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Let's Talk About Hell (2)

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Timothew

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That sounds like you are arguing for annihilation of the soul. How is what you are arguing for not annihilation of the soul?
'Cause of the assumption inherent in the question.

You assume the soul is eternal, for it to end it must be annihilated.

I assume the soul is the life, given by God. It ends at death, UNLESS it is resurrected. No need to say ANNIHILATED, a life without life is no life. Most people call this "death."

(the greek word psyche can be translated either life or soul)
 
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LutheranMafia

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Have you ever consider that dying could be an eternal process? What if the process of dying involved the continuous breaking-up and pulling apart of the soul such that it expands and breaks-up into finer and finer pieces in a never ending process of the dissolution of the soul?
 
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Timothew

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Have you ever consider that dying could be an eternal process? What if the process of dying involved the continuous breaking-up and pulling apart of the soul such that it expands and breaks-up into finer and finer pieces in a never ending process of the dissolution of the soul?

Is that what you've experienced?
My grandfather died peacefully, in his sleep.
My grandmother died in a car crash.

Neither of them died as a result of "the continuous breaking-up and barbarbar dissolution of the soul."

I don't have one set of definitions that I use for "religious stuff" and another for "real stuff." Life = Life. Death = Death.
 
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LutheranMafia

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Is that what you've experienced?
I was talking about the death experience of evil people, so no.

My grandfather died peacefully, in his sleep.
My grandmother died in a car crash.

Neither of them died as a result of "the continuous breaking-up and barbarbar dissolution of the soul."
Is this a suggestion that they were not saved? The subject we were discussing was about the afterlife of the unsaved.

I don't have one set of definitions that I use for "religious stuff" and another for "real stuff." Life = Life. Death = Death.
Hey, I'm not the one who can't acknowledge my own concepts. You clearly believe in annihilation of the spirit, and yet when stated this way you deny it, although when stated in another exactly equivolent way you acknowledge it. It is you who has two definitions, not me.

The afterlife of at least some evil people is clearly eternal suffering, according to many verses in the Bible. I don't see how you can deny this, the references to eternal suffering are so numerous. If you deny this you might as well just throw the whole Bible out.
 
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LutheranMafia

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Clearly? Clearly the wage of sin is death,
Clearly whoever believes in Jesus will have eternal life,
Clearly whoever doesn't will perish.
Clearly.
And clearly the scriptures speak over and over and over again of eternal suffering. What do you say about those verses? (You can't just pick and choose which verses you are going to accept and which you are going to reject.)
 
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FredVB

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You assume the soul is eternal, for it to end it must be annihilated.

I assume the soul is the life, given by God. It ends at death, UNLESS it is resurrected. No need to say ANNIHILATED, a life without life is no life. Most people call this "death."

Timothew, You have said several times your understanding that death means no more consciousness. Here you appeal to what death means to most people. What the Bible says is not subject to that. Look even again at what is said relating to it in Revelation 20:

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works

Those that were raised here, not being to incorruption, are not said to be alive anywhere. It is the dead that are standing before God. And then it is the dead that are judged. How would those that never have consciousness again be judged, let alone be standing before God to be judged. And then it was said:

14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire.This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Why would those that have no consciousness ever anymore after they stand there and be judged be thrown to the lake of fire, which was there for those who will be tormented day and night forever and ever? If we grant that those of that resurrection are brought back to consciousness, they are still called the dead, and are cast to the lake of fire. Why be brought back from what would have been no more consciousness, and thrown to the second death, if that would then be no more consciousness? Your definitions do not make sense with this.
 
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Timothew

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Timothew, You have said several times your understanding that death means no more consciousness. Here you appeal to what death means to most people. What the Bible says is not subject to that. Look even again at what is said relating to it in Revelation 20:

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works

Those that were raised here, not being to incorruption, are not said to be alive anywhere. It is the dead that are standing before God. And then it is the dead that are judged. How would those that never have consciousness again be judged, let alone be standing before God to be judged. And then it was said:

14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire.This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Why would those that have no consciousness ever anymore after they stand there and be judged be thrown to the lake of fire, which was there for those who will be tormented day and night forever and ever? If we grant that those of that resurrection are brought back to consciousness, they are still called the dead, and are cast to the lake of fire. Why be brought back from what would have been no more consciousness, and thrown to the second death, if that would then be no more consciousness? Your definitions do not make sense with this.

Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice. (John 5:28) Obviously they do not have consciousness while they are dead. But after they are resurrected to life, they can stand before Jesus to receive a reward of eternal life or condemnation to the second death. Sometimes I think that people do not even try to understand what I am writing.
 
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Timothew

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And clearly the scriptures speak over and over and over again of eternal suffering. What do you say about those verses? (You can't just pick and choose which verses you are going to accept and which you are going to reject.)
Tell me which verses you are thinking about that speak of eternal suffering.

I object to this statement:
(You can't just pick and choose which verses you are going to accept and which you are going to reject.)
Why can't you be nice?
 
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LutheranMafia

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Obviously they do not have consciousness while they are dead.
That is the precise definition of "soul sleep" such as the SDA believes. You denied believing in soul sleep before, so your comments are very unclear. The vast majority of Christians do not believe in soul sleep, so the obviously part is completely untrue.

Tell me which verses you are thinking about that speak of eternal suffering.
Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.


Revelation 14:9-11
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.'

I object to this statement:
Why can't you be nice?
I apologize.
 
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Timothew

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That is the precise definition of "soul sleep" such as the SDA believes. You denied believing in soul sleep before, so your comments are very unclear. The vast majority of Christians do not believe in soul sleep, so the obviously part is completely untrue.


Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Revelation 14:9-11
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.'


I apologize.

In order for the "soul" to sleep when a person is dead, there must be a "soul" that survives the death of the body, then that "soul" falls asleep. This is nothing like what I believe.

Once again, (and it seems odd that I have to say this) death is eternal. These go away into eternal punishment. The punishment is death, this is eternal. The only way death is not eternal is if a person receives resurrection into eternal life.

Your understanding of Revelation 14:11 places this verse in opposition to the rest of the NT.
Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

This says destruction, not eternal torment.

Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.

Matthew 13:30
First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.


John 8:21
Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note: Death, not eternal torment.

1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Destroy, not torture alive forever.

Galations 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.

The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

Hebrews 10:26-27,
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.

Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

James 1:15b
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
Death, not eternal torture.

James 4:12a
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
Destroy, not eternally torture.

2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
Destruction, not eternal torment.

2 Peter 3:7-9
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Peter tells what will happent to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?

Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

Jude 10
But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
Revelation 2:11b
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

Revelation 18:8
For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).

Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.
 
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Timothew

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That is the precise definition of "soul sleep" such as the SDA believes. You denied believing in soul sleep before, so your comments are very unclear. The vast majority of Christians do not believe in soul sleep, so the obviously part is completely untrue.
My comment was in response to Fred VB's post. He was wondering how anyone could stand for judgment if they were as dead as I said they were, without consciousness. Perhaps some of you who believe in eternal torment can inform Fred that it is also your belief that the dead will be resurrected and stand for judgment.
 
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LutheranMafia

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In order for the "soul" to sleep when a person is dead, there must be a "soul" that survives the death of the body, then that "soul" falls asleep. This is nothing like what I believe.
OK, call it spirit sleep, same thing. Whatever you call it, it is precisely the same process as described by SDA soul sleep. I agree to limited soul sleep, but I don't believe that everyone is like that. Soul sleep is for those who go to Sheol, not for those who go to Heaven.

Once again, (and it seems odd that I have to say this) death is eternal.
Well now you are the one getting snippy. It seems odd to me that you are so slippery in defining your position.

These go away into eternal punishment. The punishment is death, this is eternal. The only way death is not eternal is if a person receives resurrection into eternal life.

...

They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.
Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

We have three parts, not just two. What happens to the spirit? There is no third death as there should be if the spirit were destroyed too.
 
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Timothew

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OK, call it spirit sleep, same thing. Whatever you call it, it is precisely the same process as described by SDA soul sleep. I agree to limited soul sleep, but I don't believe that everyone is like that. Soul sleep is for those who go to Sheol, not for those who go to Heaven.

Well now you are the one getting snippy. It seems odd to me that you are so slippery in defining your position.

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
We have three parts, not just two. What happens to the spirit? There is no third death as there should be if the spirit were destroyed too.
Your spirit is your pneuma, your breath. Dead dudes don't breathe.

Sorry for getting snippy. I'm sure that you understand. I do not believe in Soul Sleep, Spirit Sleep, Breath Sleep, Ghost Sleep, or any other kind of sleep other than the natural sleep that most people have every night. People who die are dead, not asleep. When Paul says "we shall not precede those who have fallen asleep," he is using asleep to mean those who have died. Body dead, soul dead, spirit dead, dead dead. Breathless even. This is the death that Jesus is able to raise us up out of. Not sleep. If it were just sleep, anyone could wake you up. If you shake a sleeping person, they wake up. This won't work with dead people. As Miracle Max says, "with all dead there's usually only one thing you can do. Go through his clothes and look for loose change."

Or we can hope for a miracle, the resurrection. Think it'll work?
 
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Timothew

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How much clearer can I say it? I don't believe that the soul sleeps apart from the body. Is it splitting hairs to say this?

How would you like to be mispresented?
Can I say that you believe a person's ghost flys up to the clouds and lives there forever? And if you say you don't believe that can I insist that you do, and you are just splitting hairs by saying heaven is different than the clouds?

There is a huge difference between the unconsciousness of sleep and the unconsciousness of death.
 
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LutheranMafia

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Sleep is being used as an analogy to death. How hard is that to understand?

When you deny that you believe in soul sleep, even though your concept is identical, it creates a lot of confusion over what your position is, so don't be surprised that people are confused about your position. It is your own fault.
 
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LutheranMafia

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Your spirit is your pneuma, your breath. Dead dudes don't breathe.
As to this, pneuma and ruah (Hebrew for spirit) are much more than just the air that comes out of your mouth. It sounds to me like you don't really believe in the existence of the spirit.
 
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