Let's Talk About Hell (2)

[LutheranMafia]

I've said I don't believe in Soul Sleep.
I've explained the difference so that anyone can understand.
You are refusing to even attempt to understand.

I was saying that I undestand now, but you are making points that lend themselves to confusion because of splitting hairs. I was not saying that I still confused about your position, or I would not have acknowledged that there was a confusion on my part.

I am finished responding to your trolls.
Good bye.

Fine, run away little boy.

 

[LutheranMafia]

So, as I was saying, spirit is much more than just the breath coming out of your mouth. Spirits exist independent of physical bodies:

Luke 11:26
And it goes and brings other spirits, seven [of them], more evil than itself, and they enter in, settle down, and dwell there; and the last state of that person is worse than the first.
​

I'm looking for other examples. Now that I finally know what the heck this guy is trying to say I can try to argue against it!

 

[LutheranMafia]

Here is a better example:

1 Samuel 28:15
Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”
​

Clearly Samual is not dead in spirit, his spirit was resting in Sheol.

Here is another good example:

Isaiah 14:9-11
9 The realm of the dead below is all astir to meet you at your coming; it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you all those who were leaders in the world; it makes them rise from their thrones all those who were kings over the nations.
10 They will all respond, they will say to you, “You also have become weak, as we are; you have become like us.”
​

Clearly the dead are not completely unconscious.

Ah, but just as I finally figured out what Timothew was talking about he has run away from the debate. He couldn't take the heat and had to get out of the kitchen.

 

[Timothew]

So, as I was saying, spirit is much more than just the breath coming out of your mouth. Spirits exist independent of physical bodies:

Luke 11:26
And it goes and brings other spirits, seven [of them], more evil than itself, and they enter in, settle down, and dwell there; and the last state of that person is worse than the first.
​

I'm looking for other examples. Now that I finally know what the heck this guy is trying to say I can try to argue against it!

OK, I'm ready to come back and endure your trolling.
So you are a Spiritist! I thought Spiritism was debunked with the coming of the 20th Century.

It's nice to meet someone with quaint ideas.

 

[FredVB]

My comment was in response to Fred VB's post. He was wondering how anyone could stand for judgment if they were as dead as I said they were, without consciousness. Perhaps some of you who believe in eternal torment can inform Fred that it is also your belief that the dead will be resurrected and stand for judgment.

You answered part of what I said, ignored the other part and went on. I am pointing out that those who were resurrected and face condemnation standing before God are still called dead. This after the resurrection I agree to.

 

[Timothew]

You answered part of what I said, ignored the other part and went on. I am pointing out that those who were resurrected and face condemnation standing before God are still called dead. This after the resurrection I agree to.

Obviously I do not believe that those "dead people" are not conscious. I believe that after they are resurrected, their consciousness returns to them.

Wasn't your objection that the dead are not unconscious because these dead people are not unconscious? I was pointing out that the resurrection will return dead people to consciousness, so the objection is invalid.

 

[FredVB]

Obviously I do not believe that those "dead people" are not conscious. I believe that after they are resurrected, their consciousness returns to them.

Wasn't your objection that the dead are not unconscious because these dead people are not unconscious? I was pointing out that the resurrection will return dead people to consciousness, so the objection is invalid.

The objection is valid, because you say the dead are always unconscious, this case they, still being called dead, are conscious. It is further to be noted that what you were saying would mean the dead are called back to consciousness to be judged and thrown back to a termination of consciousness. And how would fair judgment for sinners of different degrees be seen in that?

 

[Timothew]

The objection is valid, because you say the dead are always unconscious, this case they, still being called dead, are conscious. It is further to be noted that what you were saying would mean the dead are called back to consciousness to be judged and thrown back to a termination of consciousness. And how would fair judgment for sinners of different degrees be seen in that?

Once they are resurrected, they are no longer dead, correct?
What do you mean by "And how would fair judgment for sinners of different degrees be seen in that?"
Don't you believe that the wages of sin is death? Or do you believe in hotter hells for the most wicked and cooler flames for the least wicked?

 

[AllOrNothing]

This thread was split automatically after 1000 replies and this thread has been automatically created.

We know hell exists because it is - we - who create it..


"Hell is other people"


Jean Paul Sartre

 

[LutheranMafia]

But God will redeem me from the power of Sheol (the place of the dead); for He will receive me.
Psalms 49:15

So, not everyone goes to Sheol, which is elsewhere referred to as the place of forgetfullness.

The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.
Proverbs 15:24

And again, some go down while others go up after death.

 

[Timothew]

But God will redeem me from the power of Sheol (the place of the dead); for He will receive me.
Psalms 49:15

So, not everyone goes to Sheol, which is elsewhere referred to as the place of forgetfullness.

The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.
Proverbs 15:24

And again, some go down while others go up after death.

According to this, God redeems us from Sheol, so in order to be redeemed, one must first go to Sheol, the place of the dead. In order to depart Sheol, one must have been in Sheol. Sheol is the grave.

 

[Der Alte]

According to this, God redeems us from Sheol, so in order to be redeemed, one must first go to Sheol, the place of the dead. In order to depart Sheol, one must have been in Sheol. Sheol is the grave.

The definition of [size=+1]שאל/sheol” from the world renowned Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew-English Lexicon of the Old Testament.

שְׁאוֹל [size=+1]שאל[/size] n.f. (appar. m.) Sheol, underworld — 1. the underworld, [size=+1]תַּחְתִּית[/size] [size=+1]‘שׁ[/size], [size=+1]מִתַּחַת[/size]; under mts. and sea; and bars; personif. (||[size=+1]מות[/size]) as insatiable monster; as said (fig.) to have snares, [size=+1]‘שׁ[/size] [size=+1]חֶבְלֵי[/size] (opp. [size=+1]לְמָעְלָה[/size]) (v. supra); dark, gloomy, without return; all being alike; without work or knowledge or wisdom. 2. condition of righteous and wicked disting. In [size=+1]‘שׁ[/size]: a. wicked; death is their shepherd, without power and honour they waste away; [size=+1]‘שׁ[/size] consumes them as drought water; righteous dread it because no praise or presence of God there (as in temple); deliverance from it a blessing. b. righteous shall not be abandoned. 3. later distinction of places in [size=+1]‘שׁ[/size][bless and do not curse]: a. depths of [size=+1]‘שׁ[/size] for sensualist. 4. [size=+1]‘שׁ[/size] fig. of extreme degradation in sin; as place of exile for Israel.

[size=-1]Whitaker, R., Brown, F., Driver, S. (. R., & Briggs, C. A. (. A. 1997, c1906. The Abridged Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew-English Lexicon of the Old Testament : From A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament by Francis Brown, S.R. Driver and Charles Briggs, based on the lexicon of Wilhelm Gesenius. Edited by Richard Whitaker (Princeton Theological Seminary). Text provided by Princeton Theological Seminary. (electronic ed.) . Logos Research Systems, Inc.: Oak Harbor WA[/size]​

The ancient Jews considered it to be synonymous with Gehenna.

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA

When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10).

JewishEncyclopedia.com - GEHENNA​

[/SIZE]

 

[Timothew]

The definition of [SIZE=+1]שאל/sheol” from the world renowned Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew-English Lexicon of the Old Testament.

שְׁאוֹל [SIZE=+1]שאל[/SIZE] n.f. (appar. m.) Sheol, underworld — 1. the underworld, [SIZE=+1]תַּחְתִּית[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]‘שׁ[/SIZE], [SIZE=+1]מִתַּחַת[/SIZE]; under mts. and sea; and bars; personif. (||[SIZE=+1]מות[/SIZE]) as insatiable monster; as said (fig.) to have snares, [SIZE=+1]‘שׁ[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]חֶבְלֵי[/SIZE] (opp. [SIZE=+1]לְמָעְלָה[/SIZE]) (v. supra); dark, gloomy, without return; all being alike; without work or knowledge or wisdom. 2. condition of righteous and wicked disting. In [SIZE=+1]‘שׁ[/SIZE]: a. wicked; death is their shepherd, without power and honour they waste away; [SIZE=+1]‘שׁ[/SIZE] consumes them as drought water; righteous dread it because no praise or presence of God there (as in temple); deliverance from it a blessing. b. righteous shall not be abandoned. 3. later distinction of places in [SIZE=+1]‘שׁ[/SIZE][bless and do not curse]: a. depths of [SIZE=+1]‘שׁ[/SIZE] for sensualist. 4. [SIZE=+1]‘שׁ[/SIZE] fig. of extreme degradation in sin; as place of exile for Israel.

[SIZE=-1]Whitaker, R., Brown, F., Driver, S. (. R., & Briggs, C. A. (. A. 1997, c1906. The Abridged Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew-English Lexicon of the Old Testament : From A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament by Francis Brown, S.R. Driver and Charles Briggs, based on the lexicon of Wilhelm Gesenius. Edited by Richard Whitaker (Princeton Theological Seminary). Text provided by Princeton Theological Seminary. (electronic ed.) . Logos Research Systems, Inc.: Oak Harbor WA[/SIZE]
​

The ancient Jews considered it to be synonymous with Gehenna.

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA

When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10).

JewishEncyclopedia.com - GEHENNA
​

[/SIZE]

Jeremiah 7:30-34 (NIV) shows the Valley of Hinnom (or Gehenna) as a place where dead people were, dead bodies. To be cast into Gehenna means to be dead.

The people of Judah have done evil in my eyes, declares the Lord. They have set up their detestable idols in the house that bears my Name and have defiled it. They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind. So beware, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when people will no longer call it Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter, for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room. Then the carcasses of this people will become food for the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and there will be no one to frighten them away. I will bring an end to the sounds of joy and gladness and to the voices of bride and bridegroom in the towns of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem, for the land will become desolate.

 

[Der Alte]

Jeremiah 7:30-34 (NIV) shows the Valley of Hinnom (or Gehenna) as a place where dead people were, dead bodies. To be cast into Gehenna means to be dead.

The people of Judah have done evil in my eyes, declares the Lord. They have set up their detestable idols in the house that bears my Name and have defiled it. They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind. So beware, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when people will no longer call it Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter, for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room. Then the carcasses of this people will become food for the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and there will be no one to frighten them away. I will bring an end to the sounds of joy and gladness and to the voices of bride and bridegroom in the towns of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem, for the land will become desolate.​

Are you so foolish that you believe that one out-of-context passage proves your assertion? Where does this passage says Gehenna was "a place where dead people were, dead bodies. To be cast into Gehenna means to be dead?" That the apostate Jews who sacrificed their children to Molech, and were killed by God does NOT state or show in any way that "To be cast into Gehenna means to be dead." So you got NO, ZERO, NONE evidence for you assertion!

OTOH I have shown you repeatedly that the ancient Jews, before and during the time of Jesus, believed that Gehenna was a place prepared by God for the punishment of the unrighteous.

Previous post, from the Jewish Encyclopedia, the Jewish view of eternal, unending punishment of the unrighteous. Click Link!

Previous post citing the Talmud, the teaching of Hillel and Shammai in Israel, at the time of Jesus, teaching on eternal punishment. Click Link!

 

[Timothew]

Are you so foolish that you believe that one out-of-context passage proves your assertion? Where does this passage says Gehenna was "a place where dead people were, dead bodies. To be cast into Gehenna means to be dead?"

It says the dead are there right here:
"for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room. Then the carcasses of this people will become food for the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth."
Topheth is Gehenna.

I am not so foolish that I think one passage proves my assertion. The full context of the Bible indicates that people die and go to the grave. This passage shows that the Jews thought of Gehenna as a place of the dead. See where it says they will bury the dead. No one is burying ghosts! See where it says carcasses? These are not living carcasses. These are dead carcasses. There are so many that there is not enough room to bury them all. The late comers are piled on top. The birds and beasts (and the worms!) come and eat them.

You know, not every bible passage that disagrees with your established position is "out-of-context".

Some Jews of the period believed that ghostly spirits hang around the underworld. That is to be expected after Alexander conquered the middle east and brought greek ideas in. That does not mean that they are right about "the spirit world". I've read your links and they are split in half. Half seem to indicate a shadow life of death in the underworld and half show that the dead are fully dead waiting for resurrection. There wasn't a consensus back then, either. You wouldn't expect to find only one position in a land full of Jews, Greeks, and Romans, also influenced by Persians and Egyptians. Even among just the Jews there were factions. There were Pharisees, Saducees, Essenes, Samaritans, and Zealots and they all had different ideas.

I believe God inspired the Bible, and the truth is recorded there. From all of the ideas of the time, God selected the truth to be written in the Bible.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Are you so foolish that you believe that one out-of-context passage proves your assertion?

I agree with you in general, but invective like this aren't necessary.

 

[Der Alte]

It says the dead are there right here:
"for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room. Then the carcasses of this people will become food for the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth."
Topheth is Gehenna.

The dead from one incident were buried in the valley of Topheth/Hinnom. This does NOT say that the valley would perpetually be a place of the dead and it certainly says nothing about the dead being burned there. OTOH Jesus did say the fire in Gehenna is not quenched and the worm does not die!

I am not so foolish that I think one passage proves my assertion. The full context of the Bible indicates that people die and go to the grave. This passage shows that the Jews thought of Gehenna as a place of the dead. See where it says they will bury the dead. No one is burying ghosts! See where it says carcasses? These are not living carcasses. These are dead carcasses. There are so many that there is not enough room to bury them all. The late comers are piled on top. The birds and beasts (and the worms!) come and eat them.

You are correct the dead from one (1) incident were buried in the valley. NOTHING in the passage states or implies that the valley was then and ever after considered a "place of the dead!" And your out-of-context proof text says nothing about fire! Dead bodies were buried all over Israel! But Jesus said that Gehenna was a place where the fire is not quenched and the word does not die!

You know, not every bible passage that disagrees with your established position is "out-of-context".

That may or may not be true but the verse you are citing certainly is out-of-context. It only describes what happened in one incident God destroyed the apostates who sacrificed their children to Molech, and their bodies were buried. It does NOT say as you keep claiming that Gehinnom was considered "a place of the dead" any more than any other place where bodies were buried. And is says nothing about bodies being burned!

Some Jews of the period believed that ghostly spirits hang around the underworld. That is to be expected after Alexander conquered the middle east and brought greek ideas in. That does not mean that they are right about "the spirit world". I've read your links and they are split in half. Half seem to indicate a shadow life of death in the underworld and half show that the dead are fully dead waiting for resurrection. There wasn't a consensus back then, either.

Irrelevant! Ignoring the fact that there was a scripture based widespread belief that Gehenna was a place prepared by God of fiery punishment of the unrighteous will not make it go away, and Jesus did not refute that belief but reinforced it.

You wouldn't expect to find only one position in a land full of Jews, Greeks, and Romans, also influenced by Persians and Egyptians. Even among just the Jews there were factions. There were Pharisees, Saducees, Essenes, Samaritans, and Zealots and they all had different ideas.

Irrelevant, ignores the fact that the Jews based their belief in Gehenna as a place of fiery punishment on scripture. Also Jesus reinforced the belief that Gehenna was a place where the fire was not quenched and the worm did not die.

I believe God inspired the Bible, and the truth is recorded there. From all of the ideas of the time, God selected the truth to be written in the Bible.

And you ignore everything in the Bible which contradicts your assumptions/presuppositions.

 

[Der Alte]

I agree with you in general, but invective like this aren't necessary.

How is it invective to ask a question? I would not have to ask the question if I had not been putting up with the same kind of evasion, from the same person, for months.

 

[LutheranMafia]

According to this, God redeems us from Sheol, so in order to be redeemed, one must first go to Sheol, the place of the dead. In order to depart Sheol, one must have been in Sheol.

Read Pslms 49:15 again, it says nothing about going to Sheol, it says that he will be redeem from the power of Sheol, in constrats to verse 14 which says that others will go to Sheol. To be redeemed from the power of Sheol means no to go there.

14 They are like sheep and are destined to die; death will be their shepherd (but the upright will prevail over them in the morning). Their forms will decay in the grave, far from their princely mansions.
15 But God will redeem me from the power of Sheol; for He will receive me.
Psalms 49:14-15
​

Sheol is the grave.

Yes, I know.

Here are some other verses that show that there is a consciousness in death:

13 They spend their years in prosperity and go down to the grave in peace.[a]
Job 21:13
​

What does it mean to go down to Sheol in peace as opposed to being slain by the sword (many of the references to Sheol speak of the uncircumsized and those slain by the sword who don't fare as well in Sheol)?

15And Samuel said to Saul, Why have you disturbed me to bring me up?
1 Samual 28:15
​

So how could Samual be brought up from Sheol if the dead cease to exist until the Resurrection?

 

[Timothew]

How is it invective to ask a question? I would not have to ask the question if I had not been putting up with the same kind of evasion, from the same person, for months.

I don't mind your invective Dear Der Alter. Grin.
We have been at this for months. I don't mean to be evasive at all. You and I just disagree. Nuthin wrong with that. I think it's interesting. Disagreeing with someone who has so much knowledge helps me grow in my own knowledge. It keeps me sharp.