Let's clear up the Eschatology Scripture?

[Straightshot]

My comment


All of the tribulation judgments recorded in Revelation are from the Lord, either directly, or indirectly [Revelation 6:12-17]

The preterist tries to avoid the truth [2 Peter 3]

The literalist seeks discernment and learns to render the prophetic scriptures accordingly

 

[parousia70]

And of course the problem is you ignore important words such as, "something like" and "like", which means the writer is making a description by using a comparison with things/concepts that were known to them of something unrecognizable at the time.

Show me where scripture teaches you this?, Namely that the use of "Like" and "something like" in scripture means the writer is equating known concepts with unknown concepts.

Clearly the Headplate of the Roman Horse I posted was something like a lion, as it was not an actual lion.

And I assume you apply this consistently to passages such as Acts 1:11, where we find the angel telling the disciples that Jesus will come again not exactly as they saw him go, but in some different way (in like manner as) that was unrecognizable to them at that time?

Its not being allegorical, but literal in this case. If you believe they are actually describing Roman legions, there's definitely something wrong with your hermeneutics.

Not at all, I use a hermeneutic that holds audience relevance as paramount to any interpretation.

ALL passages had to have meaning and application to the first receivers, and until we discover what that meaning and application was, we can not accurately determine any meaning or application for us today...

Any interpretation of this passage that removes the original audience to whom the book was specifically addressed and first delivered to from any application (the way you are suggesting) ought be rejected by the honest Bible expositor.

 

[parousia70]

If you believe they are actually describing Roman legions, there's definitely something wrong with your hermeneutics.

I'm interested in your hermeneutical approach to passages such as this.... Here we have David describing the events that took place when He defeated Saul and His armies, an event we all know is past, long since fulfilled:

"Smoke went up out of [God's] nostrils, fire from His mouth devoured; coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down with thick darkness under His feet. And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind. And He made darkness canopies around Him, a mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky. From the brightness before Him coals of fire were kindled. The LORD thundered from heaven, and the Most High uttered His voice. And He sent out arrows, and scattered them, Lightning, and routed them. Then the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were laid bare by the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of His nostrils." (2 Sam 22:8-16)

Which actions of the "actual legions" of David do you contend this passage is describing?

 

[iamlamad]

Facts? This is myopic and interpreting misquoted or wrongly modified Scripture. In the first trumpet, it does not say the angel blowing the trumpet performs the following action of casting hail and fire mingled with blood upon the earth.
In the second trumpet you left out "as it were", which means the unknown
conflagration is being compared to a great burning mountain being thrown into the sea. Mountains are on the earth, not in space flying around as meteors. Given the absence of there being a reference to heaven, I would hardly assume the object has its origins in the heavens as a meteor.
Third trumpet you do the same thing. It says nothing about an angel(i.e. HE, HIM, etc.) coming down and poisoning the waters. It is identified with a proper noun, and in the absence of the aforementioned "he" or "him" it is incorrect to equate it to being an angel.

I could go on and on, but I think I would be wasting my time since you have this idea that God will do it all and does not use mankind's wickedness as instruments of his judgments.

I see your point. Of course these are God's angels loosing this things upon the earth by way of sounding a trumpet. But does this mean that God or angels actually do the damage? As you have shown, no.

You probably know this, but in Chernobyl, Ukraine, They erected a statue of an angel sounding a trumpet! Chernobyl is their translation of "Wormwood" (Rev. 8:11). I think it is very likely that this 3rd trumpet will be something related to atomic bombs.

 

[iamlamad]

My comment


The 200 million are not humans but fallen angels empowered by the devil himself

These will take up no material space, will not need primitive means of transportation, and do not need food or water

Once out of the abyss and released from bondage at the Euphrates River, they will hunt the earth killing billions of humans [2 Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6; Revelation 9; 12:7-9]

Logistics alone would prevent fielding a human army of 200 million in the designated region of the Middle East

Personally I think they come from HEAVEN, not hell. It is God's doing.

 

[Straightshot]

God is the instigator , but uses Satan and his fallen angels in His judgment process

Here is an example [Revelation 17:16-18]

Satan and his fallen ones will come to the earth and will be bared from heaven during the tribulation

And the 200 million will be those who follow the devil [2 Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6; Revelation 12:3-9]

 

[iamlamad]

God is the instigator , but uses Satan and his fallen angels in His judgment process

Here is an example [Revelation 17:16-18]

Satan and his fallen ones will come to the earth and will be bared from heaven during the tribulation

And the 200 million will be those who follow the devil [2 Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6; Revelation 12:3-9]

I think you will find it very difficult to prove by scripture that the 200 million are humans from earth or even demons from hell. It is much more likely, since this is a woe from God, that it will be an angelic army. But then, I cannot prove that from scripture either.

 

[Straightshot]

They are fallen angels under Satan's command .... scripture defines them .... no doubt

And these are coming to the earth for participation in the tribulation period

 

[keras]

I'm interested in your hermeneutical approach to passages such as this.... Here we have David describing the events that took place when He defeated Saul and His armies, an event we all know is past, long since fulfilled:

"Smoke went up out of [God's] nostrils, fire from His mouth devoured; coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down with thick darkness under His feet. And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind. And He made darkness canopies around Him, a mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky. From the brightness before Him coals of fire were kindled. The LORD thundered from heaven, and the Most High uttered His voice. And He sent out arrows, and scattered them, Lightning, and routed them. Then the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were laid bare by the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of His nostrils." (2 Sam 22:8-16)

Which actions of the "actual legions" of David do you contend this passage is describing?

In no way is this event past history. There is no record of any such disaster happening.
What it is describing is a Coronal mass Ejection of unprecedented magnitude. Note that the Lord is not seen when it happens. Many prophesies tell us of a forthcoming worldwide judgement by fire and they will be literally fulfilled by a CME. Isaiah 30:26
Parousia, you continue to post in a arrogant and derogatory manner. Holding preterist beliefs is one thing, promoting that false idea, is another.

 

[iamlamad]

They are fallen angels under Satan's command .... scripture defines them .... no doubt

And these are coming to the earth for participation in the tribulation period

Please show us the scripture that shows you they are fallen angels.

 

[Waterwerx]

Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. (Looks very apparent to me)


A meteor is a huge rock, but it is irrelevant if its a meteor (my opinion) or a mountain tumbling into the Sea. It is per order of God via an Angel. An earth Mountain wouldn't be "burning with fire, a meteor would. Rev. 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; ( Rocks do nut burn easily. A meteor traveling into our atmosphere will however burn like crazy.)


Rev. 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; { Like I stated above, it is irrelevant if its an actual Star or Angel as I believe, it is still a PLAGUE FROM GOD !! In Rev. chapter one the Seven Angels are called seven Stars. In Rev. 9 the Star that comes down with the Key to the bottomless pit is an Angel. Satan was called the Morning Star. Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. (you think a star is using a key here ?)

You can go on and on, but I have proven the Trumpets and Vials are plagues of God.

Nobody is disputing they are plagues from God. The issue at hand is you're denying that God is using mankind's wickedness as His agent for delivering the plagues. What you're insinuating is that mankind isn't responsible for these things occurring and that God Himself just rains down asteroids, angels, blood, hail, etc., upon the earth. This is contrary to what the OT teaches. The seals, trumpets, and vials of Revelation takes everything from both the OT and NT regarding the 70th week and highlights it in chronological order.

 

[iamlamad]

Nobody is disputing they are plagues from God. The issue at hand is you're denying that God is using mankind's wickedness as His agent for delivering the plagues. What you're insinuating is that mankind isn't responsible for these things occurring and that God Himself just rains down asteroids, angels, blood, hail, etc., upon the earth. This is contrary to what the OT teaches. The seals, trumpets, and vials of Revelation takes everything from both the OT and NT regarding the 70th week and highlights it in chronological order.

I agree with the chronological order. But sorry, the seals are not a part of the 70th week. The 70th week or "trib" begins with the 7th seal. John is still in our history when he wrote of the first 5 seals. We are waiting on the 6th which is the start of the Day.

 

[Waterwerx]

I see your point. Of course these are God's angels loosing this things upon the earth by way of sounding a trumpet. But does this mean that God or angels actually do the damage? As you have shown, no.

You probably know this, but in Chernobyl, Ukraine, They erected a statue of an angel sounding a trumpet! Chernobyl is their translation of "Wormwood" (Rev. 8:11). I think it is very likely that this 3rd trumpet will be something related to atomic bombs.

There is the possibility that "Apsinthos" could be a metaphor for Chernobyl, kind of like how Gog & Magog in Revelation is used as a metaphor of the Gog and Magog battle found in Ezekiel 38-39. All we know at this point with 100% certainty is that it is a proper noun, it affects a third of the springs and rivers, and that people will be unaware of the deadly properties of the water. There are numerous toxins that can make water deadly to human contact without changing its taste or how it feels on the skin. The reason I lean towards it being radiological is due to how a lot of our energy is dependent on nuclear power, which are prime targets in a large scale conflict. Nuclear power plants are mostly(if not all) located near large sources of fresh water. When water becomes contaminated with radioactivity, you would never know it unless you had the proper detection equipment, of which very few individuals have on hand.
Some of the most deadly toxins, such as dioxin, are commonly radiomarked with an isotope for easy identification & tracking.

 

[Waterwerx]

I agree with the chronological order. But sorry, the seals are not a part of the 70th week. The 70th week or "trib" begins with the 7th seal. John is still in our history when he wrote of the first 5 seals. We are waiting on the 6th which is the start of the Day.

Why wouldn't they be part of it? The opening of the first seal starts the whole process. All of the signs given by Jesus align perfectly with the seals, followed by great tribulation which starts the 2nd half of the tribulation.

 

[Straightshot]

Learn this truth first

The seals are portents [previews] of the prevalent conditions of the coming judgment still pending ... not the actual events

The events of the tribulation judgments upon the earth begin in chapter 8

Also know that Revelation is given by subject set of which the subjects are repeated giving more details .... so the book is not presented in strict chronological time lapse as the narrative moves forward

For example; the immortals of the Lord's true ecclesia are seen several times in heaven as Revelation progresses .... look for those who dwell in heaven as the tribulation plays out upon the earth

This is prophetic prose used by the prophets .... repeating and adding details to a given theme or subject

 

[LastSeven]

The sounding of the seventh trumpet itself is not the third woe, but it initiates the third woe.

The two witnesses are killed after 1260 days testimony, the same 1260 days that Israel is in the wilderness for believing that the Antichrist is her messiah in 12:6. The two witnesses rise to heaven, There is an earthquake. And the seventh trumpet sounds and there begins the war in heaven (the second heaven) and Satan is cast down for a time, times, half times, the third woe that comes quickly - as soon as the 7th trumpet sounds.

The two witnesses are in heaven... they fulfill this verse 12:11. Verse 10 is what I have been saying to you, the seventh trumpet signals God asserting his rule, to begin the process of bringing the kingdom of God to earth, beginning with the casting down of the accuser.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Two things.

1. The first two woes are trumpets, so why would the third woe not be? You're being inconsistent.
2. The events of Revelation 12 do not come after the events of Revelation 11. These two chapters are out of order.

 

[ac28]

It might be interesting to note that the middle portion (Rev 4:1 - 20:15) of Revelation is made up of 7 alternating occurrences taking place "In Heaven" and "On Earth"

Rev 4, 5. In Heaven. (The Throne, the Book, and the Lamb.)
6:1 to 7:8. On Earth. (The Six Seals and 144,000.)

7:9 - 8:6. In Heaven. (The Great Multitude and the Seventh Seal.)
8:7 - 11:14. On Earth. (The Six Trumpets.)

11:15-19. In Heaven. (The Seventh Trumpet.)
11:19. On Earth. (The Earthquake, etc.)

12:1-12. In Heaven. (Woman, Child and Dragon.)
12:13 - 13:18, On Earth. (The Dragon and Two Beasts.)

14: 1-5. In Heaven. (The Lamb and 144,000.)
14:6-20. On Earth. (The Six Angels.)

15:1-8. In Heaven. (The Seven Vial Angels.)
16:1-18:24. On Earth. (The Seven Vials.)

19:1-16. In Heaven. (The Marriage of the Lamb, etc.)
19:17 - 20 15. On Earth. (The Final Five Judgments.).

 

[iamlamad]

Why wouldn't they be part of it? The opening of the first seal starts the whole process. All of the signs given by Jesus align perfectly with the seals, followed by great tribulation which starts the 2nd half of the tribulation.

Any time we are determined to learn the truth of a scripture, that scripture MUST BE taken in context. Anyone can make the bible say anything by pulling verses out of their context.

What then is the context of the first seal? The entire vision of the throne room in chapters 4 and 5. If we really understand John's message in these chapters, it shows us TIMING. Notice, for example, that in chapter 4, when John first looked into the throne room, Jesus was NOT THERE - although we have over a dozen verses telling us He went to be at the right hand of the Father. Then, in chapter 5, SUDDENLY Jesus appears, as a lamb having been slain.

Notice that in the first search John watched, angels searching for someone worthy to break the seals, this search ended in failure. This is why John was weeping. Yet, if we read ahead we find that Jesus was found worthy. So we must ask, WHY was Jesus not found worthy in the first search? Of course this is related to why He was not in the throne room.

Next we see that the Holy Spirit is there in the throne room, in chapter 4, but then in chapter 5 is send down to earth the very moment that Jesus arrived in the throne room. All this is giving us hints to TIMING. You see, in all of eternity - past to future - there was only about 32 years that Jesus was NOT at the right hand of the Father, because He was on earth. He was not found worthy because He had not yet risen from the dead. He rose from the dead, saw Mary and told her He must ascend, then ascended into the throne room. John got to see the very moment in time He arrived there, and the Holy Spirit was sent down.

Now we have an accurate context for the first seal. The moment Jesus ascended, He went to the Father and got the scroll and began breaking the seals. The first HINT of a waiting time is at the 5th seal: the martyrs of the church age are told they must wait for the time of judgment before they can be judged. So Jesus broke the first 5 seals soon after He arrived in the throne room. Time? Around 32 AD.

 

[iamlamad]

It might be interesting to note that the middle portion (Rev 4:1 - 20:15) of Revelation is made up of 7 alternating occurrences taking place "In Heaven" and "On Earth"

Rev 4, 5. In Heaven. (The Throne, the Book, and the Lamb.)
6:1 to 7:8. On Earth. (The Six Seals and 144,000.)

7:9 - 8:6. In Heaven. (The Great Multitude and the Seventh Seal.)
8:7 - 11:14. On Earth. (The Six Trumpets.)

11:15-19. In Heaven. (The Seventh Trumpet.)
11:19. On Earth. (The Earthquake, etc.)

12:1-12. In Heaven. (Woman, Child and Dragon.)
12:13 - 13:18, On Earth. (The Dragon and Two Beasts.)

14: 1-5. In Heaven. (The Lamb and 144,000.)
14:6-20. On Earth. (The Six Angels.)

15:1-8. In Heaven. (The Seven Vial Angels.)
16:1-18:24. On Earth. (The Seven Vials.)

19:1-16. In Heaven. (The Marriage of the Lamb, etc.)
19:17 - 20 15. On Earth. (The Final Five Judgments.).

Except:
The first 5 seals broken in heaven, yet the first 4 were of things on the earth.
The great multitude was seen in heaven but had just been caught up from earth.
The 7 trumpets were sounded in heaven, but the first six caused events on earth.
Etc.

 

[iamlamad]

Two things.

1. The first two woes are trumpets, so why would the third woe not be? You're being inconsistent.
2. The events of Revelation 12 do not come after the events of Revelation 11. These two chapters are out of order.

You certainly cannot prove they are out of order. And you would be accusing John and the Holy Spirit of mixing them up. Anyway, you are simply WRONG. Jesus told those in Judea to flee when they saw the abomination. You want the fleeing first, and then the abomination?

I agree on your first point.