Let's Talk About Hell (3)

[createdtoworship]

I went to great pains to write a separate post defining the difference between catholicism with a small "c" and Catholic. However, since you missed it, catholicism is not large "C" Catholic, which is a specific faith or denomination. Small "c" catholicism is a movement that started in second century Christianity that sought to combine the myriad forms of developing Christianity under one flag and a self serving leadership. To do so, they had no qualms about forging new scriptures or altering others, and working extremely hard to ruin the reputations of people they disagreed with by exaggeration and falsehoods. They are a particularly unsavory lot that included Ireneus and Tertullian, until Tertullian jumped ship and joined the Montanist.

Among their dastardly deeds, they wrote Timothy in opposition to Marcion's "Antithesis" (O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and Contradictions [antithesis] of gnosis falsely so called.) and signed Paul's name to it, in the hope of converting some of the tens of thousands of Marcionites, who had a bible of Paul's real letters, over to their sect.

Worse, as I don't particularly care for Marcion either, was their flagrant violation of the teachings of Paul, who included many women preachers and ministers as his friends, by including with their lies "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.", something that Paul would have cursed them for.

By craftiness and guile, they managed to become politically situated to be the dominant Christian school when Constantine officially lifted the ban on Christianity in the fourth century.

sounds like a good church to me. Defending against heresy.

 

[Soulgazer]

sounds like a good church to me. Defending against heresy.

Somehow I don't doubt that.

 

[Timothew]

How does a person defend against heresy? By believing whatever the church leaders tell them? Or by studying the scriptures to find out what is true?

The church leaders say that sin results in eternal torment in hell. However the bible says that the wages of sin is death.

 

[Soulgazer]

How does a person defend against heresy? By believing whatever the church leaders tell them? Or by studying the scriptures to find out what is true?

The church leaders say that sin results in eternal torment in hell. However the bible says that the wages of sin is death.

You can't. That's the insidiousness of the charge. Faith can neither be proven nor disproved. Just remember the "Heresy hunters" killed Christ to begin with. Children of the devil, every last hard hearted mother's son of them. When one heals, and the other kills, you will know which one to follow.

. [SIZE=-1]9:38[/SIZE]John said unto him, Teacher, we saw one casting out demons in thy name; and we forbade him, because he followed not us. [SIZE=-1]9:39[/SIZE]But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man who shall do a mighty work in my name, and be able quickly to speak evil of me. [SIZE=-1]9:40[/SIZE]For he that is not against us is for us.

According to this verse, the "Heresy Hunters" are disobedient to Christ to begin with. If there is a hell, it will be full of them.

"And still others of them who suffer think that they will perfect the wisdom of the brotherhood which really exists, which is the spiritual fellowship of those united in communion, through which the wedding of incorruptibility shall be revealed. The kindred race of the sisterhood will appear as an imitation. These are the ones who oppress their brothers, saying to them, "Through this our God has pity, since salvation comes to us through this," not knowing the punishment of those who are made glad by those who have done this thing to the little ones whom they saw, (and) whom they took prisoner." ~Gnostic Peter

Luke 6:43 "For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit.

 

[Ed Bana]

Timothew

You have a couple lies and half truth here that I do not think you see. For one thing I agree with you. Why would anyone want to believe in what some long dead church leader tell them?

It is the Spirit of truth that is suppose to lead and guide us into all truth.

There are a lot of lies in scripture and this is God's will because God wants us to believe him not the religious realm.

2Th 2:11
(ALT) And for this reason God will send to them a supernatural working of deception, for them to believe the lie,

What is death?

“And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall [FONT=Times New Roman,Italic]flee from them” [/FONT](Rev. 9:6).

Explain this verse???

There are a lot of hidden things in God's Word about what death is when it comes to the realm of God who has curse all born of Adam to die.

How does a person defend against heresy? By believing whatever the church leaders tell them? Or by studying the scriptures to find out what is true?

The church leaders say that sin results in eternal torment in hell. However the bible says that the wages of sin is death.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

If Revealations is speaking of people not being able to find death, why would it explicitly point out that the lake of fire is the second death?

 

[StormHawk]

If Revealations is speaking of people not being able to find death, why would it explicitly point out that the lake of fire is the second death?

That's from Rev. 9:6. To get the context, v5 says:

"And to them it was given that they should not kill them ..."

The creed of the Muslim Arabs was not to destroy the "infidels" of the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire and plunder the wealth of the cities, but to convert them to believe in Allah and His Prophet.

v6 indicates that many were too afraid to die, their faithw as not that strong. They chose instead to suffer.

The lake of fire (chapter 19, 20, 21) refers to the utter destruction of all that reject Jesus.

 

[Ed Bana]

This has nothing to do with Muslim's this verses is highly spiritual for it is written in the most spiritual book ever written. What context?

That's from Rev. 9:6. To get the context, v5 says:

"And to them it was given that they should not kill them ..."

The creed of the Muslim Arabs was not to destroy the "infidels" of the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire and plunder the wealth of the cities, but to convert them to believe in Allah and His Prophet.

v6 indicates that many were too afraid to die, their faithw as not that strong. They chose instead to suffer.

The lake of fire (chapter 19, 20, 21) refers to the utter destruction of all that reject Jesus.

 

[createdtoworship]

If Revealations is speaking of people not being able to find death, why would it explicitly point out that the lake of fire is the second death?

if annihilation was a legitimate option there would not be a need for a second death only a first.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
revelation 20:14

 

[StormHawk]

This has nothing to do with Muslim's this verses is highly spiritual for it is written in the most spiritual book ever written. What context?

Then please explain the verses!
Saying they are "highly spiritual" teaches nothing!

 

[Ed Bana]

It is not I who declares The Book of Revelation is spiritual. It was John who was in Spirit on the Lord's day. No where did John say he was being literal/carnal in any sense of the Word.


“And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them”

(Rev. 9:6).

Most don’t understand Rev 9:6, but they look at it literally and conclude that for some strange reason God will temporarily make men unable to die. Even should you run over them with a Mack truck, shoot them through with an Uzi, poison them, or slit their throats — they can’t die!

But the book of Revelation is a spiritual book!

It speaks of spiritual realities!

This desire for death is the result of the horrible “stings” of the scorpion-tailed locusts!

The effect of the torment (testing) is that the subjects of it become weary of their lives, desire to die, but death flees from them. Death is the only relief from the agony, but nothing they are doing can produce it in them.

These people aren’t seeking physical death, they want to die spiritually!

They seek to die to self!

They want their old man to be put to death!
They want their carnal mind to be removed!
They want their flesh nature to be slain within themselves!
They want old Adam to be beheaded, decapitated!

For the symbolic period of five months they seek death and cannot find it. They want to die, they,re seeking death, They’re trying to die, they’re even trying by will-power and self-effort to commit suicide, to kill themselves, they believe that this death is what will release the life in them. But they can’t die!

Then please explain the verses!
Saying they are "highly spiritual" teaches nothing!

 

[underheaven]

If you believe in reincarnation as the Jews do, then this is not an issue. We've all been around for a very long time and have had plenty of time to learn our lesson.

I am a R.Catholic [Irish background]and I do too.
We must have been .It is logical too, since Creation happened
millions of earth years ago.
But that is comes to an end after we have the chance to be saved,
by Jesus,when we will be judgedat the end of the 'time' ordained.

 

[underheaven]

Alright, I apologize. But you must understand that when I say that your arguments are materialist and reductionist that to my mind means atheistic, because atheists rely so heavily on materialistic and reductionistic arguments. I'm not saying that you are an atheist, but rather that you use some arguments that run parallel to the arguments atheists. In the future I will not use the word atheistic, but when I say that your arguments are materialist and reductionist, you will know what I mean. (Do you understand what reductionist means?)

Only the other occurances of nephesh do not count, I took into account many other uses of the word psyche. My list of verses where psyche clearly can't be interpreted as 'life' was rather long. It is you who have come to an exclusive view about the interpretation of nephesh then try to apply this to psyche in a way that clearly falls apart. Nephesh is confusing so it is easy for you to pick out the meaning you want and run with it, but psyche is not so confusing, it is much more focused, and your argument clearly falls apart when applied to psyche, which in turn strongly suggests that your interpretation of nephesh is also wrong.

I was raised Lutheran. I'm not sure what I am now, but I tend to be orthodox in my theology, so Lutheran fits me as well as any denomination.

I already know how easy it is to misinterpret nephesh, because I have seen it done here on ChristianForums so often. This psychologist seems to have a similarly materialistic reductionistic point of view, but it is hard to tell because he rambles on quite a bit. But the beginning starts out with a pet peeve of mine. It really gets on my nerves the way people rail against the supposed Greek influence in orthodox theology and that their understanding is so much clearer than orthodox tradition. As if Jesus set people on the wrong foot. If orthodox theology is wrong then the truth is lost and hopelessly impossible to find again. As far as I am concerned it is either orthodoxy or nothing. If the orthodox tradition can't be trusted then how much less trustworthy is the opinion of modern scholars who clearly aren't under the influence of the Holy Spirit the way the writers of the Bible were?

One thing I just noticed, in the transition between the OT and the NT the part associated with the breath of life is swapped. In the OT ruach is the breath of life but in the NT psyche is the breath of life. Here is the first entry for the definition of each word in Strong's lexicon:

psychē -
1) breath
a) the breath of life
1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing
a) of animals
b) of men
b) life
c) that in which there is life
1) a living being, a living soul


ruwach -
1) wind, breath, mind, spirit
a) breath
b) wind
1) of heaven
2) quarter (of wind), side
3) breath of air
4) air, gas
5) vain, empty thing

How do you know they are not 'under' the Holy Spirit,these scholars.
think that the Holy Spirit works in all times,in all places. Time has no meaning to the Trinity

 

[Ed Bana]

Underheaven,

You as a Roman Catholic what makes something true to you?

You say you believe in the Holy Spirit but how can the Holy Spirit lead and guide you into all truth if you are blindly folloing the Pope?

I believe you are a believer you are missing out on sooo much God has to ofter by following religion.

How do you know they are not 'under' the Holy Spirit,these scholars.
think that the Holy Spirit works in all times,in all places. Time has no meaning to the Trinity

 

[LutheranMafia]

In the Greek, the words used here for "torment" and "tormented" are basanizo and basanismo which are both derived from the word basanos. Basanos is what is commonly known in English as the "touchstone." Its proper usage in olden times was to try the genuineness of gold. The pure gold rubbed on the stone would leave a peculiar mark, different to that of other metals or alloys. Therefore it acquired a symbolic significance: a test or criterion for determining the quality or the genuineness of a thing; to test for purity or truth. Therefore, you see, when we are "tormented" by the locusts, we are having our genuineness and quality tested — for if we are being tormented by the locusts it should clearly reveal to us that we are NOT WALKING IN THE TRUTH, NOR IN THE MIND OF CHRIST, NOR IN OUR TRUE IDENTITY AS SONS OF OUR HEAVENLY FATHER! That is the test, and the truth of what mind, word, and identity we are walking in is made manifest by the "sting" of the locusts! They cannot sting one who has the seal of God in his forehead!

I am always intrigued when people go back to the original Greek or Hebrew. Strong's lexicon does indeed refer to the touchstone as the first definition of each of these interrelated words.

But I found a contradiction to your interpretation. In Revelation 12:2 the mother of the "ruler with an iron rod" / the lamb, is in pain (basanizō), so good people can be tormented too. Although most of the time it is evil people being tormented.

 

[Ed Bana]

Thank you for being a Bereaian…

Acts 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. (KJV)

Of course the torment goes to the wicked. God needs to test them and try them by his spiritual fire.
　　　　　　　　　　　
“Because thou sayest, I am rich and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich” (Rev. 3:17-18).
　　　　　　　　　　　
“Buy of me gold” means to pay the price for the divine nature of our Father to be brought forth in our lives! 　 “Tried in the fire” means that His nature has become an experiential reality within us.　 It speaks of an intimate, direct encounter with God that causes all that is contrary to His nature to be consumed by the all-consuming fire of His Spirit, resulting in our spiritual growth and maturity in Christ.　 Our Lord has called upon His elect to buy of Him this gold tried in the fire, that we may be rich! 　 Now we know what the true riches are!　 The riches of which He speaks are not the riches of the world, either of money, material things, or of stature, position, fame, or self-glory.　 The riches of this world corrupt the spiritual man and prevent a manifestation of the true Life of God.　 The gold that we are to buy of Him represents a life that has been tried and tested, even as gold is refined, to bring forth the qualities of the Christ life within all who are His called and chosen ones.

I believe all of God’s people need to be tested “I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich””

That is why we are here.

I am always intrigued when people go back to the original Greek or Hebrew. Strong's lexicon does indeed refer to the touchstone as the first definition of each of these interrelated words.

But I found a contradiction to your interpretation. In Revelation 12:2 the mother of the "ruler with an iron rod" / the lamb, is in pain (basanizō), so good people can be tormented too. Although most of the time it is evil people being tormented.

 

[LutheranMafia]

How do you know they are not 'under' the Holy Spirit,these scholars.
think that the Holy Spirit works in all times,in all places. Time has no meaning to the Trinity

I was just pointing out that part of the definition of the words soul and spirit appear to have been swapped between the Old Testament and the New Testament. I didn't say they weren't under the Holy Spirit. It adds somewhat to the confusion, but the subject is inherently a confusing one, as pointed out by Hebrews 4:12. The problem of going from one language to another, such as Hebrew too Greek, can introduce issues like this where things are hard to translate and there is no perfect answer in translation.

 

[Ed Bana]

Amen..

The real problem with words like eternal everlasting and for ever and ever is the Babylonian religious system that refuse to look outside of their man made religious box. The seminaries keep puppeting the same old doctrines of damnations generation after generation. Occasionally you will find a Bible scholar willing to agree with the following. A careful study of the Greek word “aionios” (translated as “eternal,” “everlasting,” and “forever and ever” in our English translations) shows that it comes from the Greek noun “aion” which always means “an indeterminate period of time.”　 It is a most unfortunate thing that the translators of old chose to translate “aionios” from the Latin language rather than the Greek from which the word is derived.　 God’s punishment will not last forever as is commonly taught, but will only last for the ages and only UNTIL God’s purpose for it is complete.　
Eternal, eternity, etc. is not actually found in Scripture though in some aspects applied through inference of propositions. The problem is that the Greek words which were translated to "eternal" actually do not translate properly in English because there is no word in English which translates it properly. In this case, the word is "AIONIOS" and it is a descriptive adjective which just means "of, or in, or belonging to, or coming from, or resmbling, or befitting the AION.

AION is a noun meaning, "A period of time, or perpetuity of time, or definitive age, or unbroken age." It simply means an age with unknown measure which can be indefinitive or definitive.

So literally the word "AIONIOS" being translated as "Eternal" would more accurately be defined as "agely"; however since "agely" is not a real word, that leaves the English language without a literal translation for the word "AIONIOS".

So anytime you saw Jesus say "Eternal" this and "Eternal" that, he didn't say "perpetuality of time" but rather an indeterminate duration that is neither perpetual or definifitive.

　

I was just pointing out that part of the definition of the words soul and spirit appear to have been swapped between the Old Testament and the New Testament. I didn't say they weren't under the Holy Spirit. It adds somewhat to the confusion, but the subject is inherently a confusing one, as pointed out by Hebrews 4:12. The problem of going from one language to another, such as Hebrew too Greek, can introduce issues like this where things are hard to translate and there is no perfect answer in translation.

 

[Soulgazer]

Amen..

The real problem with words like eternal everlasting and for ever and ever is the Babylonian religious system that refuse to look outside of their man made religious box. The seminaries keep puppeting the same old doctrines of damnations generation after generation. Occasionally you will find a Bible scholar willing to agree with the following. A careful study of the Greek word “aionios” (translated as “eternal,” “everlasting,” and “forever and ever” in our English translations) shows that it comes from the Greek noun “aion” which always means “an indeterminate period of time.”　 It is a most unfortunate thing that the translators of old chose to translate “aionios” from the Latin language rather than the Greek from which the word is derived.　 God’s punishment will not last forever as is commonly taught, but will only last for the ages and only UNTIL God’s purpose for it is complete.　
Eternal, eternity, etc. is not actually found in Scripture though in some aspects applied through inference of propositions. The problem is that the Greek words which were translated to "eternal" actually do not translate properly in English because there is no word in English which translates it properly. In this case, the word is "AIONIOS" and it is a descriptive adjective which just means "of, or in, or belonging to, or coming from, or resmbling, or befitting the AION.

AION is a noun meaning, "A period of time, or perpetuity of time, or definitive age, or unbroken age." It simply means an age with unknown measure which can be indefinitive or definitive.

So literally the word "AIONIOS" being translated as "Eternal" would more accurately be defined as "agely"; however since "agely" is not a real word, that leaves the English language without a literal translation for the word "AIONIOS".

So anytime you saw Jesus say "Eternal" this and "Eternal" that, he didn't say "perpetuality of time" but rather an indeterminate duration that is neither perpetual or definifitive.

　

This is absolutely correct; to add further to the confusion, an "Aion" or "Aeon" is not just a period of time, but usually has either intelligence or attribute of force attached to it; to wit: "They all are at rest in him, ever rejoicing in ineffable joy in his unchanging glory and measureless jubilation; this was never heard or known among all the aeons and their worlds until now." ~Sophia of Jesus

 

[LutheranMafia]

I thought aionios is the plural of aion. There are plenty of instances where aionios refers to Jesus rather than the fate of evil people.

because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood.
Hebrews 7:24
​

And it is the singular of aion here.

Sometimes there is context, such as in Luke 1:33. once again in the singular of aion:

and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”
Luke 1:33
​

And sometimes aion appears twice in a row: eons of eons.

Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Revelation 5:13

Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever.
Revelation 7:12

The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Revelation 11:15

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever
Revelation 14:11
​

Note how all except the last verse speaks about Christ rather than the eternal fate of evil people.