Let's Talk About Hell (2)

[Mikecpking]

oh I didn't know that you used concordant, I honestly stopped reading your arguments. Which is okay they are for everyone. But I am definitely not wrong here. It's good that the KJV had an error correcting code in there department. You should too.

Its better to get an understanding of the Hebreww concept of 'sheol' and the equivalent 'hades' as a means of interpreting the bible. Its a shame the KLV uses the word 'hell' for 'sheol' in much the same way 'soul' for 'nephesh'.

 

[Hillsage]

I honestly stopped reading your arguments.

Thank you for your honesty, it truly explains a lot. And honesty is certainly an attribute that's especially lacking in most nominal Christians. I was beginning to think it was my fault for not being able to reach you. I'm relieved to know that was not the case. And I can also rest in why the Holy Spirit inspired the following thought.

2TI 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

If you weren't reading then you couldn't learn anything from me to begin with. If there are any lurkers out there this would be an 'ah ha' moment for you too.

It's good that the KJV had an error correcting code in there department. You should too.

I do need need correcting at times, that's for sure. BTW remember your 'English skills' that I mentioned in the last post. Well it's 'their department' not "there department". Small error I know, but I was taught that little errors is where big errors like 'eternal hell' come from. If you do read this...don't bother responding, it would really be for the best.

 

[createdtoworship]

Its better to get an understanding of the Hebreww concept of 'sheol' and the equivalent 'hades' as a means of interpreting the bible. Its a shame the KLV uses the word 'hell' for 'sheol' in much the same way 'soul' for 'nephesh'.

words that mean the same thing for the most part. IF you look in strongs under sheol I am sure that Hell is listed as an alternative for the word. Same thing for soul, if you look it up in strongs I am sure that nephesh is listed.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

This is exactly the problem with translating words and idea to another language.

Just some examples of phrases that don't translate well from English to Spanish:

1. A otro perro con ese hueso. (You're putting me on.)

Literal in Spanish: To another dog with that bone.

2. Antes que te cases mira lo que haces. (Look before you leap.)

Literal in Spanish: Before you marry, look at what you do.

3. Cada quien tiene su manera de matar pulgas (There's more than one way to skin the cat.)

Literal in Spanish: Everyone has their own way to kill fleas.

4. Como el burro que tocó la flauta. (By pure luck.)

Literal: As the donkey played the flute.

5. Salir de Guatemala y meterse en guatepeor. (Out of the frying pan and into the fire.)

Literal: To leave Guatemala and arrive in worse cornstalks.

6. El hijo de la gata, ratones mata. (Like father, like son.)

Literal: The son of the cat kills mice.

7. Entrada de caballo, salida de burro. (Don't start something you can't finish.)

Literal: Enter on horseback, leave on a donkey.

8. Tener más lana que un borrego. (To have money to burn.)

Literal: To have more wool than a lamb.

9. Yo tengo una tía que toca la guitarra. (What's that got to do with the price of tea in China?)

Literal: I have an aunt that plays the guitar.

10. Ir a donde la reina va solo. (To powder one's nose.)

Literal: To go where the queen goes alone.

What has this got to do with the price of tea in China? Well, other than my aunt really being able to play guitar, it clearly shows that phrases and words don't translate well between cultures all the time.

Hell became an alternative for Sheol when King James forced it to. It had nothing to do with it to begin with. The KJV has translation errors in it, some are big, most are small (like the unicorn/oxen thing).

If you want more proof that Sheol doesn't equal Hell, I have a site that's very detailed about the translation process in the KJV.

Here's a snippet from it.

The Exact Nature of Sheol, Hades and Hell.

Confusion Due to Inconsistent Translating of Sheol

Centuries ago theologians evidently did not believe there was a separate compartment to sheol for righteous souls in Old Testament times; they simply believed sheol was a place of torment for those damned of God in the heart of the earth. This caused some obvious problems: If sheol is a condition of conscious torment, how does one explain the many passages that plainly show that righteous souls as well as heathen souls went to sheol in Old Testament times?
The solution for the translators of the 1611 King James Version, believe it or not, was to translate sheol as “hell” when it applied to unrighteous people and as “the grave” when it applied to the righteous. In other words, they did not uniformly translate sheol; in fact, their definition was determined purely by whether the passage referred to the wicked or the righteous. The translators of the King James – also known as the Authorized Version – adhered to this as a general rule, so anyone reading this version would understandably come to the conclusion that heathen people went to a horrible netherworld of torments when they died while righteous people like Job and David merely went to “the grave.”
Let’s observe evidence of this:

PSALM 9:17 (KJV)
The wicked shall be turned into hell (sheol), and all the nations that forget God.

Since the passage is referring to “the wicked” the King James translators chose to translate sheol as “hell;” yet notice how they render sheol when the sciptural passage applies to righteous King Hezekiah:

ISAIAH 38:10 (KJV)
I said in the cutting off of my days, I shall go to the gates of the grave (sheol): I am deprived of the residue of my years.

Hezekiah, the godly king of Judah, is speaking in this passage; he has a fatal illness and clearly doesn’t want to die. Unfortunately, the King James rendering of this verse isn’t very clear to modern readers so let’s read the same passage from the New International Version:

ISAIAH 38:10
I said, “In the prime of my life must I go through the gates of death (sheol) and be robbed of the rest of my years?”

It’s obvious here that Hezekiah expected to go to sheol when he died. Since this passage is plainly referring to a righteous man of God, the King James translators decided not to translate sheol as “hell” as that would give the impression to any English reader that godly King Hezekiah would go to a place of conscious torment when he died; this evidently contradicted their theology so they simply rendered sheol as “the grave.”
The Hebrew word sheol appears 66 times in the Old Testament and is translated in the King James Version 32 times as “hell,” 31 times as “the grave” and 3 times as “the Pit.” How the King James translators translated sheol was determined purely by whether the passage referred to the wicked or the righteous. We see evidence of this above and we’ll see much more evidence as our study progresses. Scholars agree that there is simply no justification for this lack of uniformity in translating sheol.
Before I say anything more, I’d like to stress that I’m not a hater of the King James bible; I have at least three editions of this fine version in my household and enjoy them greatly. Overall, it’s been a great blessing to English speaking people for many centuries now. However, its translation error on this specific issue cannot be condoned.
Needless to say, due to the King James Version’s extreme popularity in the centuries following its publication in 1611, it’s lack of uniformity in translating sheol has not helped the cause of truth regarding the nature of the intermediate state.
Today, the King James is no longer the most popular English version of the bible and more recent translations have, thankfully, corrected this translation error. For instance, the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV) and The New American Standard Bible (NASB) adhere to the policy of not translating either sheol or hades. It is for this reason that we will regularly use these translations in our study on sheol in this part of HELL KNOW.
As for the popular New International Version, sheol and hades are rendered variously as “grave,” “death,” “depths,” and once as “hell.” Yet, regardless of how this version translates sheol and hades, it very conveniently reveals the original Hebrew or Greek term in the footnotes, which is a commendable.

While we're talking about whether or not hell is a place of torment or not....let's look at Job

Job’s View of Sheol

Let us now consider Job’s view of the intermediate state. Job was the greatest man of his time and God bragged of his character, integrity, godliness and hatred of evil (Job 1:1,3,8). Furthermore, in the book of Ezekiel God spoke of Job in the same breath as Noah and Daniel, two other great men of God (Ezekiel 14:14-20). The LORD obviously has a very high opinion of Job. We can therefore regard Job’s views on sheol as very reliable.
As we shall see, Job goes into quite a lot of detail concerning the nature of sheol. Did Job just dream up all this information or did he have divine revelation on the subject? No doubt God revealed these truths to him. We can confidently draw this conclusion because what Job says about sheol is in complete agreement with what the rest of the bible teaches on the subject; only if Job’s position contradicted the rest of Holy Scripture would we question its validity.[1]
For those unfamiliar with the biblical book of Job, let me briefly explain its contents: Satan argues to God that Job is devoted to Him merely because the LORD has blessed him so greatly; he contends that Job will curse Him to His face if his many blessings are removed. God therefore permits Satan to attack Job to find out. As a result of Satan’s attacks, Job loses his ten children, hundreds of his employees (all but four), all his great wealth and even his health as he is afflicted with painful sores from head to toe.
After many months of suffering, three of Job’s friends go to “comfort” him and end up judging & accusing him of some great hidden sin, which consequently brought about all his horrible suffering. Most of the book consists of Job, in great anguish, profoundly debating with these “friends;” it should be noted, however, that much of what Job says is directed at God Himself. Such is the case with this passage:

JOB 14:10-15 (NRSV)
“But mortals die, and are laid low; humans expire and where are they? (11) As waters fail from a lake, and a river wastes away and dries up, (12) so mortals lie down and do not rise again; until the heavens are no more, they will not awake or be aroused out of their sleep. (13) Oh that you (God) would hide me in sheol, that you would conceal me until your wrath is past, that you would appoint me a set time, and remember me! (14) If mortals die, will they live again? All of the days of my service I would wait until my release should come. (15) You would call, and I would answer you; you would long for the works of your hands.”

Much is being said in this passage so let’s take it point by point. First of all, in verse 10 Job declares that “mortals die” and then asks “where are they?” He then partially answers his own question in verse 12 by likening death to “sleep” which humans will not “awake” from until “the heavens are no more,” or, we could say, a very long time. The important point I want to emphasize from these words is that Job describes the condition of death as “sleep” from which all human beings will one day “awake” or be resurrected.
Yet he still hasn’t really answered the question of where people go after they die. The very next verse answers this: In his great anguish he cries out to God to hide him in sheol. Why does Job pray this? Because his suffering was so great he wanted to escape it through death; and obviously when a person died, Job believed, his or her soul would go to sheol.
One may argue that, in verse 12, Job is perhaps referring to the body “sleeping” in the grave, but the obvious focus of his words is the death condition of the soul in sheol because in the very same breath, verse 13, he prays to God to go specifically there: “Oh that you would hide me in sheol, that you would conceal me until your wrath is past, that you would appoint a set time and remember me!”
Job erroneously believed that God Himself was causing his great afflictions; he was obviously unaware of the Devil’s hand in the situation. In truth, God only permitted Job’s afflictions by allowing Satan to attack him. Regardless, the fact is that Job believed that by dying and going to sheol he would escape his intense suffering.
In other words, as amazing as it may seem, Job was actually hoping and praying to die and go to sheol, a place traditionally considered “hell” and viewed as a horrible, devil-ruled torture chamber located somewhere in the nether regions of the earth! Obviously Job’s view of sheol – “hell” – was quite different from what religious tradition has taught us. He prayed to go to sheol because, being one of God’s inspired servants, he knew that sheol was a condition of unconsciousness which he describes as sleep. Job was understandably weary of his intense suffering and wanted it to end. He knew that in death, in sheol, he would find relief from his misery, not an increase of it.
A vital fact that needs to be stressed from the above passage is that, regardless of the nature of sheol, Job definitely believed that everyone would ultimately be resurrected from there. In verse 12 he makes it clear that all mortals who lie down in the sleep of death will one day awaken, that is, be resurrected when “the heavens are no more.” And, while Job prayed to go to sheol in verse 13, it was not with the expectation that he would remain there forever. Job obviously believed that if God “hid” him in sheol He would “appoint a set time and remember” him, which is obviously when his “release” would come (verse 14). Release from what? Why, release from captivity to sheol, “the world of the dead” as scholar James Strong defines it. So God “remembering” him and “releasing” him are references to a future resurrection from sheol, which is in harmony with what the rest of the bible teaches.

“There the Wicked Cease from Turmoil, and the Weary are at Rest”

Job elaborates greatly on the nature of sheol in chapter 3 of the book named after him. In this chapter Job curses the day of his birth because his suffering is so great. In essence, Job is wishing that he were never born into this world because then he would never have had to experience such incredible agony. He then details what it would be like for him if this were so:

JOB 3:11-19
“Why did I not perish at birth and die as I came from the womb? (12) Why were there knees to receive me and breasts that I might be nursed? (13) For now I would be lying down in peace; I would be asleep and at rest (14) with kings and counselors of the earth who built for themselves places now lying in ruins, (15) with rulers who had gold, who filled their houses with silver. (16) Or why was I not hidden in the ground like a stillborn child, like an infant who never saw the light of day? (17) There the wicked cease from turmoil, and there the weary are at rest. (18) Captives also enjoy their ease; they no longer hear the slave driver’s shout. (19) The small and great are there, and the slave is freed from his master.”

Job starts off this passage by asking why he didn’t die as an infant. He then indicates that, in this event, he would not be enduring all the great suffering that he was experiencing. He explains in verse 13 that had he died in infancy he would be peacefully “lying down… asleep and at rest.”
Job then further explains that he would have shared this condition of sleep and rest with kings and counselors of the earth, with the small and the great, with rulers and slaves, with captives and weary people and, yes, even with the wicked! In this state of death, Job declares in verse 17 that “there the wicked cease from turmoil, and there the weary are at rest,” and in verse 18 he makes it plain that there’s no “slave driver’s shout” as well.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

This coincides with what Job later says concerning the wicked:

JOB 21:13
“They (the wicked) spend their days in prosperity and in peace they go down to sheol.”

Note that Job didn’t say the wicked go down to sheol in torment; no, they go down to sheol in peace. This completely contradicts the religious traditional belief that the unredeemed go to some horrible devil-ruled nether realm immediately after physical death and suffer torments as they are goaded on by slave-driving demons in fiery pits. Instead Job makes it clear that there is no turmoil or torment for the wicked in sheol.
If Job’s view of sheol is divinely inspired and therefore coincides with the rest of the God-breathed scriptures, these are powerful facts indeed! They reveal that at death kings, counselors, rulers, infants, the wicked, the weary, captives, the small, the great and slaves all share the same condition, a condition of peaceful “sleep” and “rest,” which are obvious references to unconsciousness. No wonder Job, stripped of all his possessions, forsaken by his wife and friends, tortured by painful sores from head to toe, mocked and made a byword by everyone and mourning for his ten children & hundreds of servants, prayed to go to such a place. Needless to say, Job’s understanding of sheol was quite different from that held by so many misguided religious people today.
Some may wonder if perhaps Job was referring to the literal grave or tomb where the body is laid to rest since there is no specific mention of sheol in chapter 3. This idea is ruled out because Job makes it clear in verses 13-15 that, if he died, he’d be lying down asleep with kings, counselors and rulers. So Job is plainly referring to a common place or condition that all people shared together. Biblically speaking, this would be sheol, the realm of dead souls, as verified in Ecclesiastes 9:10, a passage we shall examine in the very next section. In addition, Job would not be referring to the literal grave or tomb for the body because it is not acceptable or usual practice to bury people together in mass graves or tombs, whether then or now.
Before we continue let’s remember, as detailed in Chapter One, that this was well before the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, hence spiritual rebirth and the consequent attainment of eternal life were yet to be manifested. For this reason, the souls of Old Testament saints could not be ushered into God’s presence when they physically died; the souls of both the righteous and unrighteous went to sheol during this period because ultimate redemption was not yet available. The righteous captives to sheol – death – would not be set free until the resurrection and ascension of the Lord.




It strangely matches up with what I was saying earlier. Why wasn't this place of eternal torment mentioned in the Old Testament? Job himself, one of the greatest men of faith in the entire Old Testament, is saying that sheol is a place of rest, EVEN for the wicked.

 

[Hillsage]

The Hebrew word sheol appears 66 times in the Old Testament and is translated in the King James Version 32 times as “hell,” 31 times as “the grave” and 3 times as “the Pit.”

The word Hell is in the Revised 1611 KJV 54 times. Modern scholarship cleaned up the lie quite a bit. 1946 RSV 13 times NAS, 1960 13 times. Obviously more work needs to be done...like the YLT which has the word "hell"....no where to be found in the old or new testament.

How the King James translators translated sheol was determined purely by whether the passage referred to the wicked or the righteous. We see evidence of this above and we’ll see much more evidence as our study progresses.

Now that is an exact confirmation what I've been saying all along. Doctrine determined translation, and not the laws of Greek or grammar.

Scholars agree that there is simply no justification for this lack of uniformity in translating sheol.

As I had posted earlier...from the professor of theology at Westminster Seminary; "The traditional doctrine of hell now bears the marks of odium theologium."

But just like when I was growing up in the Catholic church and Rome wanted to drop Latin from the service, you should have heard the sheep bleating. I heard it especially well cause my dad was one of them, and he went to his grave without a testimony for Jesus...but only a religious affiliation.

 

[LutheranMafia]

If you want more proof that Sheol doesn't equal Hell, I have a site that's very detailed about the translation process in the KJV.

It is abundantly clear that Sheol is not always Hell because of verses like the following:

They spend their days in prosperity, and in peace they go down to Sheol.
Job 21:13

Do therefore according to your wisdom, and don't let his gray head go down to Sheol in peace.
1 Kings 2:6
​

However, most of the time Sheol does refer to going to a Hellish afterlife, or even a Hellish physical existence such as in the book of Jonah.

 

[LutheranMafia]

No I don't believe in Universalism, Yes I do believe in Christian Universalism...there is a difference.

What is the difference?

Since you brought him up, do you believe that the sins of Hitler pale in comparison to the atrocities that orthodoxy believes God will administer to all unbelieving men, women and children?

No I do not believe that. If God is love then Christ as the incarnation of God is the incarnation of love, and so even someone who thinks intellectually that they are an atheist, if they believe with all their heart in the power of love, which many do, then in truth the do believe in the true essence of God.

What this has to do with Hitler being saved is completely beyond me. Thinking that Hitler can ever be saved is completely nuts in my opinion.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Death is not eternal punishment because you can't be punished even more after you die...Says you, or says God?

Well that is rather arrogant, I do not presume to speak for God. This is just common sense, and it is also the thrust of the argument of your compatriot, Timothew, who asserts that there is no eternal punishment in annihilation. He believes that the wages of sin is absolute death, annihilation, and as such cannot be eternal punishment.

Basically, you're saying death is not a good enough punishment. However the wages of sin is death, which is a punishment.

Death is not necessarily a punishment at all, for those who go to Sheol in peace or even to Heaven. Death is not an end, there is an afterlife. Bascially I believe in an afterlife. And while Jesus does speak of the death of the soul, the second death, he does not speak of the death of the spirit. There is no third death. Once rendered from the soul the spirit of the wicked goes on for eternity in a state of torment.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

Well that is rather arrogant, I do not presume to speak for God. This is just common sense, and it is also the thrust of the argument of your compatriot, Timothew, who asserts that there is no eternal punishment in annihilation. He believes that the wages of sin is absolute death, annihilation, and as such cannot be eternal punishment.

Death is not necessarily a punishment at all, for those who go to Sheol in peace or even to Heaven. Death is not an end, there is an afterlife. Bascially I believe in an afterlife. And while Jesus does speak of the death of the soul, the second death, he does not speak of the death of the spirit. There is no third death. Once rendered from the soul the spirit of the wicked goes on for eternity in a state of torment.

Didn't you say you also believe in reincarnation though? How does it make sense when you also say that people who reject God spend eternity in a state of torment? Couldn't that person just be born again? Why mention a third death and not say a fourth or fifth death? I've heard of reincarnation being taught or at least talked about in Jewish tradition, but I have never been taught the theology on that. Please explain this because this theology is very confusing to me.

Again though, I have to ask, why is death not necessarily a punishment for all? You say eternal punishment with one implication and he says it with another. Its still the same freaking word, but the context is being changed. He believes in eternal punishment, as in a punishment that is eternal in consequence. Its death without a parole.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Didn't you say you also believe in reincarnation though? How does it make sense when you also say that people who reject God spend eternity in a state of torment?

Hindus and Buddhists fear reincarnation. For them this is Hell and they wish to remain on one of the heavenly worlds, like Krishna-loka, Hiranya-loka or P'u T'o Shan.

Couldn't that person just be born again?

Not without a soul. The second death is the death of the soul. Genesis says that the soul is in the blood (blood lines) and as such, if no one is willing to give birth to you and make you part of their bloodline, then you are cursed to an eternity of soulless spirit existence. Never to be completely forgotten but always there as a reminder to those who might want to stray from he striaght and narrow path.

Why mention a third death and not say a fourth or fifth death?

Because we have three parts just like God. We have body, soul and spirit. Only the spirit is indestructible. It either returns to God and is renewed for another incarnation, or it is flung out towards infinity, out beyond the light of the quasars, where there is eternal gnashing of teeth and torment.

I've heard of reincarnation being taught or at least talked about in Jewish tradition, but I have never been taught the theology on that. Please explain this because this theology is very confusing to me.

In his day, Jesus was thought of as the reincarnation of Elisha and John the Baptist as the reincarnation of Elijah.

For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.
Matthew 11:13-14


​

Again though, I have to ask, why is death not necessarily a punishment for all? You say eternal punishment with one implication and he says it with another. Its still the same freaking word, but the context is being changed. He believes in eternal punishment, as in a punishment that is eternal in consequence. Its death without a parole.

The key word is torment. Eternal torment cannot exist without consciousness. Annihiliation precludes the possibility of torment.

 

[Hillsage]

What is the difference?

The difference is admittedly subtle but Universalism believes that all roads lead to heaven...eg Christianity, Hinduism Buddhism, reincarnation, whatever.
Christian universalism believes that all roads will end up leading to Christ and that without Him there is no salvation or name that can be name by which one is saved. This difference is really little known, even by many Christians who still believe in the Ultimate Reconciliation of all by the Christ. A savior whose very purpose was to "seek and save the lost" as well as "to destroy the works of the devil". Neither one of those mandates is fulfilled in orthodoxy.

Thinking that Hitler can ever be saved is completely nuts in my opinion.

You are not alone in your feelings. But you didn't really answer my question. How is what God does to billions, with 'never ending torture in hell', compare with the meanness of Hitler to a few million for a couple of years? If that describes the God of Love then it sounds like Hitler was more loving than the God of a never ending Auschwitz where one isn't even allowed death for release like the gulags.

 

[LutheranMafia]

You are not alone in your feelings. But you didn't really answer my question. How is what God does to billions, with 'never ending torture in hell'

I contradicted this, I stated that I believe that God is love and that Christ, being the incarnation of love, is something that almost everyone believes in deep down inside. There are very few people who do not believe in the power of love, and thus the power of God, even if they think they are an atheist.

compare with the meanness of Hitler to a few million for a couple of years?

Hitler was a savage beast, the greatest mass murderer in history. You contrive God as Hitler if recompense is real because you want to apply the recompense of evil to billions of innocent souls who don't have the belief that you believe. I agree that that would be a God of evil, but only one of your own imagining. I do not believe that God gives the slightest hoot who believes in Jesus. It is love that matters. He is a God of Love and those who know love know Him.

If that describes the God of Love then it sounds like Hitler was more loving than the God of a never ending Auschwitz where one isn't even allowed death for release like the gulags.

This is based on a bigotted notion of God, a god that requires certain intellectual beliefs in order to grant salvation. God doesn't give a damn about what anyone believes intellectually, unless those intellectual beliefs interfere with one's copacity to love. Intellectual beliefs are anathema to God, they are more likely to incur the wrath of God than to impart salvation. The intellect is an animal beastly thing, Hitler had a very high IQ. Intellect doesn't count for anything, and intelletual beliefs are nonsense in the absense of love.

You are completely missing out on the love of God. You are totally caught up in intellectual beliefs. That is an animalistic and beastly attempt to approach God.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

Let's think of his question like this then:

How can someone who tortures billions for all eternity be better than someone who tortured and killed millions for an extended period of time?

I've removed all negative and positive connotations from that sentence.

 

[Hillsage]

I contradicted this, I stated that I believe that God is love and that Christ, being the incarnation of love, is something that almost everyone believes in deep down inside. There are very few people who do not believe in the power of love, and thus the power of God, even if they think they are an atheist.

I agree, but believing in love has nothing to do with with the salvation process. Quote one verse substantiating your opinion. God defines love scripturally. But the salvation process requires believing in the person and not the personality.

Hitler was a savage beast, the greatest mass murderer in history.

I agree, and Jesus died for him too cause he loved him more than you. You've made that obvious from your heart-felt post.

You contrive God as Hitler if recompense is real because you want to apply the recompense of evil to billions of innocent souls who don't have the belief that you believe.

Restate this, I'm not following you.

I agree that that would be a God of evil, but only one of your own imagining. I do not believe that God gives the slightest hoot who believes in Jesus. It is love that matters.

Everyone has their own particular "imagining" I suppose. I think believing in Jesus is pretty much a NT mandate, and I believe the Holy Spirit inspired that POV.

He is a God of Love and those who know love know Him.

So how do you know that Hitler didn't "know love"...define how that fleshes out since you obviously don't appear to love Hitler.

You are completely missing out on the love of God. You are totally caught up in intellectual beliefs. That is an animalistic and beastly attempt to approach God.

Gee, why don't I feel 'the love' you have either?

 

[LutheranMafia]

Let's think of his question like this then:

How can someone who tortures billions for all eternity be better than someone who tortured and killed millions for an extended period of time?

I completely disagree that God will torture billions. That is based on the assumption that salvation is based on intellectual belief. "God is love and those who know love know God." That has nothing to do with intellectual belief.

You are forcing a choice between two misconceptions, either there is no eternal damnation or billions are damned. That is an absurd juxtiposition. If you realize that the damnation of billions is an absurd proposition that should lead you to question the nature of salvation rather than the nature of damnation. Hitler is damned beyond all hope of salvation, that much should be obvious. But then you go throwing billions of innocent people in with him simply for not having a certain intellectual belief. That is absurd.

 

[LutheranMafia]

I agree, but believing in love has nothing to do with with the salvation process. Quote one verse substantiating your opinion.

Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
1 John 4:7

​

But the salvation process requires believing in the person and not the personality.

You pose one absurdity for another. Either there is no damnation or damnation is caused by a certain intellectual belief then lack of which damns billions. Both of these extreme notions are absurd.

Everyone has their own particular "imagining" I suppose. I think believing in Jesus is pretty much a NT mandate, and I believe the Holy Spirit inspired that POV.

Did Hitler believe in Jesus?

So how do you know that Hitler didn't "know love"...define how that fleshes out since you obviously don't appear to love Hitler.

You seriously believe that Hitler was loving person? This is an excersize in absurdity.

Gee, why don't I feel 'the love' you have either?

The intellect is an animalistic thing, I'm sorry if you think that is unloving, but it is a fact. The intellect is a viscious animalistic beastly thing that is easily lead to a complete void of love.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

"I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Almighty Creator. By fighting the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work."
— Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."
— Adolf Hitler

"The national Government sees in both Christian denominations the most important factor for the maintenance of our society."
— Adolf Hitler, speech at the Reichstag, March 1933

Hitler knew of Jesus, but he clearly didn't follow Jesus. He simply used a name to carry out his own agendas. Of course, this is intellectual knowledge. But he used this intellectual knowledge to affect the emotions of many. So those people's emotional knowledge of love became warped.

The heart of the matter is this then; Who do you consider to be damnable? Who do you consider to be savable?

What if you have an atheist who is actively trying to help people and cares about others and loves them, but hates the idea of God or any kind of creator? Basically, you have someone who emotionally knows love but wants nothing to do with God. This is something I see in quite a few people.

Job spoke of all people going down in peace to the grave (Job 21:13). Job is spoken of as a literal person, or at least mentioned by name throughout the Bible.

Off topic, but...
I can't help but wonder at times if we're all delusional in believing in this God. I claim I have this experience, you claim you have a totally different experience, and another will claim something completely different than us two. I so wish God would just send someone to sort us all out.

 

[Hillsage]

Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
1 John 4:7​

Good verse, I must admit. I do wonder if there is truth deeper than you/us are gleaning with your/our application. For instance, maybe it requires God's opinion as to whether or not you're manifesting His agape/love, and not you just saying you have God's love.

​

You pose one absurdity for another. Either there is no damnation or damnation is caused by a certain intellectual belief then lack of which damns billions. Both of these extreme notions are absurd.

I am not claiming "no damnation",and neither am I claiming "damnation based upon intellectual belief." That's actually your position since you think you can say you have love and therefore that means you know God.

Did Hitler believe in Jesus?

So now you're jumping from "love" being your litmus, to "believing in Jesus". So what side of the fence do you really believe matters?

You seriously believe that Hitler was loving person? This is an excersize in absurdity.

I never said that. I am saying you don't sound like you love him so do you have God's love as mentioned in 1Joh 4:7,8?

The intellect is an animalistic thing, I'm sorry if you think that is unloving, but it is a fact. The intellect is a viscious animalistic beastly thing that is easily lead to a complete void of love.

The carnal mind is a 'beast' in all, but the mind of Christ is what we are all to be striving for, as Christ is formed in us. And I know some real animals that have more love for unlovely people than professing believers. So what's wrong with a dog's "animalistic intellect" and their love for even a Hitler, as opposed to you who claims the love of God, along with what appears to me as an obvious absence of love for Hitler?

Lord Herdsetk

Good quotes and post. Food for thought.

I so wish God would just send someone to sort us all out.

I think He did. We just don't pay enough attention to Him and how he handled things. He loved sinners, and he hated sin and religious spirited people. And he will save sinners and destroy sin once and for all in the future...according to scripture. That got it back on topic.

 

[theWaris1]

besides the point but whoever believes Hitler was the biggest mass murderer ever has not studied much history.

I believe Yahweh can cleanse all the unrighteous