying their effect to hide truth. Hear the word of God concerning this matter...


Matthew 13:10-11 NKJV

10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”
11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.

Secondly, for us as disciples we must understand the interpretations of scripture, you seem a little fuzzy on this matter so here is a little clip on hermeneutics:

D.L. Cooper gives a reasonable definition of normal interpretation in his Golden Rule of Interpretation:

When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense, therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.—The Golden Rule of Interpretation, D.L. Cooper3

Those who are committed to a normal reading of Scripture offer at least three reasons: First, the obvious purpose of language is to enable effective communication between intelligent beings. Words have meaning and in their normal usage are intended to be understood. . . . God is the originator of language. When He spoke audibly to man, He expected man to understand Him and respond accordingly. Likewise, when God speaks to man through the inspired writings of His apostles and prophets, He expects man to understand and respond accordingly. 6

Sources of research:
3 J. Dwight Pentecost, Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House, 1958), 44.
6 Mal Couch, Classical Evangelical Hermeneutics (Grand Rapids, MI: Kregel Publications), 36-37.

clip from BibleStudyTools.com on Hermeneutics

The Art and Science of Interpretation

This guy doesn't KNOW anything substancial about the WORD himself, ...he just continually copies the "words" of another (which is also BLIND), then fools himself that he "sees"... and then offers that tainted and UNRESEARCHED blasphemy to the others which are as is he, ...TOO LAZY to study and SEEK... for themselves...

Only YOU can decide to BE a student -- 2 Tim 2:15 -- of the WORD, and to FAITHFULLY PURSUE and RESEARCH the WORD with DILIGENCE and with the TOTALITY of YOUR HEART -- Jer 29:13 -- or like gradyll, just DUST your Bible off once a day, ...COPY someone else's conclusions, and in that FOLLY, ...NAME yourself a "student" and follower of the WORD...

Either you ARE a STUDENT, or you ARE NOT... you must choose!

He COPIES anothers "misled words", and then offers to OTHERS too
SLOTHFUL to study, to embrace his folly... thereby following him into the ditch.

Such a SHAME, which WILL come forth upon the MANY -- 2 Tim 2:15 -- Matt 7:22-23 -- Rev 3:18

If you are wise, you will BEWARE of this man, and others which COPY, and then expect you to embrace that slothful "effort"...

Who is DEVOID of a message of VICTORY which is called GOOD NEWS... instead rather, THREATENS you with THE report of the DEFEAT of the mission of CHRIST, -- Who came to SAVE the WORLD -- John 1:29 -- 1 John 4:14 ...with HELL, ...in his desire that you will follow HIM, to his own forthcoming SHAMEFUL destiny!

Praying for you all...


PEACE...


...willieH

 

[WillieH]

I just pray those that don't believe in an everlasting Hell don't end up there because they did not fear God's wrath.

Keep on "believing" in the imaginary... this is what YOU will get: Matt 7:22-23

One cannot "end up" somewhere that does NOT EXIST...

What we are to "BELIEVE IN" is the VICTORY of CHRIST -- Col 1:20 -- 1 Tim 2:6 -- 2 Cor 5:19 -- Rom 5:18-20 -- who ALONE shall SAVE us (apart from ANYTHING we might or might NOT ..."DO")... not a bunch of "CROSS "DEFEATING" BLASPHEMY, which has been MANIFEST of TRADITIONALISTS, ...called "HELL"...


PEACE...


...willieH

 

[createdtoworship]

Who cares about all this copied baloney?

PEACE...


...willieH

you do, because you keep responding to it with rude insults and absolutely no debate premises.

 

[createdtoworship]

This guy doesn't KNOW anything substancial about the WORD himself, ...he just continually copies the "words" of another (which is also BLIND), then fools himself that he "sees"... and then offers that tainted and UNRESEARCHED blasphemy to the others which are as is he, ...TOO LAZY to study and SEEK... for themselves...

Only YOU can decide to BE a student -- 2 Tim 2:15 -- of the WORD, and to FAITHFULLY PURSUE and RESEARCH the WORD with DILIGENCE and with the TOTALITY of YOUR HEART -- Jer 29:13 -- or like gradyll, just DUST your Bible off once a day, ...COPY someone else's conclusions, and in that FOLLY, ...NAME yourself a "student" and follower of the WORD...

Either you ARE a STUDENT, or you ARE NOT... you must choose!

He COPIES anothers "misled words", and then offers to OTHERS too
SLOTHFUL to study, to embrace his folly... thereby following him into the ditch.

Such a SHAME, which WILL come forth upon the MANY -- 2 Tim 2:15 -- Matt 7:22-23 -- Rev 3:18

If you are wise, you will BEWARE of this man, and others which COPY, and then expect you to embrace that slothful "effort"...

Who is DEVOID of a message of VICTORY which is called GOOD NEWS... instead rather, THREATENS you with THE report of the DEFEAT of the mission of CHRIST, -- Who came to SAVE the WORLD -- John 1:29 -- 1 John 4:14 ...with HELL, ...in his desire that you will follow HIM, to his own forthcoming SHAMEFUL destiny!

Praying for you all...


PEACE...


...willieH

You do not pose any threat to what they have said because you offer no argument in your favor, just insults. I see you have given up on debate, this is good. More treasure in heaven for us that still debate.

 

[WillieH]

You do not pose any threat to what they have said because you offer no argument in your favor, just insults. I see you have given up on debate, this is good. More treasure in heaven for us that still debate.

More IMAGINARY writing by HERM... No one has "insulted" him, other than posed questions he cannot answer... guess to a empty mind, that could be considered an "insult"...

Because I have posed questions and points that he is UNABLE to address, he therefore decieves himself that he has "won" a debate! Please... ...from a guy that has no ability other than to COPY from internet sites, that which he "believes"...

Furthermore, HERM does not even KNOW the meaning of DEBATE, and has no knowledge to participate in one anyway.

PEACE...


...willieH

 

[WillieH]

you do, because you keep responding to it with rude insults and absolutely no debate premises.

The guy cannot even recognize a "response", because he does not know how to create one himself...


PEACE...


...willieH

 

[WillieH]

willieH: Hello to anyone who really wishes to "LEARN the TRUTH" about "HELL"...

I will be beginning a series of posts which deal with this BLASPHEMOUS and UNSCRIPTURAL teaching...

Anyone is welcome to respond to the points I will be making, if one is able...

I will not reply to IDIOCY... or IGNORANCE --->

But to those who pose serious heart-felt and thought out questions... I will do my best to give the current view I hold on any given point...

I wish THE PEACE of YHVH unto all

who seek to KNOW the TRUTH... of the LOVE of YHVH God and His Son JESUS CHRIST... which are PERFECT in all their ways, INTENTS and DESIRES... which CANNOT in ANY WAY, be deterred by SINFUL beings which are IMPERFECT... (because TRADITION which is that which is WORSHIPPED by HELL believers instead of the TRUTH)...

If you seek to be released by the CHAINS of LIES which TRADITIONALISTS hold you hostage, read this series... and I look forward to ANY INTELLIGENT replies...

Those who WORSHIP TRADITION, are left with the TOMBSTONE it represents...


PEACE...


...willieH

 

[Timothew]

funny, I believe maturity is taking the word of God literally and at face value. Thats the first line of hermeneutical study. If God wanted to speak in riddles He could have, but He didn't.

Amen Brother! Hear Hear!

The wages of sin is death.

Let's take the word of God literally and at face value. God doesn't speak in riddles.

 

[Timothew]

I just pray those that don't believe in an everlasting Hell don't end up there because they did not fear God's wrath.

I pray those who don't believe that the wages of sin is death don't end up dying in their sins because they don't fear God's wrath.

 

[Timothew]

willieH: Hello to anyone who really wishes to "LEARN the TRUTH" about "HELL"...

I will be beginning a series of posts which deal with this BLASPHEMOUS and UNSCRIPTURAL teaching...

Anyone is welcome to respond to the points I will be making, if one is able...

I will not reply to IDIOCY... or IGNORANCE --->

Great! Where will you be posting this?

 

[createdtoworship]

Amen Brother! Hear Hear!

The wages of sin is death.

Let's take the word of God literally and at face value. God doesn't speak in riddles.

eternal death, meaning that God has power to kill both the soul and body in hell. This is a basic systematic theology developed by using hermeneutics. You should do well to comply.

 

[createdtoworship]

willieH: Hello to anyone who really wishes to "LEARN the TRUTH" about "HELL"...

I will be beginning a series of posts which deal with this BLASPHEMOUS and UNSCRIPTURAL teaching...

Anyone is welcome to respond to the points I will be making, if one is able...

I will not reply to IDIOCY... or IGNORANCE --->

But to those who pose serious heart-felt and thought out questions... I will do my best to give the current view I hold on any given point...

I wish THE PEACE of YHVH unto all

who seek to KNOW the TRUTH... of the LOVE of YHVH God and His Son JESUS CHRIST... which are PERFECT in all their ways, INTENTS and DESIRES... which CANNOT in ANY WAY, be deterred by SINFUL beings which are IMPERFECT... (because TRADITION which is that which is WORSHIPPED by HELL believers instead of the TRUTH)...

If you seek to be released by the CHAINS of LIES which TRADITIONALISTS hold you hostage, read this series... and I look forward to ANY INTELLIGENT replies...

Those who WORSHIP TRADITION, are left with the TOMBSTONE it represents...


PEACE...


...willieH

remember the poster of these articles has created quite a history for himself:


1) satan does not exist (as a literal being)
2) the proton, neutron and electron do not exist (post 670)
3) the speed of light does not exist (thinks it's not proven to be 186,282 mps) post 670
4) we are all in the lake of fire burning right now (the earth) (post 724)
5) the organized church is sinful (every church unworthy of attendance) post 742, 745
6) the "body" of man is literally the "earth" (post 599)
7) the "heart" of man is literally "heaven" (post 599)
8) there is no end of the world (post 599)
9) God IS the the actual universe (which is pantheism) (instead of beyond the universe)Post 356
10) All religions are false including Christianity (post 271)
11) the beast and the devil are symbolic (post 215)
12) All orthodoxy is blasphemy (post 186)
13) man is God (of the offspring and species of God) (post 172, 161)
14) Jesus is not God however (post 183)
15) Mankind has always existed in heaven (post 172, 163)
16) there are no fallen angels, only Holy angels (post 751)
17) pluto never existed (post 759)
18) because God created farting, Jesus would condone fart talk on this christian forum (post 698)
19) belief in the existence of pluto is on par with believing in "Mickey Mouse" (post 759)
Just in case you were wondering about pluto: here is a picture from nasa

20) Belief in the existence of pluto is on par with belief in UFO's (post 798)
21) adam and eve were serpents (post 836)
22) demon possession is not real (post 836)
23) people who are angry and violent are demon possessed (post 836)

 

[Timothew]

eternal death, meaning that God has power to kill both the soul and body in hell. This is a basic systematic theology developed by using hermeneutics. You should do well to comply.

I thought that you wanted to take the word of God literally and at face value. Eternal death means death which is eternal. Death is the absence of life. Death doe not not mean eternal life in torment, no matter which way you turn your hermeneutics. Certainly God has the power to kill both the soul and body. This does not mean that He keeps them alive in hell to torment them.

 

[createdtoworship]

I thought that you wanted to take the word of God literally and at face value. Eternal death means death which is eternal. Death is the absence of life. Death doe not not mean eternal life in torment, no matter which way you turn your hermeneutics. Certainly God has the power to kill both the soul and body. This does not mean that He keeps them alive in hell to torment them.

if the wages of sin is death literally and without any context of other scripture then there is contradiction. For example if the wages of sin is death alone, then none of our sins are paid for because ten out of ten still die regardless of faith in Christ or no faith. How do you explain this?

It is systematically plausible that the wages of sin is death in the lake of fire. Because only the wicked go to the lake of fire.

A certified seminary commentary agrees with me:

"The wages (the Gr. word opsōnia originally meant a soldier’s pay) of sin is death (eternal death here, in contrast with “eternal life” in v. 23b). This death is eternal separation from God in hell, in which unbelievers suffer conscious torment forever (Luke 16:24-25). This is the wages they have earned and deserve because of their sin (cf. Rom. 5:12; 7:13). By contrast, the gift (charisma, “grace-gift&#8221 of God is eternal life (cf. John 3:16, 36)."

Walvoord, John F. ; Zuck, Roy B. ; Dallas Theological Seminary: The Bible Knowledge Commentary : An Exposition of the Scriptures. Wheaton, IL : Victor Books, 1983-c1985, S. 2:465

So the wages of sin is not death as we know death, but eternal death in the lake of fire. Systematic theology demands such an interpretation to prevent above contradictions. Secondly, note the underlined phrase in the golden rule of interpretation below...

When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense, therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.—The Golden Rule of Interpretation, D.L. Cooper3

clip from BibleStudyTools.com on Hermeneutics

The Art and Science of Interpretation

 

[Timothew]

if the wages of sin is death literally and without any context of other scripture then there is contradiction. For example if the wages of sin is death alone, then none of our sins are paid for because ten out of ten still die regardless of faith in Christ or no faith. How do you explain this?

Because ten out of ten are resurrected, and then face the judgment, eternal death or eternal life.

It is systematically plausible that the wages of sin is death in the lake of fire. Because only the wicked go to the lake of fire.

Yes! Exactly, this is what I've been saying. The wicked go to their deaths in the lake of fire which is the second death. I'm glad that you are starting to understand.

A certified seminary commentary agrees with me:

"The wages (the Gr. word opsōnia originally meant a soldier’s pay) of sin is death (eternal death here, in contrast with “eternal life” in v. 23b). This death is eternal separation from God in hell, in which unbelievers suffer conscious torment forever (Luke 16:24-25). This is the wages they have earned and deserve because of their sin (cf. Rom. 5:12; 7:13). By contrast, the gift (charisma, “grace-gift”) of God is eternal life (cf. John 3:16, 36)."

Walvoord, John F. ; Zuck, Roy B. ; Dallas Theological Seminary: The Bible Knowledge Commentary : An Exposition of the Scriptures. Wheaton, IL : Victor Books, 1983-c1985, S. 2:465

So the wages of sin is not death as we know death, but eternal death in the lake of fire. Systematic theology demands such an interpretation to prevent above contradictions. Secondly, note the underlined phrase in the golden rule of interpretation below...

And then you fall right back into the illogical position that death is not death buit life in torment instead.

When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense, therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.—The Golden Rule of Interpretation, D.L. Cooper3

clip from BibleStudyTools.com on Hermeneutics

The Art and Science of Interpretation

The plain sense of death is death, not alive. So I don't know why you post this quote, when I agree and you do not. The wages of sin is death. Take every word at it's ordinary meaning. Unless there are clear bible passages that say "The wages of sin is not death." There aren't any passages that say this.

I know that you are totally committed to the traditional view, and you don't want to give it up, no matter what the bible says. But people are capable of error, and we shouldn't worship people as infallable. The bible does not support eternal torment.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Problem is, HERM has no "pearls" to cast...

As usual you have nothing but taunts, no words of encouragement or uplifting statements.

PEACE...


...willlieH

And you end every post with this emoitcon of apparent call to brotherly love when in fact your posts are entirely divisive. I don't agree with Grady very often, but I notice that I *never* agree with anything you have to say. At least this post didn't end with a totally incongruous hug emoticon, given that WillieH never gives anything even remotely like a verbal hug.

 

[createdtoworship]

Because ten out of ten are resurrected, and then face the judgment, eternal death or eternal life.

but this is not part of Romans 6:23, you too employ systematic theology. I am glad you are starting to turn around.

But yes, eternal torment fits the majority of scripture in a most systematic way.

How do you explain these verses without a contradiction to your view?

Cast to outer darkness with weeping and gnashing of teeth
Matt. 8:12, "but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Those cast into the fire suffer consciously
Matt. 13:41-42, "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” See also Matt. 13:50.

Cast into a tormenting fire
Rev. 14:9-11, "And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."” See also, Rev. 21:8.

Thrown into the lake of Fire
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Hell is a place of eternal fire and punishment

Unquenchable Fire
Matt. 3:12 "And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Fiery Hell
Matt. 5:22, "whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell." See also, Matt. 5:29,30.

Fiery Hell
Matt. 18:8-9, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire. 9 "And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out, and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into the fiery hell."

Eternal Fire
Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.

Eternal Punishment
Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The word "eternal" in both places is "aionios" which means 1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be; 2) without beginning; 3) without end, never to cease, everlasting. The word "punishment" is the word "kolasis" and it means "to punish, with the implication of resulting severe suffering - 'to punish, punishment.'"5

Eternal Fire
Jude 7, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire."

Thrown into the lake of Fire
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Lake of Fire
Rev. 20:15, "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
Luke 16:19-31, Lazarus and the Rich Man

In Luke 16:19-31 is the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Basically, Lazarus is a poor man who suffers during life. The rich man is, of course, rich. They both die. The rich man goes to Hades. Lazarus goes to Abraham's bosom, another term for paradise. In Hades, the rich man lifts up his eyes and sees Lazarus far off. He cries out to Abraham and asks for mercy because he is in agony in flame. Abraham says no. Then the rich man asks if someone from the dead were to rise and go tell his brothers not to come to this terrible place. Abraham teaches him that that will not be done either.

Some say that this is a parable. However, if it is, it is unique because no other parable actually names a person. It isn't a story. It is history. It really happened. But many who believe in no consciousness after death will say it is still a parable. The question is then, if it is a parable what is it teaching? If hell fire is false and if self-awareness after death is also false, then Jesus is using false doctrines to teach a truth. Parables illustrate truth. If it is a parable, what does the consciousness after death symbolize? Also, what does the agony in flame symbolize? Are they not real? Of course they are.
Conclusion

Hell is a real place. It is not mere unconsciousness. It is not temporal. It is eternal torment. Perhaps that is why Jesus spoke more of hell than heaven and spent so much time warning people not to go there. After all, if people just stopped existing, why warn them? If it was temporal, they'd get out in a while. But if it were eternal and conscious, then the warning is strong.

Jesus said, "And if your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 "And if your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into hell," (Matt. 5:29-30).

from CARM.org