Let's Talk About Hell (3)

[Hillsage]

So you do not believe in(follow) Christ?

I think the modern church committed a great error when they started to equate the graphe/scriptures/bible, which were written by 'inspiration from God', with the actual words that are spoken from the mouth of God to accomplish his ongoing purposes. And those are the words which proceedeth (present tense) from His mouth, to accomplish His will in the earth in spite of what anyone thinks their version of the written truth ought to be.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word/rhema that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

When will the religious ones learn that there is no life in the written word/bible, but only the spoken one which produces faith?

JOH 5:39 You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me;

John 6:63 It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

ROM 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word/rhema of God.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Mark 12:40 Damnation? They devour widows’ houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. Such men will be punished most severely.”
You really assume too much.

The KJV explicitly says damnation, although other versions do not.

This is from the Parable of Lazarus and the rich man. It is a parable about riches, NOT a hell travel-log.

Parables are not about made up circumstances. Just because the parable of the Good Samaritan is a parable doesn't mean that Samaritans didn't exist. If Hell does not exist it renders the story of Lazarus completely meaningless.

Death is outer darkness, left out of eternal life in God's Kingdom.

Wailing and gnashing teeth is an appropriate response for those who just discovered that they will miss out on eternal life and receive death instead.

How can the outer darkness be death if there is weeping and gnashing of teeth there?

 

[LutheranMafia]

I'm just looking at the word from a wide range of contexts. My daily bible reading is one chapter in the Greek New Testament and one chapter in the Greek Septuagint (Old Testament). Today I was reading Exodus 12 in Greek and came across this usage of psuche and I thought I'd share it with y'all. Perhaps you don't read the old and new testaments in greek every day as I do. Perhaps you can use some of my experience with the greek language. Maybe you can't and that's OK. I'm a reader, but not an expert. I did think I had something to contribute because perhaps you and gradyll didn't read Exodus 12 in greek today.

I thought it pertained because this is how the translator of the Septuagint translated the hebrew word for life into greek, psuche.

Excuuuse me for trying to help. Geeze!

BY the way, Geeze is taking Jesus' name in vain. Geeze is short for Jesus (at least according to the dictionary).

I don't think that reading the Old Testament in Greek is any better than reading it in English, it is still being translated. What is more impressive is reading it in Hebrew. The word for soul in Hebrew is nephesh, but it is distinctly different from pysche, because psyche has a much more limited range of meanings. Psyche could never mean fish, perfume or dead body the way nephesh can.

 

[Timothew]

BY the way, Geeze is taking Jesus' name in vain. Geeze is short for Jesus (at least according to the dictionary).

Dang! You're right. Sorry.

Geeze is usually accepted in polite company along with Golly and Gee-Whillikers. Shucks, a guy can't say shoot now.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Dang! You're right. Sorry.

Geeze is usually accepted in polite company along with Golly and Gee-Whillikers. Shucks, a guy can't say shoot now.

Only because people don't know what they are saying. Religious people are often quite shocked when made aware of this.

 

[Timothew]

Only because people don't know what they are saying. Religious people are often quite shocked when made aware of this.

I feel like it taking the Lord's name in vain is more serious if a person is saying the Lord said something that the Lord did not say. Something like this "Thus saith the Lord, your momma wears combat boots".

Or if a preacher says "The Lord told me that you will be blessed if you send me lots of money".

I actually do try not to say "minced oaths", I agree that it is no better to say Geez as a swear word. Usually I say "Oh, Poop!"

 

[createdtoworship]

The trouble is that you start with a preconceived conclusion, and then adjust the meanings of verses to fit that conclusion. That is called eisegesis and it is the wrong way go go about bible study. You should go into the scriptures and allow the scriptures to inform you about what they mean.

How do you prove pre-trib rapture? The same way you prove eternal torment in hell, by assuming it is true and then "adjusting" the meaning of any verse that proves that it isn't true.

How do you prove the trinity? By carefully studying what the bible says about God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

but you are doing it all the time. Changing psyche to mean life and aion to mean temporary. Thats eisegesis too. But systematic theology isn't wrong, it's what you have to do to make it not contradict itself.

 

[createdtoworship]

Its impossible to believe there is no contradiction here. Hebrews 8:7 and Jeremiah 8:8 directly clash with Psalm 19:7

For there to be no contradiction would require fancy footwork of dancing around what the text is saying. How do you interpret these three verses that no contradiction exists between them?

jeremiah 8:8 is answered here

Jeremiah 8:8: Abused and Misused

and Hebrews 8:7 is speaking about the new covenant not the law.

no contradiction.

 

[Timothew]

but you are doing it all the time. Changing psyche to mean life and aion to mean temporary. Thats eisegesis too. But systematic theology isn't wrong, it's what you have to do to make it not contradict itself.

Pysche does mean life, that is established. Go look at all the times psyche is used. Life is a more precise translation than soul.

I don't say aion means temporary. When did I say that? Aion means age, a period of time. Aionian most precisely means pertaining to the age. Since the age after the resurrection is eternal, aionian has taken the meaning "forever".
Here is the greek lexicon proving what I say. (I go to lexicons A LOT)
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dai)w%2Fn

The is a difference between working to learn the actual meanings of greek words versus just assigning them different meanings because you don't like the resulting theology.

Take death for example, this is always redefined as separation, but here is the definition:
death (d

th)
n. 1. The act of dying; termination of life.
2. The state of being dead.
3. The cause of dying: Drugs were the death of him.
4. A manner of dying: a heroine's death.
5. often Death A personification of the destroyer of life, usually represented as a skeleton holding a scythe.
6. a. Bloodshed; murder.
b. Execution.

7. Law Civil death.
8. The termination or extinction of something: the death of imperialism

So death does not mean separation, unless you mean "separated from life".

You aren't doing "systematic theology", you are trying to cling to a theology which isn't supported by scripture.
God hasn't set up a system of torture for millions of people.

 

[Soulgazer]

jeremiah 8:8 is answered here

Jeremiah 8:8: Abused and Misused

and Hebrews 8:7 is speaking about the new covenant not the law.

no contradiction.

Yup. That is some pretty fancy footwork, and rewriting Jewish history; don't you wonder how they feel when they hear gentile Christians making asinine comments about Jewish culture and tradition? It's ok not to know, but rather than making things up, they should ask. It was speaking about the first covenant, (which is not the ten commandments btw) but the written Torah as a whole.

Judaism was not a single religion following a single work. The followers of Jeremiah did not practice blood sacrifice, and kept the Oral torah, because the written Torah had been corrupted in their view.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Pysche does mean life, that is established. Go look at all the times psyche is used. Life is a more precise translation than soul.

Life clearly doesn't work in a number of circumstances.

The is a difference between working to learn the actual meanings of greek words versus just assigning them different meanings because you don't like the resulting theology.

You are the one redefining psyche to suite your preconceived notions.

Here are some cases where life clearly doesn’t fit:

And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be afraid of Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:28

Behold, My Servant Whom I have chosen, My Beloved in and with Whom My soul is well pleased
Matthew 12:18

if he draws back and shrinks in fear, My soul has no delight or pleasure in him.
Hebrews 10:38

What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul?
Matthew 16:26

"so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too.” (Simeon speaking to Mary and Joseph about baby Jesus).
Luke 2:35

Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell
Acts 2:27

May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless
1 Thessalonians 5:23

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul
1 Corinthians 15:45

Whatever may be your task, work at it heartily (from the soul), as [something done] for the Lord and not for men,
Colossians 3:23

Dear friends, I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from sinful desires, which wage war against your soul.
1 Peter 2:11

Beloved, I pray that in all respects you may prosper and be in good health, just as your soul prospers.
3 John 1:2

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain
Revelation 6:9

​

God hasn't set up a system of torture for millions of people.

Jude 1:13 explicitly disagrees. Even those who suffer the second death and are “twice dead” (Jude 1:12) have spirits that continue to wander for eternity.

I want to go back over the above list of verses and make some comments.

And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be afraid of Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:28
​

If psyche means life rather than soul what does it mean to kill the body but not kill the life?

Behold, My Servant Whom I have chosen, My Beloved in and with Whom My soul is well pleased
Matthew 12:18

if he draws back and shrinks in fear, My soul has no delight or pleasure in him.
Hebrews 10:38
​

In these two verses the Holy Father is speaking. So the Holy Father has a physical existence separate from Jesus?

What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul?
Matthew 16:26
​

How can you gain the world if you forfeit your life? If you are dead you can't gain the whole world, so clearly psyche is not refering to physical existence here.

"so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too.” (Simeon speaking to Mary and Joseph about baby Jesus).
Luke 2:35
​

Your argument would have to be that Simeon was predicting that Mary and Joseph would be physical pierced by a sword.

Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell
Acts 2:27
​

You can't be in Hell and have a life. You have to die to go to Hell.

May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless
1 Thessalonians 5:23

​

So the life is something separate from the body? Also note the juxtiposition of the spirit and soul in this verse. There is an association between spirit and soul that is repeated in other verses, an association that makes it clear that soul is something much closer to spirit than flesh. For example:

For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit
Hebrews 4:12
​

Soul and spirit are much closer to each other than either are to the flesh. Biblical usage makes this abundantly clear.

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul
1 Corinthians 15:45
​

A living life? That would be very redundant.

Whatever may be your task, work at it heartily (from the soul), as [something done] for the Lord and not for men,
Colossians 3:23
​

Psyche here clearly means something much deeper than material existence.

Dear friends, I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from sinful desires, which wage war against your soul.
1 Peter 2:11
​

Sin does not war against the flesh, it wars against the soul.

Beloved, I pray that in all respects you may prosper and be in good health, just as your soul prospers.
3 John 1:2
​

The spiritial health of the soul is here contrasted against mere physical health.

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain
Revelation 6:9
​

The lives of those who had been slain? Those who are slain do not have a life.

 

[Timothew]

OK LutheranMafia, I don't care if you disagree with me. It's OK.
Here's Jude 1:13
They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

Originally Posted by Timothew

God hasn't set up a system of torture for millions of people.
​

Jude 1:13 explicitly disagrees.

Jude 1:13 Doesn't say "God set up a system of torture for millions of people."

Sorry.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Jude 1:13 Doesn't say "God set up a system of torture for millions of people."

Sorry.

It doesn't specify how many will wander in the nether gloom for eternity, it just states that there are those who will, even after having died the second death (Jude 1:12).

But I'm glad that you have changed your specification of the damned from "non-believers" to "millions". The last time I queried you about this you had a hissy fit and refused to answer me across half a dozen times of asking you what you meant. So now it is good to know that you do not mean billions of others from other religions. At least in that regard we are in agreement. Millions would be a tenth of a percent of the people alive today. I think that is in the ball park.

 

[Timothew]

It doesn't specify how many will wander in the nether gloom for eternity, it just states that there are those who will, even after having died the second death (Jude 1:12).

But I'm glad that you have changed your specification of the damned from "non-believers" to "millions". The last time I queried you about this you had a hissy fit and refused to answer me across half a dozen times of asking you what you meant. So now it is good to know that you do not mean billions of others from other religions. At least in that regard we are in agreement. Millions would be a tenth of a percent of the people alive today. I think that is in the ball park.

I don't have hissy fits, I also don't know for sure how many are lost.

 

[LutheranMafia]

I want to emphasize in Jude 1:13 the phrase "nether gloom" which is the Greek word zophos:

1) darkness, blackness
a) used of the darkness of the nether world

Here are the three other verses where it is used. It is a most interesting word!

For if God spared not angels when they sinned, but cast them down to hell, and committed them to pits of darkness (nether gloom), to be reserved unto judgment
2 Peter 2:4

These are springs without water, and mists driven by a storm; for whom the blackness of darkness (nether gloom) hath been reserved.
2 Peter 2:17

And angels that kept not their own principality, but left their proper habitation, he hath kept in everlasting bonds under darkness (nether gloom) unto the judgment of the great day.
Jude 1:6
​

These are all quoted from the ESV Bible.

 

[Soulgazer]

9. The light with the darkness, life with death, the right with the left are brothers one to another. It is not possible for them to be separated from one another. Because of this, neither are the good good, nor are the evils evil, nor is the life a life, nor is death a death. Therefore each individual shall be resolved into his origin from (the) beginning. Yet those exalted above the world are immortal (and¹) are in eternity°. (¹asyndeton; Isa 45:7, Lam 3:38; cp. the Chinese Tao; interlinear)



68. One exists either in this world or in the resurrection or in the transitional° regions. May it not occur that I be found in (the latter)! (In) this world there is essentially the good and the evil. Its goods are not good and its evils are not evil. (Ph 9) Yet there is evil after this world, which is truly evil: that which is called the transition� it is death. While we are in this world it is appropriate for us to be born in the resurrection, so that if we are divested of the flesh we shall find ourselves in the repose¹ (and) not wander in the transition. For many go astray on the way. Thus it is good to come forth from the world before humankind was caused to transgress. (¹asyndeton; Th 60, Rev/Ap 20:5; thus Sylvia Plath, The Unabridged Journals: �Only that life end not before I am born�; interlinear)



69. Some indeed neither wish nor have the ability. Yet others if they wish receive no benefit, for they were not accustomed to practice. For desire makes them transgressors. Yet not desiring righteousness shall conceal from them both the wish and the lack of accomplishment. (thus Hsün Tzu, 3rd century BC China: �An inferior man can become a superior man, but he does not want to�; interlinear)


70. An Apostolic¹ in a vision saw some who were confined in a house of fire, crying out [in the] air with a fiery [voice], cast in the flames [for an era°]. There is water in [...], and they proclaim to themselves: [...] The waters can[not] save us [from death! Misled by] their desire, they received [death as] chastisement� this which is called the [outermost] darkness. (¹perhaps Philip himself; Ps 66:12, Rev/Ap 20:14-15, Mt 25:30; interlinear)


Gospel of Philip

Death looks kind of final to me.

72. The truth did not come unto the world naked, but rather it has come in symbolic° imagery. (The world) will not receive it in any other fashion. There is a rebirth° together with a reborn imagery. It is truly appropriate not to be reborn thru the imagery. (Jn 3) What is the resurrection with its imagery?� it is appropriate to arise thru the imagery. The Bridal-Chamber with its imagery?� it is appropriate to come into the truth thru the imagery, which is this restoration°. It is appropriate for those born not only of the words �the Father with the Son with the Holy Spirit�, but (moreover) born of them [...¹] themselves. Whoever is not begotten of them, will have the name also taken from him. (Ph 63)Yet one receives them in the Chrism of the fullness in the power of the cross², which the Apostles call: the right with the left. (Ph 9) For this-one is no longer a Christic but rather a Christ. (¹see the interlinear; ²anti-Gnostic; Isa 30:21, Ac 3:21)

The image of eternal destruction, or everlasting death, is unquenchable fire. However, it is the image, not the reality. As Philip recorded, "It is truly appropriate not to be reborn thru the imagery." In other words, it is inappropriate to assume that the images put forth are the reality.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

You summed up what I was trying to say Soulgazer.

 

[Soulgazer]

You summed up what I was trying to say Soulgazer.

Not me. It's all been said before if you know where to look. But thank you.

 

[createdtoworship]

I want to emphasize in Jude 1:13 the phrase "nether gloom" which is the Greek word zophos:

1) darkness, blackness
a) used of the darkness of the nether world

Here are the three other verses where it is used. It is a most interesting word!

For if God spared not angels when they sinned, but cast them down to hell, and committed them to pits of darkness (nether gloom), to be reserved unto judgment
2 Peter 2:4

These are springs without water, and mists driven by a storm; for whom the blackness of darkness (nether gloom) hath been reserved.
2 Peter 2:17

And angels that kept not their own principality, but left their proper habitation, he hath kept in everlasting bonds under darkness (nether gloom) unto the judgment of the great day.
Jude 1:6
​

These are all quoted from the ESV Bible.

interesting, so the angels were not annihilated either.

 

[Mikecpking]

Life clearly doesn't work in a number of circumstances.

You are the one redefining psyche to suite your preconceived notions.

Here are some cases where life clearly doesn’t fit:

And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be afraid of Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:28

A soul in this context is still a 'soul' until decomposition occurs to dust. The biblical soul 'is always bound up in the body. Jesus was promising would be martyrs they would get a full existence and resurrection rather than becoming the shodowy 'rephaim' in sheol.

Behold, My Servant Whom I have chosen, My Beloved in and with Whom My soul is well pleased
Matthew 12:18

This is the personal pronoun definition of psuche and could also be rendered 'me'

if he draws back and shrinks in fear, My soul has no delight or pleasure in him.
Hebrews 10:38

Same again

What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul?
Matthew 16:26

Loses his own 'life' in some translations.

"so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too.” (Simeon speaking to Mary and Joseph about baby Jesus).
Luke 2:35

'you' (personal pronoun)

Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell
Acts 2:27

NIV has soul as 'me' so again, the personal pronoun

May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless
1 Thessalonians 5:23

verb and adjective are singular so the emphasis is the 'whole of you' rather than 'parts of you'.

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul
1 Corinthians 15:45

Whatever may be your task, work at it heartily (from the soul), as [something done] for the Lord and not for men,
Colossians 3:23

Living soul here is the whole living person and the second use is vital urge.

Dear friends, I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from sinful desires, which wage war against your soul.
1 Peter 2:11

Soul as 'yourselves'. Personal pronoun again.

Beloved, I pray that in all respects you may prosper and be in good health, just as your soul prospers.
3 John 1:2

person pronoun

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain
Revelation 6:9

What do you think that is supposed to mean? 'Souls' are people. Complete beings who are able to wear white robes!

Jude 1:13 explicitly disagrees. Even those who suffer the second death and are “twice dead” (Jude 1:12) have spirits that continue to wander for eternity.

I want to go back over the above list of verses and make some comments.

And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be afraid of Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:28
​

If psyche means life rather than soul what does it mean to kill the body but not kill the life?

Behold, My Servant Whom I have chosen, My Beloved in and with Whom My soul is well pleased
Matthew 12:18

if he draws back and shrinks in fear, My soul has no delight or pleasure in him.
Hebrews 10:38
​

In these two verses the Holy Father is speaking. So the Holy Father has a physical existence separate from Jesus?

What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul?
Matthew 16:26
​

How can you gain the world if you forfeit your life? If you are dead you can't gain the whole world, so clearly psyche is not refering to physical existence here.

"so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too.” (Simeon speaking to Mary and Joseph about baby Jesus).
Luke 2:35
​

Your argument would have to be that Simeon was predicting that Mary and Joseph would be physical pierced by a sword.

Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell
Acts 2:27
​

You can't be in Hell and have a life. You have to die to go to Hell.

May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless
1 Thessalonians 5:23

​

So the life is something separate from the body? Also note the juxtiposition of the spirit and soul in this verse. There is an association between spirit and soul that is repeated in other verses, an association that makes it clear that soul is something much closer to spirit than flesh. For example:

For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit
Hebrews 4:12
​

Soul and spirit are much closer to each other than either are to the flesh. Biblical usage makes this abundantly clear.

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul
1 Corinthians 15:45
​

A living life? That would be very redundant.

Whatever may be your task, work at it heartily (from the soul), as [something done] for the Lord and not for men,
Colossians 3:23
​

Psyche here clearly means something much deeper than material existence.

Dear friends, I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from sinful desires, which wage war against your soul.
1 Peter 2:11
​

Sin does not war against the flesh, it wars against the soul.

Beloved, I pray that in all respects you may prosper and be in good health, just as your soul prospers.
3 John 1:2
​

The spiritial health of the soul is here contrasted against mere physical health.

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain
Revelation 6:9
​

The lives of those who had been slain? Those who are slain do not have a life.

'psuche' also means corpse. A person 'stops' being a 'nephesh' or 'psuche' once they decoposed to dust.


Once again, I post this for you, because 'psuche' and 'nephesh' has a number of different meanings:
From post #50

>>
Since 'nephesh' also is the personal pronoun (me) (see numbers 23:10, Judges 16:30), you could say let me not abhor you..

Nephesh is not the same as the pagan Greek soul that Plato teaches.

You have seen this before>>

'Nephesh' has such a variety of senses that we must make a careful definition in each particular case. Meanings overlap and are used side by side. It is easy to end up with contradictory statements about 'nephesh'. Here are some of the central statements about 'nephesh':-
• it is that vital life which is shared by both humans and animals [Gen 2:19].
• it is life that is bound up with the body, blood is the vehicle of nephesh [Dt 12:23], at death it dies [Nu 23:10] draining away with the blood, with resuscitation it 'returns'; not that it has gone anywhere.
• it can denote 'the living individual themselves' [Gen 14:21], and can replace the personal pronoun to create special emphasis [Ps 42:6], God uses it of himself [Am 6:8].
• it is strongly instinctive [animal] activity; desire, vital urge, feeling, emotion, mood [Dt 14:26].
• it is feelings and emotions of a spiritual kind; grief, pain, joy, peace, love [Ezk 27:31]; its highest expression is longing for God [Ps 25:1].