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Let's suppose God did....

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I can accept Jesus was real, but I'm not sure why I should accept that Jesus was God just because the Bible says so.
There is also the Indirect Evidence shown by the catacombs of His resurrection, and (Even more upon last post, for example...) by historians who saw Christians and what they believed.

For instance....

"TACITUS: (55-117) A.D.)
Cornelius Tactitus is regarded as the greatest historian of ancient Rome. Writing on the reign of Nero, Tacitus alludes to the death of Christ and to the existence of Christians in Rome.
“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of on of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the word find their center and become popular.”

PLINY THE YOUNGER: (112 A.D.)
Pliny was governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor who wrote a letter to Trajan regarding how to deal with Christians who worshiped Christ. These letters concern an episode which marks the first time the Roman government acknowledged Christianity as a religion separate from Judaism, and set a precedent for the massive persecution of Christians that takes place in the second and third centuries.
“They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sand in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath not to any wicked deeds, not to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor to deny any trust when they should be call to deliver it up, after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food —but food of an ordinary but and innocent kind.”

(Here Christians are witnessed praying to Jesus and singing to Him, as He IS God, it also confirms Jesus's commandments in Matthew, Mark, and Luke when He speaks to the young man)

BABYLONIAN TALMUD: (Completed in the 6th Century A.D.)
The Babylonian Talmud is a Rabbinic commentary of the Jewish scriptures (Tanach: Old Testament). They are a look into what is a hostile source was saying about Jesus. They could not deny the miracles but claimed that it was sorcery rather than admit to what was a known fact.
“ On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, “He is going forth to be stoned because He has practiced sorcery (an admission of his miracles) and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor let him come forward and plead on his behalf. But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the even of the Passover.”
The Babylonian Talmud, vol. III, Sanhedrin 43a

LUCIAN: (120-180 A.D.)
a Greek satirist that spoke scornfully of Christ and Christians, affirming that they were real and historical people, never saying that they were fictional characters.
“The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day — the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account….You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.”
Lucian, The Death of Peregrine. 11-13.

LETTER OF MARA BARSARAPION: (73 A.D.)
Mara Bar-Serapion was a Syrian who lived in the first century A.D. He wrote a letter to his son Serapion that mentions the Jews who killed their King. The letter is now in the possession of the British Museum.
“What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. Or, the people of Samos for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or the Jews by murdering their wise king?…After that their kingdom was abolished. God rightly avenged these men…The wise king…Lived on in the teachings he enacted.”

THALLUS: (52 A.D.)
One of the first secular writers that mentioned Christ. Thallus wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time. Unfortunately, his writings are only found as citations by others. Julius Africanus, a Christian who wrote about AD 221 mentioned Thallus’ account of an eclipse of the sun (Luke 23:44-45).


“On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.”
Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1.


PHLEGON: (1st Century)
A secular historian wrote a history named, “Chronicles.” This original work has been lost, Julius Africanus preserved a small fragment in his writings. Phlegon mentions the eclipse (Matthew 27:45) during the crucifixion of Jesus.
“During the time of Tiberius Caesar an eclipse of the sun occurred during the full moon.”
Africanus, Chronography, 18:1.


SUETONIUS: (69-140 A.D.)
A Roman historian and annalist of the Imperial House under the Emperor Hadrian. He refers to Christ and Christians and the “disturbances” caused by them, namely not worshipping idols and loving all, including their tormentors.
“Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [Christ], he [Claudius] expelled them from the city [Rome].” Acts 18:2, which took place in 49 A.D.
Life of Claudius, 25:4.


In another work Suetonius wrote about the fire which devastated Rome in 64 A.D. under the reign of Nero. Nero blamed the Christians and exacted a heavy punishment upon them, among them covering them with pitch and burning them alive in his gardens.
“Nero inflicted punishment on the Christians, a sect given to a new and mischievous religious belief.”
Lives of the Caesars, 26.2


TOLEDOTH YESHU: (6 Century)
This is a derogatory version of the life of Jesus, growing out of the response of the Jewish community to Christianity. The tradition presented here is most commonly dated to approximately the 6th century CE. The text it self is closer to the 14th century.
Mentions the empty tomb and that the Jewish leaders found it empty. That Jesus was crucified on the eve of the Passover and that He claimed to be God. That Jesus performed sorcery, he healed, and that he taught Rabbis. All of this from a hostile source, with the references above it is a historical fact that Jesus did miracles. His enemies could not refute it, rather they explained it away as sorcery!


CELSUS: (2nd Century)
Criticizes the Gospels, unknowingly reinforces the authors and the content, he alludes to 80 different quotes in the Bible. Admits that the miracles of Jesus were generally believed in the 2nd century.


JULIAN THE APOSTATE: (332-363 A.D.)
Emperor of Rome mentions the Gospels, miracles and other facts about Jesus. Julian had struggled to end the power of Christians in the Roman Empire. Since the day fifty years earlier that Constantine conquered in the sign of the cross, Christian influence had steadily grown. As Julian lay dying from a mortal wound he made the following remark:
“As he bled, the dying emperor groaned, “You have conquered, O Galilean,” referring to Jesus Christ.


CLEMENT OF ROME: (100 A.D.)
Clement affirms the Resurrection, Gospels and that Jesus was sent to earth by God to take away our sins.
“Clement was the fourth bishop of Rome, the first being Peter. Did he know Peter and Paul? It is completely possible that those two Spirit-filled men taught him. Clement even wrote a letter to the Corinthian church that echoed the teachings of the apostles.”


IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH: (50-107 A.D.)
Disciple of the apostles Peter, Paul, and John, who was martyred for his faith in Jesus. He was obviously convinced that Jesus really had lived and that Jesus was all that the apostles has said He was.
“…nearness to the sword is nearness to God; to be among the wild beasts is to be in the arms of God; only let it be in the name of Jesus Christ. I endure all things that I may suffer together with him, since he who became perfect man strengthens me…We have not only to be called Christians, but to be Christians.”
While the emperor Trajan was on a visit to Asia Minor, he arrested Ignatius. When the bishop confessed his faith in Christ, the Emperor sent him in chains to Rome to die. He was hustled to the arena at once and thrown to two fierce lions who immediately devoured him."


..CONT...
 
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I can accept Jesus was real, but I'm not sure why I should accept that Jesus was God just because the Bible says so.
(cont. reply to this quote... 2 other posts also , one showing Catacomb evidence saying, e.g., Jesus rose and was called God by early Christians, before the gospels were completed, only years after His resurrection... also more:

QUADRATUS: (125 A.D.)
Bishop of Athens and a disciple of the apostles. Church historian Eusebius has preserved the only work that we have from Quadratus.
“The deeds of our Savior were always before you, for they were true miracles; those that were healed, those that were raised from the dead, who were seen, not only when healed and when raised, but were always present. They remained living a long time, not only whilst our Lord was on earth, but likewise when he had left the earth. So that some of them have also lived in our times.”
Eusebius, IV, III


EPISTLE OF BARNABAS: (130-38 A.D.)
Mentions the Resurrection, miracles, content of the Gospels and the crucifixion of Jesus.


ARISTIDES: (138-161 A.D.)
Aristides was a second-century Christian believer and philosopher from Athens. This portion of his defense of Christianity was addressed to the Roman Emperor Antonius Pius, who reigned from 138-161 A.D.
“The Son of the most high God, revealed by the Holy Spirit, descended from heaven, born of a Hebrew Virgin. His flesh he received from the Virgin, and he revealed himself in the human nature as the Son of God. In his goodness which brought the glad tidings, he has won the whole world by his life-giving preaching…He selected twelve apostles and taught the whole world by his mediatorial, light-giving truth.
And he was crucified, being pierced with nails by the Jews; and he rose from the dead and ascended to heaven. He sent the apostles into all the world and instructed all by divine miracles full of wisdom. Their preaching bears blossoms and fruits to this day, and calls the whole world to illumination.”
Carey, “Aristides,” 68.


JUSTIN MARTYR: (106-167 A.D.)
Justin Martyr is regarded as one of the greatest early Christian apologists. He was born around 100 A.D and was beheaded for his faith in Jesus in 167 A.D. He mentions as facts many things about Jesus and Christianity, such as: The Magi (wise men who brought gifts from Arabia), King Herod, His crucifixion, His garments parted among the Roman soldiers, the apostles leaving him on the night of his arrest, his fulfilled prophecies, His resurrection and His ascending into heaven among many others. These quotes can be found in his debate with Trypho the Jew.


HEGESIPPUS: (2 Century)
Eusebius draws the conclusion that Hegesippus was a Jew that wrote five books called, “Memoirs.” Only fragments remain of his original work in the writings of Eusebius. They show that Hegesippus traveled extensively trying to determine if the stories of Jesus and the apostles were true. He found that they were accurate, even in the troubled church in Corinth.
“The Corinthian church continued in the true doctrine until Primus became bishop. I mixed with them on my voyage to Rome and spent several days with the Corinthians, during which we were refreshed with the true doctrine. On arrival at Rome I pieced together the succession down to Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus, Anicetus being succeeded by Soter and he by Eleutherus. In every line of bishops and in every city things accord with the preaching of the Law, the Prophets, and the Lord.”
Eusebius, The History of the Church, 9.22.2.


TRAJAN: (53-117 A.D.)
Trajan is a Roman Emperor who wrote a letter [see letter] in response to the Governor of Asia Minor, Pliny the Younger. Pliny needed advice in dealing with “Christians” who renounced their belief in Jesus due to fear of torture and execution.


MACROBIUS: (4th-5th Century)
Pascal (Pensees) mentions a quote of Augustus Caesar as an evidence to the murder of the 7-20 male babies (this is based on the population of Bethlehem in 4-6 B.C., which was 700-1,000 people) by King Herod in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:16).
King Herod heard that a king was to be born and his fear and mental instability caused him to kill these male children under two years of age. King Herod killed his Wife, mother in law, and three sons. This is in character with his life of murder and paranoia. King Herod’s reign was described by his enemies as, “He stole to the throne like a fox, ruled like a tiger, and died like a dog.”
Saturnalia, lib. 2, ch.4.


HADRIAN: (106-167 A.D.)
Justin Martyr quotes this Roman Emperor’s letter to Minucius Fundanus, proconsul of Asia Minor. This letter deals with accusations from pagans against the Christians.
“I have received the letter addressed to me by your predecessor Serenius Granianus, a most illustrious man; and this communication I am unwilling to pass over in silence, lest innocent persons be disturbed, and occasion be given to the informers for practicing villainy. Accordingly, if the inhabitants of your province will so far sustain this petition of theirs as to accuse the Christians in some court of law, I do not prohibit them from doing so.
But I will not suffer them to make use of mere entreaties and outcries. For it is far more just, if any one desires to make an accusation, that you give judgment upon it. If, therefore, any one makes the accusation, and furnishes proof that the said men do anything contrary to the laws, you shall adjudge punishments in proportion to the offences.
And this, by Hercules; you shall give special heed to, that if any man shall, through mere calumny, bring an accusation against any of these persons, you shall award to him more severe punishments in proportion to his wickedness.”
Justin Martyr, The First Apology, Chapters, 68-69.


JUVENAL: (55 AD-127 AD)
Juvenal makes a reference of the tortures of Christians by Nero in Rome.
“But just describe Tigellinus and you will blaze amid those [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]s in which men, with their throats tightly gripped, stand and burn and smoke, and you trace a broad furrow through the middle of the arena.”
Satires, 1, lines 147-157.


SENECA: (3 B.C.-65 A.D.)
Seneca mentions the cruelties that Nero imposes upon Christians.
“The other kind of evil comes, so to speak, in the form of a huge parade. Surrounding it is a retinue of swords and fire and chains and a mob of beasts to be let loose upon the disemboweled entrails of men. Picture to yourself under his head the prison, the cross, the rack, the hook, and the stake which they drive straight through a man until it protrudes from his throat. Think of human limbs torn apart by chariots driven in opposite directions, of the terrible shirt smeared and interwoven with inflammable materials, and of all the other contrivances devised by cruelty, in addition to those which I have mentioned!”
Epistulae Morales, Epistle 14, “On the Reasons for Withdrawing from the World.”


HIEROCLES: (AD 284-305)
A quote by Eusebius preserves some of the text of this lost work of Hierocles, Philalethes or Lover of Truth. In this quote, Hierocles condemns Peter and Paul as sorcerers. Again, their miracles could not be denied, rather they claimed that they used sorcery.
“And this point is also worth noticing, that whereas the tales of Jesus have been vamped up by Peter and Paul and a few others of the kind,–men who were liars and devoid of education and wizards.”
Eusebius, The Treatise of Eusebius, ch. 2.


ANTONIUS PIUS: (86 AD to 161 AD)
A letter from the Roman Emperor Antoninus Pius to the general assembly in Asia Minor. This letter says that the officials in Aisa Minor were getting upset at the Christians in their province, and that no changes are to be made in Antoninus’ method of dealing with them.
“The Emperor Caesar Titus AElius Adrianus Antoninus Augustus Pius, Supreme Pontiff, in the fifteenth year of his tribuneship, Consul for the third time, Father of the fatherland, to the Common Assembly of Asia, greeting: I should have thought that the gods themselves would see to it that such offenders should not escape.
For if they had the power, they themselves would much rather punish those who refuse to worship them; but it is you who bring trouble on these persons, and accuse as the opinion of atheists that which they hold, and lay to their charge certain other things which we are unable to prove.
But it would be advantageous to them that they should be thought to die for that of which they are accused, and they conquer you by being lavish of their lives rather than yield that obedience which you require of them. And regarding the earthquakes which have already happened and are now occurring, it is not seemly that you remind us of them, losing heart whenever they occur, and thus set your conduct in contrast with that of these men; for they have much greater confidence towards God than you yourselves have.
And you, indeed, seem at such times to ignore the gods, and you neglect the temples, and make no recognition of the worship of God. And hence you are jealous of those who do serve Him, and persecute them to the death.
Concerning such persons, some others also of the governors of provinces wrote to my most divine father; to whom he replied that they should not at all disturb such persons, unless they were found to be attempting anything against the Roman government. And to myself many have sent intimations regarding such persons, to whom I also replied in pursuance of my father’s judgment.
But if any one has a matter to bring against any person of this class, merely as such a person, let the accused be acquitted of the charge, even though he should be found to be such an one; but let the accuser he amenable to justice.”
Justin Martyr, The First Apology, ch. 70.

Early Secular Writings Regarding Christ
I haven't seen Jesus though.

I can accept Jesus was real, but I see no reason to believe he was God.

I was once asked if I would accept the evidence put forwards for Christ if instead it was Muslims putting it forward for their beliefs. The answer is that I probably wouldn't. It's likely I'm just biased towards Christianity (though you might not see it in my replies).
I replied to the first and the 2nd above...

If you seen my post before in the society section.. in news and events.. the third doesn't really make sense to me since you accept Jesus was real already. Looking at what they say and Jesus says is like oil and water, they do not mix since one is polar and the other in nonpolar. They do not accept Jesus's, God's, commandments, e.g., John 8:1-11 to not kill or take the lives of others or in regards to the stoning, and they don't care for "the God of David." Jesus is God of Abraham, God of David, God of Moses, God of Jacob, God of Issac. this is clearly a different god they worship... not to mention the anger shown to Christians, literally cursing them on their deathbeds and beheading them along with many others, who they also cite as worshiping Jesus as God. This was the 5th c.

Jesus, who IS God, is "The Truth, the Way, and the Life" ... the light in the darkness for all of humankind, setting a perfect, sinless example to follow. Jesus NEVER harmed or killed ANYONE. Contrast this with the others, for there are none who come even close to this sinless perfection. Truly, He is God shown as a theophany, to guide us.

Do you believe in souls?
Jesus is God showing Himself in the flesh as a perfect, sinless example to follow, but Jesus, who is God, also has a spirit, a soul, who is often called the father, for they are one. As Jesus, who is God, states "I AM the father" and "Before Abraham was, I AM" (as well as His traits). As humans have, there is a body, the flesh, then there is a soul. There is both the flesh and the soul, parts of a whole, one. The same is with God, except He is above all and omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient, all Powerful, the Alpha and the Omega, the creator and redeemer. Jesus IS God.
 
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I don't even know what Christian apologetics is honestly. And I'm not married (?)
He's saying that, in your travels around the forums on CF, you mistook this 'Philosophy' forum for the 'Christian Apologetics' forum, as you made several large posts on the subject of apologetics (very hard-to-read posts, any point you want to make gets lost in the wall of text).

Apologetics is where people defend the faith, constructing arguments that support the beliefs of Christianity, be it the Biblical basis for Trinitarianism or the historicity of Noah's Flood.
 
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pjnlsn

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"Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I AM the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life."
Jesus's, God's words, John 8:12


"Neither can they die anymore: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he called the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

For He is not the God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto Him."
Jesus's, God's words, Luke 20: 36-38


"How think ye? if a man have a hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth He not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?

And if so be that He find it, verily I say unto you, He rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

Even so it is not the will of your Father in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish."
Jesus's, God's words, Matthew 18:12-14

"The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is proclaimed to the poor."
Jesus's, God's words, Matthew 11:5

Isaiah 29:18 In that day the deaf will hear the words of the scroll, and out of gloom and darkness the eyes of the blind will see.

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners,

Isaiah 35:5 Then will the eyes of the blind be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped.

Isaiah 42:7 to open eyes that are blind, to free captives from prison and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.


"Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached."
Jesus's, God's words, repeated in Luke 7:22


"But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind"
Jesus's, God's words, Luke 14:13


Matthew 15:30 Great crowds came to him, bringing the lame, the blind, the crippled, the mute and many others, and laid them at His feet; and He healed them.



The Roman Catacombs, 600 miles in length dating 30 A.D. to 313 A.D. show early Christians believed in the resurrection and Jesus as central, as God...

For instance...

"
The archaeological examination by robotic camera of an intact first century tomb in Jerusalem has revealed a set of limestone Jewish ossuaries or “bone boxes” that are engraved with a rare Greek inscription and a unique iconographic image that the scholars involved identify as distinctly Christian.


The four-line Greek inscription on one ossuary refers to God “raising up” someone and a carved image found on an adjacent ossuary shows what appears to be a large fish with a human stick figure in its mouth, interpreted by the excavation team to be an image evoking the biblical story of Jonah.

Together, the inscription and the Jonah image testify to early Christian faith in resurrection. The tomb record thus predates the writing of the gospels.


IMG_7785-400x.jpg
IMG_7784-400x.jpg


Tabor notes that the epitaph’s complete and final translation is uncertain. The first three lines are clear, but the last line, consisting of three Greek letters, is less sure, yielding several possible translations: “O Divine God, raise up, raise up,” or “The Divine God raises up to the Holy Place,” or “The Divine God raises up from [the dead].

This inscription has something to do with resurrection of the dead, either of the deceased in the ossuary, or perhaps, given the Jonah image nearby, an expression of faith in Jesus’ resurrection,” Tabor said.

The ossuary with the image that Tabor and his team understand to be representing Jonah also has other interesting engravings. These also may be connected to resurrection, Tabor notes. On one side is the tail of a fish disappearing off the edge of the box, as if it is diving into the water. There are small fish images around its border on the front facing, and on the other side is the image of a cross-like gate or entrance—which Tabor interprets as the notion of entering the “bars” of death, which are mentioned in the Jonah story in the Bible.

The findings are detailed in a preliminary scientific report by James D. Tabor, professor and chair of religious studies at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte.

The publication of the academic article is concurrent with the publication of a book by Simon & Schuster entitled The Jesus Discovery: The New Archaeological Find That Reveals the Birth of Christianity. The book is co-authored by Professor James Tabor and filmmaker/professor Simcha Jacobovici. A documentary on the discovery will be aired by the Discovery Channel in spring 2012.

The Jesus Discovery | Latest Research on the Jerusalem Talpiot Tombs
"
Interestingly, it looks like (IMO) an early form of the Chi-Rho perhaps, which is also seen in the catacombs. On the Chi-Rho, there is a "P" representing Jesus and the letters for Alpha and Omega. The cross going through it (had to hidden due to persecution by the Roman Empire) looks remarkably similar to the 2nd image above, but the latter Chi-Rho seems to be more deeply formed and developed. Chi Rho, Chrismon, Monogram of Christ, or Labarum -- Early Christian Symbols of the Ancient Church
Alpha and Omega, of course, is referring to Jesus's, God's words, that He is the "Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end" as seen in Revelation. This is in reference to Jesus as God, shown in the flesh as a theophany.


You haven't seen Him directly as if walking around today as a human, but He, God, did show Himself to all of humankind. As He had showed Himself to Adam and Eve in the Garden, to Jacob when wrestling with Him "face to face" and to Moses when He showed His back, then ultimately in Jesus. His appearances are rare. Jesus was the final, and ultimate theophany. God showing Himself to all of us.

Jesus's words are from God, as He is God, however. His words were witnessed by many and shown in archeological findings, as in the Roman Catacombs, dating 30 A.D. onward.

"However, the similarity with modern concepts of science can be confusing when trying to understand where the hypothesis came from. It is obvious that classical atomists would never have had a solid empirical basis for our modern concepts of atoms and molecules. Bertrand Russell states that they just hit on a lucky hypothesis, only recently confirmed by evidence."
Wiki

"How do people really know that atoms exist even though they can't see them?


No one has ever really seen an atom. Humans like to see something before they believe in it. I am sure there are some people who object to that since there have been claims that electron microscopes have imaged atoms. I believe that illuminating an object with electrons, capturing those electrons and recreating an image is also indirect evidence.

This was probably repeated thousands of times before we also learned to write and share information. Then around 400 BC a greek dude named Democritus came up with the idea that something could be cut into it's smallest piece and it would still be the same object. He was also the first person to write the word atom down. For these reasons Democritus was given credit for the idea and the name. Those ancient Greeks became really good at sitting around thinking, but they weren't all that good at building instruments to prove their thoughts and ideas. It took a few thousand years, until just recently when we got good enough at making machines that we could prove Democritus' atom theory. Can you imagine that? He came up with an idea, but it took 2,400 years before anyone figured out that he was right! "http://education.jlab.org/qa/history_03.html

"That depends on exactly what you mean by "discovered."
had a concept of small particles similar to atoms in the 6th millennium BC, and either Democritus or his mentor Leucippus (or possibly both together) independently came up with the idea (and the word "atomos", which is Greek for "uncuttable") in the 5th century BC. However, these were essentially lucky guesses; there was no real scientific basis behind them, so saying these people "discovered" atoms is a pretty big stretch.
The best candidate is probably John Dalton, who in the early 19th century proposed (based this time on experiments) that substances were composed of atoms, and even assigned relative weight values to several types of atom. "

Atoms still have not been seen, and their existence has been proven by Indirect Evidence.

... Cont..

I think it's *possible* to see atoms with an image of photons (light particles) because most are not quite smaller than the size of a photon, but I'm not sure. If they're close, it would be difficult.

In any case, most atoms can be seen easily with an electron microscope, because the particles which are intercepted (electrons) are obviously much smaller than the average radius of most atoms. If you remember high school science, you'll know that electrons are the particles which along with others make up atoms. In addition, they have some other properties which make imaging easier.

The point being that atoms can be seen, and to compare atomic matter to God in terms of likelihood of existence or the amount known, or whether one is proven is entirely ridiculous, if that's what you meant.

Ultimately, the existence of the atom is proven, and that of a deity is not, not in any sense. Furthermore, one is precisely defined, and an incredible amount more is known about it, while almost nothing is known about the other.

P.S. Also, as a note, while some people like to bring up the Greek concept of 'Atom,' and Democritus as perhaps an example of how empirical evidence is not so important, or something like that, and that maybe their undemonstrated beliefs are true too, what Democritus meant by an atom is not at all what modern science means by an atom, and his ideas are not so hard to think up just by experiencing ordinary life. It's not as though he thought up the idea of small positively charged particles whose state is indeterminate orbiting a core of neutral and negatively charged particles i.e. the modern atom.

The essentials of Democritus concept of Atom could've been thought up by a creative man walking along a beach, who realizes that some of the rocks on the beach will one day be sand i.e. a grain of fine particles. Not the same as the Atom of modern science.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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I think it's *possible* to see atoms with an image of photons (light particles) because most are not quite smaller than the size of a photon, but I'm not sure. If they're close, it would be difficult.
Atoms are about 10[sup]-10[/sup]m in diameter, but photons are point-particles, so the latter are infinitely smaller.

In any case, most atoms can be seen easily with an electron microscope, because the particles which are intercepted (electrons) are obviously much smaller than the average radius of most atoms.
Atoms are imaged with STM and AFM techniques because the electrons can quantum tunnel out of the atom they're bound to, creating a small but measurable current when you place a sensor very close to the atom. The size of this current is proportional to the distance to the atom; the closer you are, the more likely an electron will tunnel into you and thus the higher the overall current you measure. This lets us develop images like this:

temperature_variation_with_the_lt_stm_1_300.jpg


The point being that atoms can be seen, and to compare atomic matter to God in terms of likelihood of existence or the amount known, or whether one is proven is entirely ridiculous, if that's what you meant.

Ultimately, the existence of the atom is proven, and that of a deity is not, not in any sense.
Agreed.
 
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pjnlsn

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Atoms are about 10[sup]-10[/sup]m in diameter, but photons are point-particles, so the latter are infinitely smaller.

Indeed. It's nice to speak with someone who's as or more familiar with the topic :)

So I suppose it would be the comparison between atom diameter and wavelength of the relevant light wave, instead.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Indeed. It's nice to speak with someone who's as or more familiar with the topic :)

So I suppose it would be the comparison between atom diameter and wavelength of the relevant light wave, instead.
Pretty much. Photons of that wavelength are in the x-ray range, but the cross-sectional area of an atom is so small it's difficult to get enough to reflect to form a coherent image, and we need huge quantities of photons to 'see' something. Nevertheless, it's kind of been done (source), but at present atomic photography isn't massively useful.
 
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Elioenai26

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The point being that atoms can be seen,...

Ultimately, the existence of the atom is proven, and that of a deity is not, not in any sense...

Furthermore, one is precisely defined, and an incredible amount more is known about it, while almost nothing is known about the other.


1. If God cannot be seen like atoms can be seen, then God does not exist.
2. God cannot be seen the way atoms can be seen.
3. Therefore, God does not exist.

Is this your argument?

1. If God's existence is not proven the way the existence of an atom is proven, then God does not exist.
2. God's existence is not proven the way the existence of an atom is proven.
3. Therefore God does not exist.

Is this your argument?

1. If God cannot be precicely defined like an atom can, then God does not exist.
2. God cannot be precisely defined the way an atom can.
3. Therefore, God does not exist.

Is this your argument?

1. If an incredible amount is not known about God like the atom, then God does not exist.
2. An incredibke amount is not known about God like the atom.
3. Therefore, God does not exist.

Is this your argument?


If you will notice I asked four separate questions and I expect four separate answers either yes or no to the questions.

Thanks for your time in considering these questions.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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1. If God cannot be seen like atoms can be seen, then God does not exist.
2. God cannot be seen the way atoms can be seen.
3. Therefore, God does not exist.

Is this your argument?

1. If God's existence is not proven the way the existence of an atom is proven, then God does not exist.
2. God's existence is not proven the way the existence of an atom is proven.
3. Therefore God does not exist.

Is this your argument?

1. If God cannot be precicely defined like an atom can, then God does not exist.
2. God cannot be precisely defined the way an atom can.
3. Therefore, God does not exist.

Is this your argument?

1. If an incredible amount is not known about God like the atom, then God does not exist.
2. An incredibke amount is not known about God like the atom.
3. Therefore, God does not exist.

Is this your argument?


If you will notice I asked four separate questions and I expect four separate answers either yes or no to the questions.

Thanks for your time in considering these questions.
It seems pretty clear that he never made any of those arguments, as he never concluded "God does not exist". Without wanting to put words into his mouth, his post was simply a rebuttal to Christian7PraiseJesus' arguments, but was not an argument unto itself.
 
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pjnlsn

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1. If God cannot be seen like atoms can be seen, then God does not exist.
2. God cannot be seen the way atoms can be seen.
3. Therefore, God does not exist.

Is this your argument?

1. If God's existence is not proven the way the existence of an atom is proven, then God does not exist.
2. God's existence is not proven the way the existence of an atom is proven.
3. Therefore God does not exist.

Is this your argument?

1. If God cannot be precicely defined like an atom can, then God does not exist.
2. God cannot be precisely defined the way an atom can.
3. Therefore, God does not exist.

Is this your argument?

1. If an incredible amount is not known about God like the atom, then God does not exist.
2. An incredibke amount is not known about God like the atom.
3. Therefore, God does not exist.

Is this your argument?


If you will notice I asked four separate questions and I expect four separate answers either yes or no to the questions.

Thanks for your time in considering these questions.

There is no proof, or much of a potential, as I've detailed probably about 50 times in the past two months.

I.e. no, to all.
 
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pjnlsn

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It seems pretty clear that he never made any of those arguments, as he never concluded "God does not exist". Without wanting to put words into his mouth, his post was simply a rebuttal to Christian7PraiseJesus' arguments, but was not an argument unto itself.

Elio realllllly wants me to say something false about his religion for once, I expect :)
 
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JGG

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I'll take a shot at this:

1. If God cannot be seen like atoms can be seen, then God does not exist.
2. God cannot be seen the way atoms can be seen.
3. Therefore, God does not exist.

Is this your argument?

No.

1. If God's existence is not proven the way the existence of an atom is proven, then God does not exist.
2. God's existence is not proven the way the existence of an atom is proven.
3. Therefore God does not exist.

Is this your argument?

No.

1. If God cannot be precicely defined like an atom can, then God does not exist.
2. God cannot be precisely defined the way an atom can.
3. Therefore, God does not exist.

Is this your argument?

No.

1. If an incredible amount is not known about God like the atom, then God does not exist.
2. An incredibke amount is not known about God like the atom.
3. Therefore, God does not exist.

Is this your argument?

No.

I'm hungry after all that answerin'. Where's lunch?
 
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pjnlsn

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I'm sorry but I do not think that I quite understand what you're trying to say.

Could you please simplify that for me. You know in layman's terms I mean.

The lack of proof means, at absolute minimum, that one is less likely than the other, not strictly that one must not exist?
 
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