Let's Talk About Hell (3)

[StormHawk]

...the story of Lazarus and the rich man.

...

The death of the wicked is liked to the burning of tares, i.e. fast.
"Destroy", "kill the soul", perish (John 3:16) etc all teach a cessation of existance.

Eternal torment is an old pagan idea requiring the immortality of the human soul, whichj only God can give to those that seek it.

The parable you quote is a kingdom parable, an accurate prophecy of what would happen to the 10-tribed "House of Israel ("Lazarus") and the 2-tribed House of Judah ("the Rich man") in the New Testament era.

Abraham's bosom is the Abrahamic Covenant.

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
- the house of Judah which enjoyed all God's blessings and the full ministry of the temple in Jerusalem

And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
- the northern "House of Israel", separated since after the split, fallen into idolatry

And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
- and taken captive by the gentiles who treated them better than Judah did


And it came to pass, that the beggar died
- the dispersion of the northern 10 tribes after being taken away by the Assyrians, the marred pot that is re-made - Jer. 18:3-6

and was carried by the angels
- "on eagles wings" - Ex. 19:4, Rev. 12:4

into Abraham's bosom:
- becoming a "great nation" - USA, and a "company of nations" - the British Commonwealth - Gen.18:18, 2 Sam. 7:10 (further info.)

the rich man also died,
- destruction of the Jewish nation, AD70

and was buried;
- perpetually broken as a shattered pot - Jer. 19:11

And in hell (hades - national death) he lift up his eyes, being in torments,
- persecution of Jews that reject the Messiah, Jer 24:9-10

and seeth Abraham afar off,
- the fulfilment of the Abrahamic Covenant

and Lazarus in his bosom
- enjoying the blessings

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus,
- the Jews today pray for the restitution of the lost 10 tribes to Israel, thinking this will be their deliverance.

that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
- stuck in the fore-shadows, seeking drops of mercy instead of the river of blessings that Jesus offers

But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things,
- having "obtained mercy" - Hosea 1:7, they benefited from promises given to Abraham, but Abraham saw Jesus day and was glad, they have experienced Jesus ministry but didn't appreciate it!

and likewise Lazarus evil things:
- having "not obtained mercy" - Hosea 1:6

but now he is comforted, (Hosea 2:23) and thou art tormented.
And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed:
so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
- the new Covenant which most Jews, especially the rich and powerful did not accept

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren
- Judah had 5 brethren by Leah - Gen.35:23

that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
- Jesus and the apostles showed that many Jews didn't even hear the
scriptures they claimed to believe in, so they reject their fulfilment

 

[Soulgazer]

Who knows Greek?

If we don't, we should learn.


____
gadesa: "Hell is not eternal because humanity does not inherently have eternal life".

Maybe you are reading this in hell?

Whatever has a beginning has a end.
Whatever does not have a beginning, is forever.

Peace be to all of you.

I have friends from Greece. If I had any gift for languages what so ever, that is one I would like to learn. I know a smattering of canadian french, and just enough spanish to get my face slapped

 

[createdtoworship]

The death of the wicked is liked to the burning of tares, i.e. fast.
"Destroy", "kill the soul", perish (John 3:16) etc all teach a cessation of existance.

Eternal torment is an old pagan idea requiring the immortality of the human soul, whichj only God can give to those that seek it.

The parable you quote is a kingdom parable, an accurate prophecy of what would happen to the 10-tribed "House of Israel ("Lazarus") and the 2-tribed House of Judah ("the Rich man") in the New Testament era.

Abraham's bosom is the Abrahamic Covenant.

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
- the house of Judah which enjoyed all God's blessings and the full ministry of the temple in Jerusalem

And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
- the northern "House of Israel", separated since after the split, fallen into idolatry

And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
- and taken captive by the gentiles who treated them better than Judah did


And it came to pass, that the beggar died
- the dispersion of the northern 10 tribes after being taken away by the Assyrians, the marred pot that is re-made - Jer. 18:3-6

and was carried by the angels
- "on eagles wings" - Ex. 19:4, Rev. 12:4

into Abraham's bosom:
- becoming a "great nation" - USA, and a "company of nations" - the British Commonwealth - Gen.18:18, 2 Sam. 7:10 (further info.)

the rich man also died,
- destruction of the Jewish nation, AD70

and was buried;
- perpetually broken as a shattered pot - Jer. 19:11

And in hell (hades - national death) he lift up his eyes, being in torments,
- persecution of Jews that reject the Messiah, Jer 24:9-10

and seeth Abraham afar off,
- the fulfilment of the Abrahamic Covenant

and Lazarus in his bosom
- enjoying the blessings

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus,
- the Jews today pray for the restitution of the lost 10 tribes to Israel, thinking this will be their deliverance.

that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
- stuck in the fore-shadows, seeking drops of mercy instead of the river of blessings that Jesus offers

But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things,
- having "obtained mercy" - Hosea 1:7, they benefited from promises given to Abraham, but Abraham saw Jesus day and was glad, they have experienced Jesus ministry but didn't appreciate it!

and likewise Lazarus evil things:
- having "not obtained mercy" - Hosea 1:6

but now he is comforted, (Hosea 2:23) and thou art tormented.
And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed:
so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
- the new Covenant which most Jews, especially the rich and powerful did not accept

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren
- Judah had 5 brethren by Leah - Gen.35:23

that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
- Jesus and the apostles showed that many Jews didn't even hear the
scriptures they claimed to believe in, so they reject their fulfilment

thats eisegesis not exegesis, putting your opinion into the text, not the other way around.


God said abrahams bosom not the abrahamic covenant. I could do this with everything you said. That is a pretty good point to argue.

 

[createdtoworship]

Hell is not eternal because humanity does not inherently have eternal life.

ROMANS 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.
1) The wages for sin is shown to be death, and eternal life is stated to be a gift from God, not something people already have. This is consistently expressed from Genesis to Revelation
MATTHEW 7:13-14
“Enter through the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad the road that leads to destruction and many enter through it, (14) but small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”
destruction= the condition of being destroyed; demolition; annihilation.

the broad way leads to destruction, one cannot be living forever and then said to be destroyed

JOHN 3:16
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Perish=to suffer destruction or ruin
As we can see by the verse on top if one does not believe in the Son in no way will he have eternal life

GALATIONS 6:8
The one who sows to please the sinful nature from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the spirit, from the spirit will reap eternal life.
MATTHEW 10:28
“Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One (God) who can destroy both soul and body in hell.[4]”

the passage on top is say that people (satan) can destroy the body ,but God will destroy both the body and the soul in the lake of fire.Now it can't be plainer than that, the wicked will not have immortality

JAMES 4:12
There is only one lawgiver and judge, the One (God) who is able to save and destroy.

HEBREWS 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.

2Peter 2:6
If he (God) condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

We know Peter is specifically referring here to what will happen to the ungodly on judgment day when they’re thrown into the lake of fire (the second death) because this will be the only time that all the ungodly will experience a fate comparable to the judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah. If the incineration of Sodom and Gomorrah is a true, trustworthy example of what will happen to the ungodly when they suffer the second death, then we must conclude that the ungodly will, in fact, be incinerated;

As we all know Soddom is not still burning right now

2PETER 3:7
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgement and destruction (apoleia) of ungodly men.

The day of judgment is the day when ungodly people will suffer everlasting destruction. This is their “eternal punishment” as God destroys “both soul and body in hell”

MATTHEW 13:24-30

Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed seed in his field. (25) But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. (26) When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
(27) The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’
(28) ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.
The servants asked him, ‘do you want us to go and pull them up?’
(29) ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. (30) Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’ ”

PSALM 37:20
But the wicked will perish: The LORD’s enemies will be like the beauty of the fields, they will vanish – vanish like smoke.

MALACHI 4:1-3,5
“Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and that day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the LORD Almighty. “Not a root or branch will be left to them. (2) But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will arise with healing in its wings. And you will go out and leap like calves released from the stall. (3) Then you will trample down the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I do these things,” says the LORD Almighty.
(5) “See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before the great and dreadful day of the LORD comes.”

the wicked will be ashes under the feet of the righteous in the new Jerusalem.So we can see the idea of an everlasting torment is not Biblical at all.The lake fire will consume the wicked and will be an everlasting punishment because it will eradicate every trace of sin fro God's universe.

at least your accurate about your opinion that you don't have eternal life. Most don't acknowledge that .

 

[createdtoworship]

How many languages do you speak?

scholars speak a bunch of languages, I am not a scholar. Nor are you. So just get to the point. please.

catholic, orthodox, anglican, methodist, anabaptist, baptist, pentecostal all believe in eternal torment only two of the churches in study rejected eternal hell and three refused to comment on the duration of hell. - Denominations comparison chart by rose publishing.

 

[Soulgazer]

scholars speak a bunch of languages, I am not a scholar. Nor are you. So just get to the point. please.

catholic, orthodox, anglican, methodist, anabaptist, baptist, pentecostal all believe in eternal torment only two of the churches in study rejected eternal hell and three refused to comment on the duration of hell. - Denominations comparison chart by rose publishing.

I don't pretend to be a scholar, but I am friends with quite a few, and am still sought for my opinion here and there. Be kind, you never know when you will be mentioned on a radio show.


I can speak a little of a couple of languages. They don't always translate word for word, nor even always idea for idea, except for simple things like nouns, and basic needs. More complex ideas don't translate at all, which is why ambassadors are kept so busy.

Bible translators are forced by convention to pick only one word that best fits, and sometimes that word is picked by tradition. Take the word "anathema". It has been translated to mean "accursed" since the eighth century, when it actually meant "unavailable, set aside as a sacrifice to a god". The tradition of it meaning "accursed" became so set, that in Greek, it now also means "accursed".

Translators who work for a church, are usually of the religious persuasion of that church. They would be fired, if indeed, it even entered into their catholic, orthodox, anglican, methodist, anabaptist, baptist, pentecostal minds, to translate a line of verse in direct contradiction of what the church tradition says the line means.

Greek words carry a multiplicity of meanings, sometimes simultaneously.

 

[StormHawk]

thats eisegesis not exegesis, putting your opinion into the text, not the other way around.

That's an unjustified accusation, you need to prove your point, if you have one.

 

[Timothew]

Who knows Greek?

If we don't, we should learn.

Peace be to all of you.

I agree, more people should make the effort to learn greek, if they are serious about bible study.

εἰρήνη, ἀδελφέ.
Peace, Brother.

 

[Ed Bana]

Well seeing they deleted a bunch of my post in the orthodox part of this forum I figured I might as well join the heathen in the unorthodox forum.

Let me start with some scriptural facts. Hell is religious man made lie mistranslated into the Bible and the Lake of fire is spiritual.

 

[Ed Bana]

I agree, more people should make the effort to learn greek, if they are serious about bible study.

εἰρήνη, ἀδελφέ.
Peace, Brother.

Greek is awesome to learn bit it is not the answer. It really helps but how many Greek Scholars have no clue?

Take the baby goat in the passage of Matthew 25
Can you dig deep enough to see something does not add up?
Well I dug deep and this is what I came up with:
Here Jesus is going to torture a Baby goat forever and ever by why?
What the Baby goat do?

Why didn't all these Greek Scholars notice that the goat is a kid? A baby goat?

 

[Soulgazer]

Well seeing they deleted a bunch of my post in the orthodox part of this forum I figured I might as well join the heathen in the unorthodox forum.

Let me start with some scriptural facts. Hell is religious man made lie mistranslated into the Bible and the Lake of fire is spiritual.

Pretty much of all the more orthodox doctrines are falsehoods based on falsehoods. Even the Bible itself was only declared infallible after it had been tampered with to the point where you need a doctorate in Mediterranean theologies and religions to separate out who actually said what and why.

Nearly everything written in the Bible is actually written in reaction to something else in the Bible, and then mollified by a later redactor, to try and emphasize some small point of agreement.

I.E. Matthew is heavily dependent on Mark, however it was also composed in the Antioch region circa 85AD. Antioch was HQ for Paul circa 55AD. Paul wrote that Christ replaced the Torah. The writer of Matthew disagreed, implying that Paul would be counted "least in heaven".

Luke is a modification of "The Gospel of the Lord", (The very same Gospel that Marcion leaned on), with some verses added to "prove" the Virgin birth.

II Corinthians is a genuine Pauline rant against those Jewish Christians who insisted on retaining and reading the Torah, redacted by a later catholic by adding some Old Testament references to pull the teeth from Paul.

Both "Heaven" and "Hell" are introduced into Christianity as a result of the Hellenization of Judaism around 150-200 BC. Everlasting life was an unknown concept in Temple Judaism.

The Pharisee were not in charge. This is another historical fallacy. The Sadducee were the governing body, who were also in charge of the scriptures and the overseeing of the temple.

These are things that every Christian should know and value as true and part of their culture and heritage; however, people who would give more credence to a stone age medicine man than modern science on creation are also allowed to call themselves Christians.

There was a householder who had every conceivable thing, be it son or slave or cattle or dog or pig or corn or barley or chaff or grass or [...] or meat and acorn. Now he was a sensible fellow, and he knew what the food of each one was. He served the children bread [...]. He served the slaves [...] and meal. And he threw barley and chaff and grass to the cattle. He threw bones to the dogs, and to the pigs he threw acorns and slop. Compare the disciple of God: if he is a sensible fellow, he understands what discipleship is all about. The bodily forms will not deceive him, but he will look at the condition of the soul of each one and speak with him. There are many animals in the world which are in a human form. When he identifies them, to the swine he will throw acorns, to the cattle he will throw barley and chaff and grass, to the dogs he will throw bones. To the slaves he will give only the elementary lessons, to the children he will give the complete instruction.

Gospel of Philip

 

[createdtoworship]

I don't pretend to be a scholar, but I am friends with quite a few, and am still sought for my opinion here and there. Be kind, you never know when you will be mentioned on a radio show.


I can speak a little of a couple of languages. They don't always translate word for word, nor even always idea for idea, except for simple things like nouns, and basic needs. More complex ideas don't translate at all, which is why ambassadors are kept so busy.

Bible translators are forced by convention to pick only one word that best fits, and sometimes that word is picked by tradition. Take the word "anathema". It has been translated to mean "accursed" since the eighth century, when it actually meant "unavailable, set aside as a sacrifice to a god". The tradition of it meaning "accursed" became so set, that in Greek, it now also means "accursed".

Translators who work for a church, are usually of the religious persuasion of that church. They would be fired, if indeed, it even entered into their catholic, orthodox, anglican, methodist, anabaptist, baptist, pentecostal minds, to translate a line of verse in direct contradiction of what the church tradition says the line means.

Greek words carry a multiplicity of meanings, sometimes simultaneously.

the point being they are the professionals not you or me.

here is a link on the early scribal accuracy.

http://www.squidoo.com/torahscrolls

they could be biased too but they are not.

besides even if they were biased, how do you know they were not biased in favor of your position not mine? Evidence against one is evidence for the other.

 

[Ed Bana]

Amen. I am sure much of this is true. But there is a deepness in the Word of God if seen by spiritual eyes will asend all of religous carnal man's bias hogwash.

Pretty much of all the more orthodox doctrines are falsehoods based on falsehoods. Even the Bible itself was only declared infallible after it had been tampered with to the point where you need a doctorate in Mediterranean theologies and religions to separate out who actually said what and why.

Nearly everything written in the Bible is actually written in reaction to something else in the Bible, and then mollified by a later redactor, to try and emphasize some small point of agreement.

I.E. Matthew is heavily dependent on Mark, however it was also composed in the Antioch region circa 85AD. Antioch was HQ for Paul circa 55AD. Paul wrote that Christ replaced the Torah. The writer of Matthew disagreed, implying that Paul would be counted "least in heaven".

Luke is a modification of "The Gospel of the Lord", (The very same Gospel that Marcion leaned on), with some verses added to "prove" the Virgin birth.

II Corinthians is a genuine Pauline rant against those Jewish Christians who insisted on retaining and reading the Torah, redacted by a later catholic by adding some Old Testament references to pull the teeth from Paul.

Both "Heaven" and "Hell" are introduced into Christianity as a result of the Hellenization of Judaism around 150-200 BC. Everlasting life was an unknown concept in Temple Judaism.

The Pharisee were not in charge. This is another historical fallacy. The Sadducee were the governing body, who were also in charge of the scriptures and the overseeing of the temple.

These are things that every Christian should know and value as true and part of their culture and heritage; however, people who would give more credence to a stone age medicine man than modern science on creation are also allowed to call themselves Christians.

Gospel of Philip

 

[Soulgazer]

the point being they are the professionals not you or me.

here is a link on the early scribal accuracy.

Accuracy of the Bible - TORAH Scrolls - The Five Books of Moses

they could be biased too but they are not.

besides even if they were biased, how do you know they were not biased in favor of your position not mine? Evidence against one is evidence for the other.

They are absolutely biased, and the message that the Torah has remained inviolate has already been proven false. There are variations of the Torah present in the Q'umran digs. One of the oldest books in the Torah is Deuteronomy, and that wasn't completed until nearly the fourth century BC.


Those are all comments by Rabbi's in the Post Christian age, representing modern Judaism, which replaced Temple Judaism, which died in the year 70AD. Temple Judaism believed that God lived in a building, specifically the Temple in Jerusalem. Judaism would have you believe the Torah has not changed, because they don't believe in (early)Christianity, which was based originally on the premise that the Torah was fallible, and that no one could get to the Father except through the Son. Obviously, if the Torah was sufficient and accurate, this cast doubts on that premise. In point of fact, Judaism would even have you believe that Judaism hasn't changed, even though they no longer bring disobedient children to the city gates to be stoned to death.

Dig through the non and pre-catholic writings that were predominant in the era prior to the third century, and you will find multiple writings that emphasize the stance that the God described in the old Testament is not the God that Jesus introduced to the world.

Obviously, that doctrine has changed over the centuries, and modern Christians no longer look on the Torah as an example of what not to believe, but from almost the very beginnings of Christianity, this was not so.

Also, I was a professional, though I am now retired. My church was dedicated to the spirit of Truth, which meant that I and my successors never stop digging. We have shared the floor with university Doctorates, been challenged, corrected, and on rare occasions, vindicated, for years now. I highlighted "spirit", because a "spirit" indicates something living and growing. That's exactly what truth is, ever unfolding.

 

[Soulgazer]

Amen. I am sure much of this is true. But there is a deepness in the Word of God if seen by spiritual eyes will asend all of religous carnal man's bias hogwash.

I have no problem with anybody believing anything they wish as long as they don't turn themselves into liars. I believe in the bible, even though I know most of it is unlikely. I believe in Santa Claus, even though I know he exists only in the spirit of giving. It's when people start arguing over the color and composition of the harness on the sleigh that I roll my eyes.

 

[createdtoworship]

They are absolutely biased, and the message that the Torah has remained inviolate has already been proven false. There are variations of the Torah present in the Q'umran digs. One of the oldest books in the Torah is Deuteronomy, and that wasn't completed until nearly the fourth century BC.


Those are all comments by Rabbi's in the Post Christian age, representing modern Judaism, which replaced Temple Judaism, which died in the year 70AD. Temple Judaism believed that God lived in a building, specifically the Temple in Jerusalem. Judaism would have you believe the Torah has not changed, because they don't believe in (early)Christianity, which was based originally on the premise that the Torah was fallible, and that no one could get to the Father except through the Son. Obviously, if the Torah was sufficient and accurate, this cast doubts on that premise. In point of fact, Judaism would even have you believe that Judaism hasn't changed, even though they no longer bring disobedient children to the city gates to be stoned to death.

Dig through the non and pre-catholic writings that were predominant in the era prior to the third century, and you will find multiple writings that emphasize the stance that the God described in the old Testament is not the God that Jesus introduced to the world.

Obviously, that doctrine has changed over the centuries, and modern Christians no longer look on the Torah as an example of what not to believe, but from almost the very beginnings of Christianity, this was not so.

if there is a major variation then it's not God word, simple

I have taken hebrew classes and Bible Authenticity classes and I and my professor disagree with you that there is a bias in the old testament or the new. The Bible would cease to be God's word if that were the case.

in case of the new testament

In the many thousands of manuscript copies we possess of the New Testament, scholars have discovered that there are some 150,000 "variants."

This may seem like a staggering figure to the uninformed mind.

But to those who study the issue, the numbers are not so damning as it may initially appear.

Indeed, a look at the hard evidence shows that the New Testament manuscripts are amazingly accurate and trustworthy.

To begin, we must emphasize that out of these 150,000 variants, 99 percent hold virtually no significance whatsoever.

Many of these variants simply involve a missing letter in a word; some involve reversing the order of two words (such as "Christ Jesus" instead of "Jesus Christ"); some may involve the absence of one or more insignificant words.

Really, when all the facts are put on the table, only about 50 of the variants have any real significance - and even then, no doctrine of the Christian faith or any moral commandment is effected by them.

For more than ninety-nine percent of the cases the original text can be reconstructed to a practical certainty.

Even in the few cases where some perplexity remains, this does not impinge on the meaning of Scripture to the point of clouding a tenet of the faith or a mandate of life.

 

[Ed Bana]

It is the deepness of God's Word that fascinates me and I am pretty much apposed to all that religion has to say.

God is a spirit and men that are not spiritual be they religious or not spiritual will never perceive the deepness of God because He is the God over all thing and he hides his deepness.

Matt 25:25-26 (KJV) 25At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.


1 Corinthians 2:13-15 (amp)
　　　 14But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.
Romans 3: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
　

I have no problem with anybody believing anything they wish as long as they don't turn themselves into liars. I believe in the bible, even though I know most of it is unlikely. I believe in Santa Claus, even though I know he exists only in the spirit of giving. It's when people start arguing over the color and composition of the harness on the sleigh that I roll my eyes.

 

[LutheranMafia]

So lose the attitude.

Sorry, it is just my opinion that all this talk about Greek influx into ancient Catholicism is a bunch of hooey from heterdoxical denominations that are trying to justify themselves.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Some Christians say there is no light in Hell, that it is totally pitch black. There is a Lake of Fire in the fifth dimensional direction toward more globally bent timespaces, for, the entropy production rate, EPR, which is identical with fast polarity cancellation rates, and, fire is a fast polarity cancellation rate; but, the energy that maintained the polarities is released as light.
These Christians also say that each damned person is alone in this utter darkness. In the one substance, energy, differentiation can only be in closed circuitry. The real polarities are counterclockwise (male) on one side. and, clockwise (female) on the other side. Polarity separation is maintained by structure. When structure is dissolved, the opposite polarities are free to unite and undifferentiate, each entity becoming nonexistent. This is what to "perish" means: from the Lartin, "per" (completely), "ire" (gone), nonexistent. All lone persons have an equal amount of both polarities, only, structure separates them in different directions.
There are two things in the universe: energy; and, information; and, information is the conformation of energy. Let a table cloth represent energy. Wrinkles in that table cloth represent information. Pull the table cloth out straight, and "fump", the wrinkles (information) becomes nonexistent. Like bubbles in a shaken bottle of water, everything is striving to undifferentiate, to become nonexistent.
If we were energy we would never sleep. If the neurons that keep us conscious have their neuron wall permeability increased by a solvent, like ethanol (booze), acetone, or an anesthetic, consciousness is reduced, by our closed circuit being allowed to undifferentiate more. When undifferentiation is allowed, right down to the exact Planck's distance, permanent nonexistence is attained.
The heart of every pleasure is a moment of almost perfect nonexistence. This fact is veiled by past evolutionary selective evolution. Those who didn't have it didn't live long enough to pass on their genes. Some things transcend that veil: the greatest pleasures. That is probably why some great pleasures are associated with sin and Hell.

That must have been some good acid.

 

[Soulgazer]

if there is a variation then it's not God word, simple

I have taken hebrew classes and Bible Authenticity classes and I and my professor disagree with you that there is a bias in the old testament or the new. The Bible would cease to be God's word if that were the case.

in case of the new testament

In the many thousands of manuscript copies we possess of the New Testament, scholars have discovered that there are some 150,000 "variants."

This may seem like a staggering figure to the uninformed mind.

But to those who study the issue, the numbers are not so damning as it may initially appear.

Indeed, a look at the hard evidence shows that the New Testament manuscripts are amazingly accurate and trustworthy.

To begin, we must emphasize that out of these 150,000 variants, 99 percent hold virtually no significance whatsoever.

Many of these variants simply involve a missing letter in a word; some involve reversing the order of two words (such as "Christ Jesus" instead of "Jesus Christ"); some may involve the absence of one or more insignificant words.

Really, when all the facts are put on the table, only about 50 of the variants have any real significance - and even then, no doctrine of the Christian faith or any moral commandment is effected by them.

For more than ninety-nine percent of the cases the original text can be reconstructed to a practical certainty.

Even in the few cases where some perplexity remains, this does not impinge on the meaning of Scripture to the point of clouding a tenet of the faith or a mandate of life.

I don't have to go any further than the writings of Eusebius to demonstrate the fallaciousness of that comment. Eusebius quotes Matthew 28:19 twenty one times, either omitting everything between 'nations' 'and teaching', or in the form 'make disciples of all nations in my name.' This is a huge change, obviously reflecting a change to the scripture to reflect a change in church doctrine.

All of these arguments that you are giving me, I have made, and have been proven wrong. The simple facts are, that not even the new testament scriptures have remained inviolate, and some sciptures were added in the second century with cover stories (2Peter and the Pastorals) by the burgeoning catholic movement, which seemed to have absolutely no moral compunction against "bearing false witness".

Probably the most dramatic change has been the baptismal scene, which in some of the older copies of the Gospel, per Origen, originally read that God told Jesus "in thee I am well pleased, this day I have begotten thee", which reflects an adoptionist theology that is hinted at in the proem of John, and mentioned in "Hebrews".

I have to take issue with the "bible is God's word" statement. Who first said it, when, where and why?