Let's suppose God did....

[Gadarene]

You are a unique individual and as such, my comments were not directed towards you, but more to the atheists who claim that they do not believe in God because there is no evidence but would hastily acknowledge His existence if they were given evidence.

I know very well your views, and thank you for your honesty and transparency. I wish there were more people here like you who were not afraid to say what was on their mind.

Er.......that's just how Skavau described himself. What is the difference between him and the "atheists who claim that they do not believe in God because there is no evidence but would hastily acknowledge His existence if they were given evidence."

 

[Elioenai26]

Er.......that's just how Skavau described himself. What is the difference between him and the "atheists who claim that they do not believe in God because there is no evidence but would hastily acknowledge His existence if they were given evidence."

He is unique in that he is a self-proclaimed anti-theist....

Surely you do not mean to suggest that every other atheist here is actually an anti-theist like Skavau do you?

I mean personally, I think saying one is an anti-theist is a little more intellectually honest if that is what one really is instead of hiding behind this whole "I don't believe because there is no evidence, but would happily believe and joyfully do so if I were presented with evidence..." spiel that many atheists are propagating here.

If you hate God, just say so, but please, if anyone here is hiding behind the whole "I am an honest seeker who is unconvinced" charade and is afraid to say what is truly on their heart, please understand that it is far better to be honest than to intend to deceive.

 

[Gadarene]

He is unique in that he is an anti-theist....

Surely you do not mean to suggest that every other atheist here is actually an anti-theist like Skavau do you?

Don't be obtuse.

Anti-theism doesn't rule out acknowledging the existence of a deity. It is an opposition to theism, whether true or not. And he JUST posted that he would acknowledge God's existence if evidenced, and he is not a positive-atheist, unless I'm mistaken.

 

[Davian]

A person cannot be convinced of something if they are unwilling to be convinced. I am sure you will agree with me on this point.

If I go to the doctor's office for a routine physical and am informed by the doctor after being examined, that I have breast cancer (yes men can have breast cancer), but do not want to accept that inconvenient truth, then I am not going to believe him even if he gives me evidence in the form of test results that state I do have cancer. You see, if I do not want to believe his report for fear, or whatever the reason may be, I can rationalize it away and say: "Well, there must be some simple mistake....must be an error with the testing equipment, or there must be some other explanation, etc. etc....

See the point I am getting at?

As horrible as it would be to be told that one has cancer, I can imagine it would be much more horrible for someone to be given evidence that God exists if said person was an atheist who has spent their entire life living as if God did not exist. For the atheist who sees God as a phenomenally wicked, celestial tyrant, spoilsport, cosmic authority, and killjoy, I could not imagine them receiving any more nightmarish and horrific news than that God actually existed!

This would be like presenting clearcut evidence to a child that the boogeyman was really real, or that the monster under their bed was really real.

Do you have clearcut evidence that the boogeyman is real, or that there is a monster under my bed?

In either scenario, the natural defense mechanism would be denial. The response would be akin to: "SURELY THIS CANNOT BE TRUE!"

So you see....

Simply ask yourself what your response would be if you were convinced God existed....

What would your response be if He appeared before you right now and said: "I am!"

What would you do? What would you say?

No problem. At that point, I would be a believer, and from what I understand, anything goes, as long as you believe. Serial killers, and all that.

The truth is, God has already told you He existed in several ways. But what do people like you do? What is your response?

No, that is not "truth", that is your "opinion", unless you intended to say "hypothetically, God has already told you..."

Like the man in denial, you dismiss it as rubbish and explain it away in order to justify not dealing with the real issue at hand. The issue is that you are a sinner who needs a Savior. This is the real issue, righteousness and unrighteousness, light and dark, love and hate.

Or, "sin" is a man-made, fabricated problem, for which your (man-made) religion claims to have the only solution.

And this is where the work of the apologist comes to an end, for only God Himself can draw a man unto Himself and make him to see his true condition.

Unless God is only a character in a book, and the alleged "true condition" is a work of fiction.

 

[Elioenai26]

Unless God is only a character in a book, and the alleged "true condition" is a work of fiction.

Don't bank on it.

Once you die, there is no changing what has been done.

Either what I say is true or it is not.

If it is not, then you have no worries.

If it is, you literally have hell to pay.

 

[Gadarene]

Don't bank on it.

Once you die, there is no changing what has been done.

Either what I say is true or it is not.

If it is not, then you have no worries.

If it is, you literally have hell to pay.

Which is why I'm personally not bothered whether God does exist or not. If he does as described by people like you, he can send me to hell, and I'll be glad to keep my integrity.

 

[Elioenai26]

Which is why I'm personally not bothered whether God does exist or not. If he does as described by people like you, he can send me to hell, and I'll be glad to keep my integrity.

I can actually say with all honesty that this is the most profound and transparent thing I have heard you say in the many months I have been here. I thank you for sharing with us how you really feel...

I can talk at length with people like you and Skavau because you are honest and transparent. I know where you stand and knowing where you stand makes it easier to engage in amicable discussion even though our views might be different.

There is much I wish to learn from people like you and Skavau, particularly your misgivings regarding Christ. It helps me to hear your misgivings in your own words.

 

[Davian]

Don't bank on it.

Once you die, there is no changing what has been done.

Either what I say is true or it is not.

If it is not, then you have no worries.

If it is, you literally have hell to pay.

Are we talking boogeyman or God at this point?

Do you concede that, as I noted, your opinion is not truth?

 

[Elioenai26]

Are we talking boogeyman or God at this point?

Do you concede that, as I noted, your opinion is not truth?

We are talking about God at this point and my opinion is worth nothing, only what God has said, that must we obey.....

Because He wants only the best for us....

And I know that one day you will see this as we all will...

 

[Davian]

We are talking about God at this point and my opinion is worth nothing, only what God has said, that must we obey.....

Because He wants only the best for us....

And I know that one day you will see this as we all will...

And how do you know what God has said? Do you hear voices? Or are you going to preach the bible at me?

 

[Elioenai26]

And how do you know what God has said? Do you hear voices? Or are you going to preach the bible at me?

I believe God has spoken through His prophets, and most importantly, through His Son Jesus Christ.

 

[Davian]

I believe God has spoken through His prophets, and most importantly, through His Son Jesus Christ.

So we are back to your opinion, then.

 

[Elioenai26]

So we are back to your opinion, then.

It is my opinion that God has spoken through His Son Jesus, yes.

Now surely you will tell me that opinions count for little in the way or persuading an unbeliever.

I would reply, that may be true, it all depends on the person. For you that might be insufficient, for someone else, that might be enough....

It is up to God to illuminate the heart and mind of sinful man....

My words, my opinions alone have no weight of power to bring about this illumination, so I am released from that duty.

 

[Gadarene]

It is up to God to illuminate the heart and mind of sinful man....

And if he chooses not to, then he has no justification to send them to hell.

My words, my opinions alone have no weight of power to bring about this illumination, so I am released from that duty.

Nope, repeating the same tired arguments ad nauseam will reflect badly on the god-concept who you yet claim supposedly called you and inspired you, regardless of whether you accept your responsibility in this or not.

Given the general ineptitude of Christians to defend their beliefs, I suspect if your god does exist he's not actually that serious about saving people.

 

[Elioenai26]

And if he chooses not to, then he has no justification to send them to hell.

I believe God is merciful and I believe that everyone who has ever lived has been invited by God to enter into a personal relationship with Him at one point in there life or another. Knowing what I know of my Father, I cannot hold to any other position than this.

Nope, repeating the same tired arguments ad nauseam will reflect badly on the god-concept who you yet claim supposedly called you and inspired you, regardless of whether you accept your responsibility in this or not.

I have no power in and of myself, but my sufficiency comes from Him.

Given the general ineptitude of Christians to defend their beliefs, I suspect if your god does exist he's not actually that serious about saving people.

I am happy to inform you that your suspicions are unfounded. For I, like the Apostle Paul, can honestly say that I am the chiefest of sinners and yet God saved me. He saved me. Someone who was dead to rights and completely worthy of damnation....

He saved me so that in me, the riches of His grace and mercy might be made manifest to all those who had known my former manner of life.

 

[Gadarene]

I believe God is merciful and I believe that everyone who has ever lived has been invited by God to enter into a personal relationship with Him at one point in there life or another. Knowing what I know of my Father, I cannot hold to any other position than this.

You could try something astonishingly different and actually listen to what other people say their experiences are (or to be more accurate, what they aren't) rather than assume they must have had a particular experience because magic book done said so.

I have no power in and of myself, but my sufficiency comes from Him.

Then us non-believers are royally boned if you're presenting the best defence we can hope for.

I am happy to inform you that your suspicions are unfounded. For I, like the Apostle Paul, can honestly say that I am the chiefest of sinners and yet God saved me. He saved me. Someone who was dead to rights and completely worthy of damnation....

He saved me so that in me, the riches of His grace and mercy might be made manifest to all those who had known my former manner of life.

As I said, it's a shame he couldn't save your apologetics in the process.

 

[Davian]

I believe God is merciful and I believe that everyone who has ever lived has been invited by God to enter into a personal relationship with Him at one point in there life or another. Knowing what I know of my Father, I cannot hold to any other position than this.





I have no power in and of myself, but my sufficiency comes from Him.



I am happy to inform you that your suspicions are unfounded. For I, like the Apostle Paul, can honestly say that I am the chiefest of sinners and yet God saved me. He saved me. Someone who was dead to rights and completely worthy of damnation....

He saved me so that in me, the riches of His grace and mercy might be made manifest to all those who had known my former manner of life.

When all else fails, preach.

 

[Elioenai26]

You could try something astonishingly different and actually listen to what other people say their experiences are (or to be more accurate, what they aren't) rather than assume they must have had a particular experience because magic book done said so.

I never have had much use for magic books. Neither do those who have an encounter with God.

"Many also of those who had believed kept coming, confessing and disclosing their practices. And many of those who practiced magic brought their books together and began burning them in the sight of everyone; and they counted up the price of them and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver." The Acts of the Apostles, chapter 19, verses 18 and 19.

Then us non-believers are royally boned if you're presenting the best defence we can hope for.

I agree. The best I have is nothing at all to give to you. That is why I point you to the One who can supply all your needs and make your joy complete.

As I said, it's a shame he couldn't save your apologetics in the process.

On the contrary, the fact that I am here on this forum talking with you is due only to His grace and mercy, for if it were not for Him, I could care less whether you died today. But God is merciful. My less than feeble attempts at defending the faith, in my sight is evidence of His goodness, and in His sight precious, as weak as I may be, I would rather boast in my weakness, for then, He can make me strong.

 

[Elioenai26]

When all else fails, preach.

When all else fails, I realize that I could not succeed in the first place and should not have even tried. For I can do nothing in and of myself. But my sufficiency comes from Him.

 

[Davian]

When all else fails, I realize that I could not succeed in the first place and should not have even tried. For I can do nothing in and of myself. But my sufficiency comes from Him.

Your level of success here appears to be commensurate with one that is relying on a fictional character in a book.