Let's Talk About Hell (4)

[Sophrosyne]

The judgement has not happened yet.

That makes sense, so in your opinion based upon your understanding is Adam alive (awake) or in stasis (asleep)?

 

[Sophrosyne]

No death is death. Death is not being alive,

Welcome to ignore.

Okie dokie.

 

[Mikecpking]

That makes sense, so in your opinion based upon your understanding is Adam alive (awake) or in stasis (asleep)?

Daniel 12:2, Job 14:10-12 should give you a clue.

For an NT perspective, John 5:28-29.

 

[Mikecpking]

I believe he died a mortal death but his immortal being is still living.

1 Timothy 6:
God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see.

 

[Timothew]

If people who are in caught up in the eternal torment cult have questions about conditional immortality or annihilationism, they should investigate the truth from the bible and not attempt to drag us into their cult.

 

[createdtoworship]

torment is a different greek word than torture

from:
Vine, W. E. ; Unger, Merrill F. ; White, William: Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words. Nashville : T. Nelson, 1996, S. 2:637

TORMENT (Noun and Verb)
A. Nouns.
1. basanismos (βασανισμός, 929), akin to basanizo (see toil, No. 2), is used of divine judgments in Rev. 9:5; 14:11; 18:7, 10, 15.¶
2. basanos (βάσανος, 931), primarily “a touchstone,” employed in testing metals, hence, “torment,” is used (a) of physical diseases, Matt. 4:24: (b) of a condition of retribution in Hades, Luke 16:23, 28.¶
Note: In 1 John 4:18, kjv, kolasis, “punishment” (rv), is rendered “torment.” See punishment, No. 3.
B. Verbs.
1. basanizo (βασανίζω, 928), for which see toil, No. 2, is translated “to torment,” (a) of sickness, Matt. 8:6; (b) of the doom of evil spirits, Mark 5:7; Luke 8:28; (c) of retributive judgments upon impenitent mankind at the close of this age, Rev. 9:5; 11:10; (d) upon those who worship the Beast and his image and receive the mark of his name, 14:10; (e) of the doom of Satan and his agents, 20:10.
2. kakoucheo (κακουχέω, 2558), “to treat evilly,” in the passive voice is translated “tormented” in Heb. 11:37, kjv (rv, “evil entreated”). See suffer, No. 6.
3. odunao (ὀδυνάω, 3600), for which see anguish, B, No. 3, in the passive voice is rendered “I am (thou art) tormented” in Luke 16:24, 25, kjv.
...
TORTURE (Verb)
tumpanizo (τυμπανίζω, 5178) primarily denotes “to beat a drum” (tumpanon, “a kettledrum,” Eng., “tympanal,” “tympanitis,” “tympanum”), hence, “to torture by beating, to beat to death,” Heb. 11:35.¶ In the Sept., 1 Sam. 21:13, “(David) drummed (upon the doors of the city).”¶ The tympanum as an instrument of “torture” seems to have been a wheel-shaped frame upon which criminals were stretched and beaten with clubs or thongs.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Daniel 12:2, Job 14:10-12 should give you a clue.

For an NT perspective, John 5:28-29.

Thanks for the non answer.

 

[Mikecpking]

Thanks for the non answer.

I let scripture speak for itself:

Daniel 12:2

New International Version (NIV)

2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.


Job 14:10-12

New International Version (NIV)


10 But a man dies and is laid low;
he breathes his last and is no more.
11 As the water of a lake dries up
or a riverbed becomes parched and dry,
12 so he lies down and does not rise;
till the heavens are no more, people will not awake
or be roused from their sleep

and Jesus' words:

John 5:28-29

New International Version (NIV)


28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned

Now, do you think Adam was any different when he died when compared to any other man?

 

[Sophrosyne]

Now, do you think Adam was any different when he died when compared to any other man?

So I think your answer is adam is asleep instead of awake in heaven... correct? If that is your answer then thanks that is all I wanted to know.

 

[Mikecpking]

So I think your answer is adam is asleep instead of awake in heaven... correct? If that is your answer then thanks that is all I wanted to know.

John 3:13

New International Version (NIV)

13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[a]

What do you think the bible is teaching?

 

[Sophrosyne]

John 3:13

New International Version (NIV)

13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[a]

What do you think the bible is teaching?

That at that time (before Jesus went to the cross and was resurrected) nobody had gone to heaven. I believe that all in paradise (the thief on the cross) were taken out of there when Jesus ascended to heaven they all went with him so the place is now empty. We go to heaven immediately. I am not 100% sure those who die that are lost go immediately to hell... It matters not to me if they sleep for awhile because I believe they end up in Hell forever so a million year sleep is meaningless to an eternity in Hell it is a blink of the eye nap prior to endless torment.

 

[Mikecpking]

That at that time (before Jesus went to the cross and was resurrected) nobody had gone to heaven. I believe that all in paradise (the thief on the cross) were taken out of there when Jesus ascended to heaven they all went with him so the place is now empty. We go to heaven immediately. I am not 100% sure those who die that are lost go immediately to hell... It matters not to me if they sleep for awhile because I believe they end up in Hell forever so a million year sleep is meaningless to an eternity in Hell it is a blink of the eye nap prior to endless torment.

Hi,
This is a common misconception. The Christian view is the resurrection of the dead on the last day. Infact, Peter in his famous pentecostal sermon in Acts 2:29-34 even stated that David was buried and his tomb was there to that day and even he was not risen up. Remember, the gospel of John was written many years after Jesus had left the earth!

The thief on the cross could not have been in heaven, becuase Jesus was in the tomb for 3 days and it was some time later he ascended. There was no punctuation in Greek so the comma being placed after the word 'today' removes all contradictions.

Scripture clearly states we are in the grave until the last day:

Jesus' own words:

John 6:40

New International Version (NIV)

40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”


This concurs with all the other scriptures I posted; why do you believe something else?

 

[Sophrosyne]

Hi,
This is a common misconception. The Christian view is the resurrection of the dead on the last day. Infact, Peter in his famous pentecostal sermon in Acts 2:29-34 even stated that David was buried and his tomb was there to that day and even he was not risen up. Remember, the gospel of John was written many years after Jesus had left the earth!

The thief on the cross could not have been in heaven, becuase Jesus was in the tomb for 3 days and it was some time later he ascended. There was no punctuation in Greek so the comma being placed after the word 'today' removes all contradictions.

Scripture clearly states we are in the grave until the last day:

Jesus' own words:

John 6:40

New International Version (NIV)

40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”


This concurs with all the other scriptures I posted; why do you believe something else?

To be honest I have heard a scripture about being absent from the body is to be present to the Lord. I never really bothered to check into the exactness of when we would be in heaven because I figured either we go there directly or we are awakened whenever and go there directly. If you are not awake it matters not how long you are asleep as long as you awake. There are things that I also haven't checked out or completely understood like Moses and Elijah with Jesus in the new testament. Elijah didn't die but Moses we were lead to believe did yet he was alive anyway before the ressurrection I contend he went to heaven like Jesus did as I see no reason for God to keep him out or put him back in the grave again to sleep. There is also verses about people resurrected when Jesus died... they did not stay in the grave till the last day either.

 

[createdtoworship]

John 3:13

New International Version (NIV)

13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[a]

What do you think the bible is teaching?

this is talking about ascension, look at the other translations.

 

[Mikecpking]

To be honest I have heard a scripture about being absent from the body is to be present to the Lord. I never really bothered to check into the exactness of when we would be in heaven because I figured either we go there directly or we are awakened whenever and go there directly. If you are not awake it matters not how long you are asleep as long as you awake. There are things that I also haven't checked out or completely understood like Moses and Elijah with Jesus in the new testament. Elijah didn't die but Moses we were lead to believe did yet he was alive anyway before the ressurrection I contend he went to heaven like Jesus did as I see no reason for God to keep him out or put him back in the grave again to sleep. There is also verses about people resurrected when Jesus died... they did not stay in the grave till the last day either.

Hi,
There were always exceptions like Enoch and Elijah and Moses, but in general, the grave is the resting place until Christ comes back which will be the last day.
Being absent from the body and to be present with the lord should be taken in context with broad scripture rather than making a theological statement on its own. Paul knew he was going to die, but he also knew that his next waking moment would be with Christ on the last day. His old body would have turned to dust and he would receive a new resurrection body (1 cor 15). He would have not noticed the passage of time spent in the grave until the resurrection day which is still to come.
The people who were raised when Jesus rose was a temporary thing; just like Lazarus was raised in John 11. They died again later, but the resurrection of Jesus was a foretaste of what was to come rather than a general resurrection for everyone who died before.

 

[Mikecpking]

this is talking about ascension, look at the other translations.

Hi Gradyll,
You also have to look at what broad scripture is teaching. Look at what Peter had to say on the day of Pentecost. He was clear that Jesus was risen and specifically mentioned that David had not ascended to heaven. Why do you think he mentions that?

Acts 2:29-34

New International Version (NIV)


29 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven,

 

[WillieH]

The judgement has not happened yet.

Mmmm.... I beg to differ! Your words are in conflict with those of JESUS CHRIST:

John 12:31 -- "NOW, ...IS ...the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD... NOW shall the prince of THIS WORLD be cast out".



PEACE...


...willieH

 

[WillieH]

willieH: Hi gradyll...

I disagree with your disagreement.

That is the best you can do? Mmmkay... disagreement so noted.

You just don't like science, and thats okay. It's not required to get to heaven anyway.

FIRST --- Where in the WORD does it SAY that you or anyone else, shall "get to heaven"?


SECOND --- There are NO WORKS which are done by man, which can SAVE him -- Eph 2:8-9 -- therefore, there are ... NO REQUIREMENTS... which ANY MAN FULFILLS, that ENABLE SALVATION to be his/hers.

EVERY FACET of SALVATION... is solely the WORK of GOD -- Eph 1:11 -- and His CHRIST --- PERIOD!



THIRD --- Where did I SAY that I did not "like science"? And btw, when will you cease trying to put words in my mouth which ...I... did not express?

I happen to appreaciate science VERY MUCH... as I had CANCER surgery 3 years ago, and currently, am being further treated FOR it, via the PROVEN abilities of "science"...

What I am against (if anything), is "science" making claims that are UNPROVEN SPECULATIONS, ...and then proceed to deal them out to the world under the guise that they are FACTUAL.


Peace...


...willieH

 

[he-man]

Mmmm.... I beg to differ! Your words are in conflict with those of JESUS CHRIST: John 12:31 -- "NOW, ...IS ...the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD... NOW shall the prince of THIS WORLD be cast out". PEACE... ...willieH

The judgement of this world is shown to be the wrath when they hung Jesus on a tree and cast him out of this world and has nothing to do with the present, except for those who teach wrongfully about a scripture.

The Judgement will come when Christ returns to earth.
Psa 110:5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.

6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.

Isa 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

 

[createdtoworship]

Hi Gradyll,
You also have to look at what broad scripture is teaching. Look at what Peter had to say on the day of Pentecost. He was clear that Jesus was risen and specifically mentioned that David had not ascended to heaven. Why do you think he mentions that?

Acts 2:29-34

New International Version (NIV)


29 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven,

talking about a physical ascension, like Christ did...

"And as Christ died, so he rose again, according to the scriptures; and that he did so we are witnesses. (3.) Here is a glance at his ascension too. As David did not rise from the dead, so neither did he ascend into the heavens, bodily, as Christ did,"

Henry, Matthew: Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible : Complete and Unabridged in One Volume. Peabody : Hendrickson, 1996, c1991, S. Ac 2:14

Not talking about the soul going to heaven

"He intreateth not in this place of the soul of David, whether it were received into blessed rest, and the heavenly dwelling or no; but the ascending into heaven comprehendeth under it those things which Paul teacheth in the Epistle to the Ephesians, (Ephesians 4:9&#65279, where he placeth Christ above all heavens, that he may fulfill all things"

Calvin, John: Calvin's Commentaries: Acts. electronic ed. Albany, OR : Ages Software, 1998 (Logos Library System; Calvin's Commentaries), S. Ac 2:34