Let's Talk About Hell (4)

[createdtoworship]

This is SYMBOLIC language... and this VERSE, says NOTHING about "the ...END of the WORLD"!

When will you learn that the book of REVELATION is about the REVEALING of a SPIRITUAL entity... JESUS CHRIST... which is the WORD of LOVE (God) -- 1 John 4:8 -- Who, ...oh yeah... IS a SPIRIT -- John 4:23 -- and,

His WORD will be understood ONLY within THE hearts of those who SEEK Him, and are IN SPIRIT ...not immersed WITHIN the (copying of the) CARNALITY of FLESHLY minds and the TRADITION of said CARNALITY -- Matt 15:6

Which promptly attempts to arrange SPIRITUAL and SYMBOLIC terminology to suit and support his/her RELIGION, and gets no more out of it than does any typical unbeliever or even an atheist, within said SPIRIT-LESS observation of it!

The WORD of YHVH is NOT a "LITERAL" HORROR STORY ...filled with Never ending WRATH and TORMENT and ... which seeks to DESTROY most of what He CREATES! ...for crying out loud! How could LOVE be so extensively and erroneously reported, when His OWN speak of him as worse than HITLER? Burning His "LOVED" ones mercilessly, FOREVER?


The WORD of YHVH (which the book of Revelation is about REVEALING) is a LOVE STORY ...which is about the RESCUING -- Luke 19:10 -- of that which has become LOST ...bringing home, ...His complete number of SHEEP! (destroyed/Apollumi = LOST SON, LOST SHEEP, LOST COIN!). -- Luke 15:4-6

What JESUS CHRIST IS, does not EVER change -- Heb 13:8
-- He that said "FORGIVE them for they KNOW not what they DO"... Shall not EVER turn into an UNREASONABLE, VENGENT MONSTER bent on DESTRUCTION!

Is THAT the JESUS which you sing of... @ Christmas time, gradyll? ...Or @ church? ...Or @ a FUNERAL?

If NOT, then you are totally confused. For this VENGENT, Inventor of HELL "God" is he of whom you continually speak of on this forum...


Rev 21:1 -- speaks of a New Heaven and a New Earth...

WE are the 1st Earth gradyll... and the "New Heaven" is a heart converted gradyll... for the HEART of MAN is the TEMPLE of GOD -- 1 Cor 6:19

The BODY and HEART of MAN which is NOW present as "earth" and "heaven" ...and is that which is in need of RE-CREATION! -- 2 Cor 5:17

The word CREATURE or CREATION is -- #G2937 - KTSIS -- which is the term used in both --- Mark 10:6 -- 2 Cor 5:17 -- one applying to "PHYSICAL CREATION" the other to "SPIRITUAL CREATION"...



VESSELS of DISHONOR (1st) and HONOR (last)

...we are ALL, BOTH...

Applying to all of us: (Rom 9:21) "...OF THE SAME LUMP" (of PHYSICAL Clay)... the FIRST Heart and Body (Heaven & Earth) were created to walk the pathway of DISHONOR -- Rom 9:21-23 -- Gen 2:7 -- to LIVE the life of SIN unto DEATH...

Then RAISED a NEW CREATION (New Heaven & New Earth) -- RAISED from the DEATH of LIFE, in and by the SPIRIT -- 1 Cor 15:42-51 -- IN the IMAGE of GOD, which KNOWS Good and Evil... exactly Like HIM in EVERY WAY, for,

HE IS, ...in His "UNCHANGING" and "EVERLASTING" WAY, ALL--IN--ALL! - 1 Cor 15:28

YHVH making Us ---> HIM = HIM <---- Us! = ALL--IN--ALL

This is much bigger than YOU presently PROPOSE in FLESHLY thinking...

Rather YOU are a SON of the MOST HIGH... Not just a refugee from SIN... or 1 of an INNUMMERABLE species... but a LIVING PART of His LIVING KNOWLEDGE of YHVH God, ...which KNOWS Good and EVIL...

SPECIAL because WITHOUT YOU, the KNOWLEDGE is INCOMPLETE!

For a moment, be willing to drop religious pride, and for a moment, ...open your eyes to something NEW... and,

KNOW that it is your destiny to LOVE the WORLD as does HE -- John 3:16-17 -- Even if it REQUIRED your LIFE, you would do it!

For THAT is the IMAGE of GOD = JESUS CHRIST who did EXACTLY THAT by giving His life for US! JESUS joined GOD's LOVE for US...

Then and ONLY THEN can you KNOW that you are SO much MORE than just SPECIAL, as you are made in HIS OWN IMAGE...

With the same GLORY -- Psalm 82:5-7 -- HIS SONS... an innumerable number as the SAND of the SEA or the STARS of HEAVEN, ...made in the SPITTIN' IMAGE of Him -- each, a needed WORD within His PERFECT, and COMPLETE and LIVING SPEECH named JESUS CHRIST, which contains within it, the LIVING KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...

WE are that ORATION, gradyll! You and Me!

WE are the very LIVING WORDS being spoken from the MOUTH of the ALMIGHTY YHVH -- Isaiah 55:11-- the GRANDEST, and most LOVING GRAMPA of them ALL! And He is ours and we are His... Praise be unto His name! YHVH

Forever He is and we are... BECOME KNOWN before ALL of Heaven and Earth, via the participation of YHVH, and of EACH [SON/WORD/MAN] -- that is spoken into LIFE upon EARTH -- John 1:1-9


In the DEATH of the SAVIOR, ...are we all KNOWN... as part of Him...

In the RESURRECTION to LIFE of the SAVIOR, ...are we also... ALL KNOWN... as part of Him...


YOU are the NEW CREATION, gradyll... the NEW Heaven, and the NEW Earth...

REASON notes that GOD does not need to RE-CREATE Mud, and Water, and Trees, and Mountains, who hae all suffered from the presence of US... That which needs to RE-CREATION, is ...US...

Wherever GOD is... HEAVEN is!

The SINFULNESS, UNRIGHTEOUSNESS and UNGODLINESS of MEN is the problem! Not the BEAUTIFUL Creation which GOD named as VERY GOOD in its creation/revelation -- Gen 1:31

The EARTH did nothing wrong gradyll! And certainly does not need RE-CREATING... it is MAN which needs it!

The EARTH in spite of man remains BEAUTIFUL in case you haven't noticed! The only parts of EARTH that are not BEAUTIFUL, is where MAN has tainted it with his presence and his doings.


Don't know if you will, but... TRY AGAIN (for you have failed) to find a verse in the BOOK of REVELATION that notes "the ...END of the WORLD"...

As always...


PEACE...


...willieH

you are confused on the outline of revelation spoken of in that link I gave you and you refused to read.

Please look at 1:19. As far as interpretation goes, 1:19 is the single most important verse of Revelation. This outline is God’s intended outline for the book and shows us that we should have a futuristic approach to the great majority of Revelation. The simple three-point outline is as follows: (1) “The things which you have seen” (the things past). The past things refer to those things which John had seen from 1:9-19 including 1:20, which is an explanation of part of the vision of the glorified Christ (1:9-20). (2) “The things which are” (the things present). The things present deal with the message to the seven churches and the state of the church of the church age (2:1-3:22). (3) “The things which will take place after these things” (the future things). This dominant section looks at the events that will occur after the church: the tribulation, the millennium, and the eternal state (4:1-22:21)."


the things that shall be hereafter, is the outline of revelation 21. So it's yet future. It can't be symbolic of the heart of man.

 

[he-man]

Revelation 21:1
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Thank you gradyll, that is of course symbolic of the coming of Christ who will subdue all nations and form a new government where there will be no more sin and death!
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

 

[WillieH]

you are confused on the outline of revelation spoken of in that link I gave you and you refused to read.

Please look at 1:19. As far as interpretation goes, 1:19 is the single most important verse of Revelation. This outline is God’s intended outline for the book and shows us that we should have a futuristic approach to the great majority of Revelation. The simple three-point outline is as follows: (1) “The things which you have seen” (the things past). The past things refer to those things which John had seen from 1:9-19 including 1:20, which is an explanation of part of the vision of the glorified Christ (1:9-20). (2) “The things which are” (the things present). The things present deal with the message to the seven churches and the state of the church of the church age (2:1-3:22). (3) “The things which will take place after these things” (the future things). This dominant section looks at the events that will occur after the church: the tribulation, the millennium, and the eternal state (4:1-22:21)."


the things that shall be hereafter, is the outline of revelation 21. So it's yet future. It can't be symbolic of the heart of man.

Since I have given you ample opportunity to actually discuss, by answering questions, and by addressing points made to you, ...from now on, ...you shall no longer recieve that opportunity from me.

Rather you shall GET what you GIVE... Which is generalization that does not address your points or questions, just as YOU do not address...

Though this response is addressed to YOU, ...most of this reply is for the sake of others which may be reading but not particpating in this discussion... and hopefully SEARCHING instead of parroting falsehoods which is your chosen and present position within your Cut & Paste religion...

That said:

FIRST -- Don't bother putting any links up that are from "cemetaries" be they in DALLAS, or NEW YORK or BANGKOK... expecting me to visit them.

I am not interested in the words of DEATH (found in "cemetaries")... rather the WORD of LIFE. (found in the Bible)


SECOND -- You are the one confused... but as you dwell in that state, you are also unwilling to further investigate that which you consider as TRUTH, which has been garnered by the COPYING of others admidst their foolishness, willingly adding yourself unto them.

So, there is no doubt that you shall remain in your very common arrogance which in these last days has become WIDESPREAD...

Decieving MANY with your false representations of YHVH GOD unto the WORLD, telling them He is a "creator of HELL" and that He shall TORMENT MOST of those whom He claims to LOVE, ...portraying to the WORLD that HE, ...in the LARGEST PART, ...is a DESTROYER rather than ...SAVIOR, CREATOR or LOVER of them...

Making THEM responsible in their SINFUL and FINITE inabilities to be righteous, while claiming YOURSELF as one of the "righteous", ...SAVED due to YOUR doings, exalting YOURSELF over the Creator, suggesting in your arrogance, that HE needs YOU to accomplish SALVATION by "your decision" to ACCEPT Him, instead of GLORIFYING Him in humility unto HIM, ...that YOU and everyone else are LOST without HIM and HIS DOINGS, and HIS ACCEPTANCE... of us. -- John 15:16

And as far as I am concerned, you are deserving of your "rewards"... Which (unfortunately for you) shall be to your coming chagrin --- Matt 7:22-23 -- Matt 24:5

As you FALSELY claim that you have "eyes to see. and ears to hear" -- Matt 13:12-15 -- Isaiah 6:9-10 -- left unto your doings and false teachings, ...without excuse, destined unto your own SHAME... ...having NOT "bought" the GOLD of CHRIST -- Rev 3:18 -- via your own dedications, rather, seeking instead, to slip in the back door, via your COPYING of other religionists, which have decieved you, ...and as have they done, ...so do you the very same unto others...


THIRD -- About the BOOK of the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST...

Any portion of the REVEALING of JESUS CHRIST (The REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST), has nothing to do with TIME... and it is HE which in His TIMELESSNESS, IS thereby applicable to ALL MEN, within ALL "times"...

For TIME is the realm of CORROSIVENESS and CORRUPTION, in which SIN and EVIL has been freely practiced and manifest by ALL that have been born into this realm, save ONE, ...JESUS CHRIST.

He IS the SAVIOR... not "was" the Savior, or "will be" the Savior, ...Rather IS ever that which He IS... In all portions of this realm, in which EVIL has been REVEALED via the doings in part, of ALL men...

Any TIME oriented Scriptures concerning JESUS CHRIST are given in DIVINE condescension to finites (not that you will know what this is) = TIME BOUND" beings... from an ETERNAL and UNCHANGING position that not only does NOT move or live IN "time", ...but is ever in HOLINESS, aside FROM it and the corrosiveness and destruction that it IS... which IS the LAKE of FIRE...

Consuming in the FIRE of His essence, the DOING of EVIL as it is done IN TIME... but REVEALING the KNOWLEDGE of it, which is PRESENT in the WORD and HEART of YHVH God... which KNOWLEDGE is EVERLASTING in its UNCHANGINGNESS within Him.

CHRIST is the SAME - yesterday - today and - forever -- all of which are the SAME to GOD... ALL of which are taking place... NOW...

For HE IS (not was or will be)... the BEGINNING and the END (ALPHA and OMEGA)... the "beginning and end" are one and the same thing. (again, this is probably just one more thing of MANY that you WILL NOT and therefore, CANNOT understand within your present CARNALITY).

Therefore, ...IESOUS, IS in ALL portions of TIME, the SAME to ALL MEN... for the earmark and essence of what TIME "IS", in each of its moment,s ...IS... "NOW".

In TRUTH, there IS no future, nor past, ...there ...IS, ..only NOW.

gradyll = cradle ...maybe one day you shall come out of your milk-fed diet, ...climbing out of that cradle, and actually come to discover SPIRITUAL meanings which are found within the WORD. of YHVH, the SAVIOR of ALL MEN -- 1 Tim 4:9-11

Instead of the current method you employ, ...which is the admitted (by YOU), COPYING of others, and their INIQUITOUS "papers" written by the MANY whom shall FAIL in their "doings", ...and whose percieved "good and wonderful works", shall be REJECTED of Him -- Matt 7:22-23

May His mercy be upon you...

You still have time, ...and if you are wise, you will take advantage of it, before it swallows you up in its iniquity...

As always, ...I wish you... and all others reading this...


PEACE


...willieH

 

[createdtoworship]

I am not interested in the words of DEATH (found in "cemetaries")... rather the WORD of LIFE. (found in the Bible)

not all seminaries are cemetaries, you seem to have a problem with the science of interpretation

I thought I would copy and paste some more about hermeneutics since you seem to be missing the mark completely on your interpretations of scripture

from Biblestudytools.com

Our position is that the book of Revelation is to be interpreted normally, like any other writing, and especially like the rest of the Scriptures. We part company here from those who seek to classify the book as being representative of the apocalyptic genre so they can apply a mystical or spiritual &#8220;spin&#8221; to the text and make it mean all manner of things.

D.L. Cooper gives a reasonable definition of normal interpretation in his Golden Rule of Interpretation:

When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense, therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.&#8212;The Golden Rule of Interpretation, D.L. Cooper3
The rule includes the important phrase, studied in the light of related passages. This is the biblical equivalent of a &#8220;safety net.&#8221; In the same way that trapeze artists performing on the high-wire are protected by a net below which catches them in the event of a fall, comparing Scripture with Scripture provides a doctrinal &#8220;safety net&#8221; to keep the interpreter from &#8220;falling&#8221; into an inconsistent understanding or interpretation. This principle is also known as the Analogy of Scripture or Systematic Theology: the systematic study of the Scriptures across all the books of the Bible to arrive at a self-consistent understanding of any particular topic. This principle is founded upon the inerrancy and inspiration of Scripture. That the inspired books, being ultimately the work of the Holy Spirit (2Pe. 2Pe. 1:19-21), are without error and consistent in their teaching from Genesis Gen. 1:1 through Revelation Rev. 22:21+. When we encounter what seems to be an inconsistency (commonly referred to as a &#8220;Bible Difficulty&#8221, we must assume that the problem is one of our own understanding and not God&#8217;s Word. The experienced student of the Word will recognize how frequently what appeared to be contradictory turned out, upon further insight, study, and illumination, to be by design.4

Notice that the Golden Rule holds that we adhere to the plain sense of Scripture and not seek any other sense unless there are good reasons for doing otherwise. These reasons must be found in the immediate context of the passage under study or related passages. It is not sufficient to simply classify the book of Revelation as an apocalypse and therefore turn the rules of interpretation upside-down as does this commentator:

A failure to take full account of [the apocalyptic] feature has led to some of the most outlandish teachings on this book by some whose rule of interpretation is &#8220;literal, unless absurd.&#8221; Though this is a good rule when dealing with literature written in a literal genre, it is the exact opposite in the case of apocalyptic literature, where symbolism is the rule, and literalism the exception. [emphasis added]5
Notice how this commentator appeals to the apocalyptic genre in order to dismiss normative interpretation and to assert that we should avoid normative interpretation in favor of pure symbolic conjecture! The easy answer to this proposal is to simply ask, &#8220;Whose symbolic interpretation?&#8221; No real answer can be given. This is because there in an infinite variety of interpretations possible when using symbolic conjecture. The result is that no two interpreters hold to the same meaning except in a handful of areas. This fact alone disqualifies a non-literal framework because it has factually demonstrated its bankruptcy at conveying a reliable message from God. In effect, it makes the book of Revelation unknowable by man.

The recommendation that normalcy be inverted reminds us of our high-school literature class where we read Melville&#8217;s Moby Dick and then spent weeks guessing at obscure, hidden, multiple meanings which the author &#8220;might&#8221; have intended. It was great fun and students were awarded an &#8220;A&#8221; for creativity, but I often thought of how Melville would likely turn in his grave if he heard the things he was supposed to have communicated! But interpreting God&#8217;s Holy Word is the antithesis of the high-school literature class, for here creativity is awarded a grade of &#8220;F!&#8221;

Why do we insist on normalcy in our interpretation of all of Scripture? Couch identifies a number of reasons:

Those who are committed to a normal reading of Scripture offer at least three reasons: First, the obvious purpose of language is to enable effective communication between intelligent beings. Words have meaning and in their normal usage are intended to be understood. . . . God is the originator of language. When He spoke audibly to man, He expected man to understand Him and respond accordingly. Likewise, when God speaks to man through the inspired writings of His apostles and prophets, He expects man to understand and respond accordingly. . . . A second reason for a normal reading of Scripture concerns the historical fulfillment of prophecy. All the prophecies of the Old and New Testament that have been fulfilled to date have been fulfilled literally. . . . Thus, . . . all prophecies which are yet to be fulfilled will be fulfilled literally. A third reason concerns logic. If an interpreter does not use the normal, customary, literal method of interpreting Scripture, interpretation is given over to the unconstrained imagination and presuppositions of the interpreter.6
Neglect of this last reason is most evident in the widely-varying imaginative interpretations of the non-literal interpreters. Once the &#8220;tether of normative interpretation&#8221; is cut, the helium balloon of the interpreter&#8217;s imagination floats ever further afield from the intended meaning of the text. This single factor accounts for the majority of nonsense which is offered as commentary on the book of Revelation.

As an example of how quickly those who forsake literal interpretation choose to ignore the pattern of previously-fulfilled literal prophecy, Couch&#8217;s second reason for normalcy, consider Beale&#8217;s statement which asserts that the plagues in Revelation are unlikely to be literal like those recorded elsewhere in Scripture:

The parallel with Exodus does not supply unambiguous demonstration in support of a literal fulfillment. All that it shows is that the two descriptions are homologous, that is, that they have an essential relation in some manner. But the nature of that relation needs to be determined. Are they homologous in their physical form and effects, or in theological significance, or both? The images depicted certainly refer to actual events on the referential level.. . . In Revelation the fire and hail are to be understood on the symbolic level as representing particular facets of divine judgment that can be drawn out further by thorough exegesis of the theological meaning of this particular Exodus plague. [These] speak of God depriving the ungodly of earthly security. [emphasis added]7
Beale denies literal fire and hail in the book of Revelation as found elsewhere in Scripture asserting that the reader is to seek for a theological meaning beyond the plain text. The fire and hail are themselves no longer important, but the theological meaning behind the text is now primary. But who determines the meaning behind the text and how is it determined? A perusal of the writings of expositors employing this approach readily reveals the enormous subjectivity which enters upon the process of answering these questions to arrive at an interpretation.

Another key advantage of normal interpretation is it is minimal, contributing the barest interpretive layer over the inspired text from God. &#8220;The best interpretation of a historical record is no interpretation but simply letting the divine Author of the record say what He says and assuming He says what He means.&#8221;8 The &#8220;thicker&#8221; the layer of interpretation required to make sense of the underlying text, the greater the danger that the commentator will wind up adding to or subtracting from the meaning intended by God (Rev. Rev. 22:18-19+).9 This minimalist interpretation is the way a reader would most likely understand the text when absent from the guidance of an allegorical interpreter.

If one were on a desert island and read Revelation for the first time, how would he normally interpret the book? The answer would be &#8220;actual and literal,&#8221; unless there was an amillennialist and allegorist around to say, &#8220;No, no, these events are not real! They have some hidden meaning that no one is sure of, but don&#8217;t let that bother you!&#8221;10
http://www.biblestudytools.com/comm...on/the-art-and-science-of-interpretation.html

 

[createdtoworship]

Thank you gradyll, that is of course symbolic of the coming of Christ who will subdue all nations and form a new government where there will be no more sin and death!
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

actually the coming of Christ is in chapter 19, not chapter 21

 

[createdtoworship]

This text is SPIRITUALLY SYMBOLIC -- Rev 1:1 -- and cannot be interpreted as LITERAL... as well, any ATHEIST can come to the very same conclusion that you have proposed above in reading it.

We cannot "pick and choose" which things are LITERAL and which are SYMBOLIC... so they shall agree with our religion.

If we take this book as LITERAL in one place, we must take it in all places... which note that -- STARS which turn WATERS of EARTH into WOOD -- Rev 8:11 -- and 4 BEASTS FULL OF EYES -- inside -- Rev 4:8 -- and many others which sound RIDICULOUS in the LITERAL observation of them.


PEACE...


...willieH

Here is a seminary level commentary on Revelation 8:11 and 4:8

"Revelation 8:10-11. The judgment following the third . . . trumpet was similar to that of the second. But here the mass falling from heaven to earth was a great star, blazing like a torch. This fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water; in other words, waters other than the oceans.
The star was named Wormwood. Wormwood is a bitter desert plant mentioned only here in the New Testament. It is mentioned seven times in the Old Testament where it represents sorrow and bitter judgment (Deut. 29:18; Prov. 5:4; Jer. 9:15; 23:15; Lam. 3:15, 19; Amos 5:7).
Though many have attempted to interpret the third trumpet symbolically, it seems best to consider it as a large meteor or star falling on the earth from heaven and turning the water, as indicated, into bitterness so that people who drank it died. The contrast found in the Cross of Christ is symbolized in the sweetening of the waters of Marah (Ex. 15:23-25) and the turning of bitter judgment into sweet mercy, bringing life and hope. The third trumpet is another awesome judgment resulting in great loss of life."

Walvoord, John F. ; Zuck, Roy B. ; Dallas Theological Seminary: The Bible Knowledge Commentary : An Exposition of the Scriptures. Wheaton, IL : Victor Books, 1983-c1985, S. 2:951-952

"Revelation 4:8. Like the seraphim (cf. Isa 6:2), the living creatures each have six wings. If their wings perform the same function as the seraphim, four of the six wings cover their entire bodies and denote humility and reverence toward God Almighty. With the other two wings they fly, which points to their readiness to obey the command of God. When they are not engaged in a God-given task, the living creatures do not rest in exalting the holiness, power, and eternality of God.
The MT contains an astoundingly resplendent tribute to the holiness of each member of the Trinity in that the trisagion of v 8 (&#8220;Holy, holy, holy&#8221 is proclaimed three times: &#8220;Holy, holy, holy, Holy, holy, holy, Holy, holy holy&#8221;&#8212;a tri-trisagion! Each member of the Godhead is infinitely holy in His own person."

Vacendak, Robert: The Revelation of Jesus Christ. In: Wilkin, Robert N. (Hrsg.): The Grace New Testament Commentary. Denton, TX : Grace Evangelical Society, 2010, S. 1273

 

[WillieH]

not all seminaries are cemetaries, you seem to have a problem with the science of interpretation

I thought I would copy and paste some more about hermeneutics since you seem to be missing the mark completely on your interpretations of scripture

from Biblestudytools.com

Our position is that the book of Revelation is to be interpreted normally, like any other writing, and especially like the rest of the Scriptures. We part company here from those who seek to classify the book as being representative of the apocalyptic genre so they can apply a mystical or spiritual “spin” to the text and make it mean all manner of things.

D.L. Cooper gives a reasonable definition of normal interpretation in his Golden Rule of Interpretation:

When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense, therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.—The Golden Rule of Interpretation, D.L. Cooper3
The rule includes the important phrase, studied in the light of related passages. This is the biblical equivalent of a “safety net.” In the same way that trapeze artists performing on the high-wire are protected by a net below which catches them in the event of a fall, comparing Scripture with Scripture provides a doctrinal “safety net” to keep the interpreter from “falling” into an inconsistent understanding or interpretation. This principle is also known as the Analogy of Scripture or Systematic Theology: the systematic study of the Scriptures across all the books of the Bible to arrive at a self-consistent understanding of any particular topic. This principle is founded upon the inerrancy and inspiration of Scripture. That the inspired books, being ultimately the work of the Holy Spirit (2Pe. 2Pe. 1:19-21), are without error and consistent in their teaching from Genesis Gen. 1:1 through Revelation Rev. 22:21+. When we encounter what seems to be an inconsistency (commonly referred to as a “Bible Difficulty”), we must assume that the problem is one of our own understanding and not God’s Word. The experienced student of the Word will recognize how frequently what appeared to be contradictory turned out, upon further insight, study, and illumination, to be by design.4

Notice that the Golden Rule holds that we adhere to the plain sense of Scripture and not seek any other sense unless there are good reasons for doing otherwise. These reasons must be found in the immediate context of the passage under study or related passages. It is not sufficient to simply classify the book of Revelation as an apocalypse and therefore turn the rules of interpretation upside-down as does this commentator:

A failure to take full account of [the apocalyptic] feature has led to some of the most outlandish teachings on this book by some whose rule of interpretation is “literal, unless absurd.” Though this is a good rule when dealing with literature written in a literal genre, it is the exact opposite in the case of apocalyptic literature, where symbolism is the rule, and literalism the exception. [emphasis added]5
Notice how this commentator appeals to the apocalyptic genre in order to dismiss normative interpretation and to assert that we should avoid normative interpretation in favor of pure symbolic conjecture! The easy answer to this proposal is to simply ask, “Whose symbolic interpretation?” No real answer can be given. This is because there in an infinite variety of interpretations possible when using symbolic conjecture. The result is that no two interpreters hold to the same meaning except in a handful of areas. This fact alone disqualifies a non-literal framework because it has factually demonstrated its bankruptcy at conveying a reliable message from God. In effect, it makes the book of Revelation unknowable by man.

The recommendation that normalcy be inverted reminds us of our high-school literature class where we read Melville’s Moby Dick and then spent weeks guessing at obscure, hidden, multiple meanings which the author “might” have intended. It was great fun and students were awarded an “A” for creativity, but I often thought of how Melville would likely turn in his grave if he heard the things he was supposed to have communicated! But interpreting God’s Holy Word is the antithesis of the high-school literature class, for here creativity is awarded a grade of “F!”

Why do we insist on normalcy in our interpretation of all of Scripture? Couch identifies a number of reasons:

Those who are committed to a normal reading of Scripture offer at least three reasons: First, the obvious purpose of language is to enable effective communication between intelligent beings. Words have meaning and in their normal usage are intended to be understood. . . . God is the originator of language. When He spoke audibly to man, He expected man to understand Him and respond accordingly. Likewise, when God speaks to man through the inspired writings of His apostles and prophets, He expects man to understand and respond accordingly. . . . A second reason for a normal reading of Scripture concerns the historical fulfillment of prophecy. All the prophecies of the Old and New Testament that have been fulfilled to date have been fulfilled literally. . . . Thus, . . . all prophecies which are yet to be fulfilled will be fulfilled literally. A third reason concerns logic. If an interpreter does not use the normal, customary, literal method of interpreting Scripture, interpretation is given over to the unconstrained imagination and presuppositions of the interpreter.6
Neglect of this last reason is most evident in the widely-varying imaginative interpretations of the non-literal interpreters. Once the “tether of normative interpretation” is cut, the helium balloon of the interpreter’s imagination floats ever further afield from the intended meaning of the text. This single factor accounts for the majority of nonsense which is offered as commentary on the book of Revelation.

As an example of how quickly those who forsake literal interpretation choose to ignore the pattern of previously-fulfilled literal prophecy, Couch’s second reason for normalcy, consider Beale’s statement which asserts that the plagues in Revelation are unlikely to be literal like those recorded elsewhere in Scripture:

The parallel with Exodus does not supply unambiguous demonstration in support of a literal fulfillment. All that it shows is that the two descriptions are homologous, that is, that they have an essential relation in some manner. But the nature of that relation needs to be determined. Are they homologous in their physical form and effects, or in theological significance, or both? The images depicted certainly refer to actual events on the referential level.. . . In Revelation the fire and hail are to be understood on the symbolic level as representing particular facets of divine judgment that can be drawn out further by thorough exegesis of the theological meaning of this particular Exodus plague. [These] speak of God depriving the ungodly of earthly security. [emphasis added]7
Beale denies literal fire and hail in the book of Revelation as found elsewhere in Scripture asserting that the reader is to seek for a theological meaning beyond the plain text. The fire and hail are themselves no longer important, but the theological meaning behind the text is now primary. But who determines the meaning behind the text and how is it determined? A perusal of the writings of expositors employing this approach readily reveals the enormous subjectivity which enters upon the process of answering these questions to arrive at an interpretation.

Another key advantage of normal interpretation is it is minimal, contributing the barest interpretive layer over the inspired text from God. “The best interpretation of a historical record is no interpretation but simply letting the divine Author of the record say what He says and assuming He says what He means.”8 The “thicker” the layer of interpretation required to make sense of the underlying text, the greater the danger that the commentator will wind up adding to or subtracting from the meaning intended by God (Rev. Rev. 22:18-19+).9 This minimalist interpretation is the way a reader would most likely understand the text when absent from the guidance of an allegorical interpreter.

If one were on a desert island and read Revelation for the first time, how would he normally interpret the book? The answer would be “actual and literal,” unless there was an amillennialist and allegorist around to say, “No, no, these events are not real! They have some hidden meaning that no one is sure of, but don’t let that bother you!”10
The Art and Science of Interpretation

Nothing of any use here... ...except maybe for zombies...


PEACE...


...willieH

 

[WillieH]

Here is a seminary level commentary on Revelation 8:11 and 4:8

"Revelation 8:10-11. The judgment following the third . . . trumpet was similar to that of the second. But here the mass falling from heaven to earth was a great star, blazing like a torch. This fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water; in other words, waters other than the oceans.
The star was named Wormwood. Wormwood is a bitter desert plant mentioned only here in the New Testament. It is mentioned seven times in the Old Testament where it represents sorrow and bitter judgment (Deut. 29:18; Prov. 5:4; Jer. 9:15; 23:15; Lam. 3:15, 19; Amos 5:7).
Though many have attempted to interpret the third trumpet symbolically, it seems best to consider it as a large meteor or star falling on the earth from heaven and turning the water, as indicated, into bitterness so that people who drank it died. The contrast found in the Cross of Christ is symbolized in the sweetening of the waters of Marah (Ex. 15:23-25) and the turning of bitter judgment into sweet mercy, bringing life and hope. The third trumpet is another awesome judgment resulting in great loss of life."

Walvoord, John F. ; Zuck, Roy B. ; Dallas Theological Seminary: The Bible Knowledge Commentary : An Exposition of the Scriptures. Wheaton, IL : Victor Books, 1983-c1985, S. 2:951-952

"Revelation 4:8. Like the seraphim (cf. Isa 6:2), the living creatures each have six wings. If their wings perform the same function as the seraphim, four of the six wings cover their entire bodies and denote humility and reverence toward God Almighty. With the other two wings they fly, which points to their readiness to obey the command of God. When they are not engaged in a God-given task, the living creatures do not rest in exalting the holiness, power, and eternality of God.
The MT contains an astoundingly resplendent tribute to the holiness of each member of the Trinity in that the trisagion of v 8 (&#8220;Holy, holy, holy&#8221 is proclaimed three times: &#8220;Holy, holy, holy, Holy, holy, holy, Holy, holy holy&#8221;&#8212;a tri-trisagion! Each member of the Godhead is infinitely holy in His own person."

Vacendak, Robert: The Revelation of Jesus Christ. In: Wilkin, Robert N. (Hrsg.): The Grace New Testament Commentary. Denton, TX : Grace Evangelical Society, 2010, S. 1273

More info for the blind & deaf... ...direct from the Dallas The-ILLOGICAL cemetery...

PEACE...


...willieH

 

[createdtoworship]

Nothing of any use here... ...except maybe for zombies...


PEACE...


...willieH

wow, willie ran out of words! Thats a new one. Just so you know I am giving you a seminary level training, you should be thankful. People pay a lot of money to take a class on hermeneutics.

 

[createdtoworship]

More info for the blind & deaf... ...direct from the Dallas The-ILLOGICAL cemetery...

PEACE...


...willieH

you need a bachelors degree even to get into Dallas Theological, you should give it a little more respect.

 

[Timothew]

I think this thread has gotten off topic.
Wasn't the original OP saying that she didn't believe in the fiery torment pit called hell? I have shown that the common idea of hell is unbiblical. Others have shown that the common idea of eternal torment in hell is unjust.

I believe it is past time for all of the churches to discard the antiquated theory of eternal torment in hell. They stopped burning witches over 300 years ago. It's time to let this embarrassment go, too.

 

[createdtoworship]

I think this thread has gotten off topic.
Wasn't the original OP saying that she didn't believe in the fiery torment pit called hell? I have shown that the common idea of hell is unbiblical. Others have shown that the common idea of eternal torment in hell is unjust.

I believe it is past time for all of the churches to discard the antiquated theory of eternal torment in hell. They stopped burning witches over 300 years ago. It's time to let this embarrassment go, too.

An association fallacy is an inductive informal fallacy of the type hasty generalization or red herring which asserts that qualities of one thing are inherently qualities of another, merely by an irrelevant association. The two types are sometimes referred to as guilt by association and honor by association. Association fallacies are a special case of red herring, and can be based on an appeal to emotion.

guilt by association fallacy (wikipedia)

sorry no evidence provided for your claims.

(your interpretations of the Bible have been extremely off in the past, you would do well to glean over the last few posts about hermeneutics)

 

[he-man]

I think this thread has gotten off topic.
Wasn't the original OP saying that she didn't believe in the fiery torment pit called hell? I have shown that the common idea of hell is unbiblical. Others have shown that the common idea of eternal torment in hell is unjust.

I believe it is past time for all of the churches to discard the antiquated theory of eternal torment in hell. They stopped burning witches over 300 years ago. It's time to let this embarrassment go, too.

 

[createdtoworship]

 

[Timothew]

An association fallacy is an inductive informal fallacy of the type hasty generalization or red herring which asserts that qualities of one thing are inherently qualities of another, merely by an irrelevant association. The two types are sometimes referred to as guilt by association and honor by association. Association fallacies are a special case of red herring, and can be based on an appeal to emotion.

guilt by association fallacy (wikipedia)

sorry no evidence provided for your claims.

(your interpretations of the Bible have been extremely off in the past, you would do well to glean over the last few posts about hermeneutics)

OK, you aren't burning witches so that doesn't really apply.

But due to the overwhelming scriptural support for annihilationism and against eternal tormentalism, ET should be droppped "toot-sweet".

 

[createdtoworship]

OK, you aren't burning witches so that doesn't really apply.

But due to the overwhelming scriptural support for annihilationism and against eternal tormentalism, ET should be droppped "toot-sweet".

the fallacy came when you spoke of witch burnings in comparision to ET, your shifty replies don't help your reputation as a fallacy maker.

 

[Timothew]

the fallacy came when you spoke of witch burnings in comparision to ET, your shifty replies don't help your reputation as a fallacy maker.

Oh, the witch burning was just a fun little comparison. You are taking it too seriously. It's like a Jeopardy Catagory.
Bizarre Church History
100. Spanish Inquisition
200. Witch Burnings
300. Indulgences
400. Newton Trial
500. Eternal Torment

Alex Trebeck: This doctrine was invented in the dark ages to bolster sagging church attendance

Tim: Buzz

Alex Trebeck: Tim?

Tim: What is Eternal Torment?

Alex Trebeck: 500 points!

 

[Hillsage]

the fallacy came when you spoke of witch burnings in comparision to ET, your shifty replies don't help your reputation as a fallacy maker.

Not a "shifty reply" at all. They are simply replies that reveal who's hearts truly line up with the heart of a God who devised a winning plan that was for salvation, and not a loosing plan for purposeless neverending sadistic torture of almost ALL of His creation. And it was the "deceitful and desperately wicked" heart a 'nominal' church who devised these 'witch burning' tortures to mimic their 'twisted' view of Him. They have not the heart of God, they have an image of God that's after their own deceitful hearts.

 

[WillieH]

wow, willie ran out of words! Thats a new one. Just so you know I am giving you a seminary level training, you should be thankful. People pay a lot of money to take a class on hermeneutics.

FIRST --- As far as "words"... Well, ...you are unable to pay attention to more than a few at a time, so I thought to give you a break out of compassion and kindness... ...but since you have shown you miss it... here are a some more:


SECOND --- No thanks... Keep your deceptions and cemetary commentarise, ...I have, ABSOLUTELY, ...no use for them whatosever!


THIRD --- You say, ...people pay a LOT of MONEY? Foolish people... for the REVELATION of the WORD does not come via MONEY involvment, EVER!

That is the FIRST and PRIMARY indication of the DISCONNECTION that these "cemetaries" extend to the world...

They REQUIRE MONEY to distribute their deceptions to you.. ...and YOU, ...pay IT! ...they really saw you coming!

The WORD is FREE of any connection to MONEY... and though it is intended for ALL on an INDIVIDUAL basis, to STUDY it and pursue it AS INDIVIDUALS -- Jer 29:13-14 -- Acts 17:10 (turned right to the page as I am writing this ) -- 2 Tim 2:15 -- MOST (as have YOU) ...are too lazy to study, so they borrow from the "WHITED SEPCULCRES" -- Matt 23:27 -- their "beliefs".


MONEY seeking institutions, and their requirement of it to pass on "truth", is due to their LOVE of it... which is the ROOT of ALL EVIL -- 1 Tim 6:10 -- to be shown openly -- Matt 7:22-23
-- and SHALL, ...be REJECTED by CHRIST! ...you are welcome to swallow all the deceitful teaching ("spiritual cadaverism") they offer, to your hearts content... no problem!


FOURTH --- Over the last several years, I have already debated many of these "cemetary" ("whited sepulcre") grads... which do know their false doctrine pretty well, ...and which falsehood, is EASILY disassembled (as I have already done with the "Dallas The-ILLOGICAL cemetary"...

The only requirement to see/hear the presence of FALSE DOCTRINE, ...is the one hearing/seeing the "disassembling" has to have OPEN and UNPRIDEFUL ears/eyes... ...and a WHOLE HEART pursuit of TRUTH...

You are welcome to continue to live in the dark bro... as it seems to be, what you LOVE...

You have been warned bro, ...and in the end, you will have no one to blame but YOURSELF... You won't even be able to successfully blame your SHAME, on the "Dallas The-ILLOGICAL cemetary" (which seems to be your "favorite", are you a GRAD? )... for they will be quite busy with their own SHAME to worry about you...

Such a pity...


PEACE...


...willieH

 

[WillieH]

Oh, the witch burning was just a fun little comparison. You are taking it too seriously. It's like a Jeopardy Catagory.
Bizarre Church History
100. Spanish Inquisition
200. Witch Burnings
300. Indulgences
400. Newton Trial
500. Eternal Torment

Alex Trebeck: This doctrine was invented in the dark ages to bolster sagging church attendance

Tim: Buzz

Alex Trebeck: Tim?

Tim: What is Eternal Torment?

Alex Trebeck: 500 points!

Loved it!

peace...


...willieH