Let's clear up the Eschatology Scripture?

[iamlamad]

Chronology in scripture:


God had made man and woman in Gen 1:26-27


Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.


27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


God’s creation completed.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

The narrative backs up with more detail, describing how man was made.

Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,


5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.


6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.


7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


8 And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.


9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.


The narrative backs up and describes how woman was made.



Gen 2:21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;



22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.


23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.


The point here is chapter 1 is an overview ,chapter 2 backs up and gives more detail.



The same method was used in Revelation . Chapter 6 is an overview, chapters 7 thru 19 give the details.

You did very well until your last sentence. That sentence is MYTH. Chapter 6 speaks of the seals that were sealing a document. This document (which is where most or Revelation comes from) was sealed with 7 seals and COULD NOT BE OPENED until the 7 seals were opened or broken. Chapter 6 is the breaking open of these seals so the book can be opened and read.

It is therefore NOT an "overview" as the events described do not happen again.

 

[iamlamad]

Not possible - because in Revelation 12 both the presentation order and the timeline order is

1260 days; then the war in heaven; then the time, times, half times.

Doug, you are MISSING it!
Do you imagine that in 12:7 it is now 1260 days after 12:6? Please tell you you don't believe that!

The truth is, the count of 1260 days of fleeing will BEGIN at 12:6. But that fleeing and protection will continue right on to the end of the week, to the 7th vial that ends the week.

The same is true for the time, times and half of time. This count BEGINS at 12:14, and will continue to the end of the week.

The truth is, John mentions the START of each count at the moment it will begin, such as the trampling of the city will begin the day that the "man of sin" enters Jerusalem with his Gentile armies. You do understand, I hope, that to enter the temple in Jerusalem, he must first GET to Jerusalem? The count of 1260 days of testifying will start the same day because the "two witnesses" show up because the "man of sin" showed up. These two counts will begin approximately 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint of the week, the day that the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is God. The 7th trumpet sounds in heaven to mark this time. Then the count of 1260 days of fleeing will begin (12:6) a second or two after those in Judea understand what they just saw - an abomination - and they remember the words of Jesus.

The war in heaven will begin at the same time - or a second or two later - after those who see the abomination begins to flee. They could happen at the same time, but John could not write of two things at the same time. The fleeing and war in heaven are both started because of the abomination and that is at the 7th trumpet.

So the truth is, all 5 of these counts start close to the midpoint and then go to the end of the week, to the 7th vial.

 

[iamlamad]

"The seals are sealing a book to prevent anyone from reading it"


Your joke is upon you son .... I wondered why you have never read the Lord's book of Revelation telling of His coming judgment upon the earth and beyond

Now I know why you do not understand much

Hint: you can read it ... it is right in front of your face

1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

No Joke. Let me show you again: it seems you ignored it the first time:

5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

This is not a difficult concept. The book or scroll cannot be opened and read (or anything inside come to pass) UNTIL the seals are broken." Any other theory is MYTH.

Now read closely:
8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Do you see it? NO TRUMPET can be sounded unless SOMEONE was found worthy to break the seals. The rest of the book of Revelation and everything written there would depend on someone being found worthy to break the seals so the book could be opened and read.

OF COURSE God, knowing everything could write in the first page that this book would be a revealing.

 

[Straightshot]

Again .... the seals serve two purposes:revealed portents [previews] of the coming tribulation events which begin in chapter 8 and to hold back the actual events contained in the scroll until all of the seals are removed

This removal is still pending as we speak and the Lord will do this just after He calls for His true ecclesia and just before the tribulation events begin

 

[iamlamad]

Again .... the seals serve two purposes:revealed portents [previews] of the coming tribulation events which begin in chapter 8 and to hold back the actual events contained in the scroll until all of the seals are removed

This removal is still pending as we speak and the Lord will do this just after He calls for His true ecclesia and just before the tribulation events begin

OK, prove what you say with scripture: show us anywhere following the first seal where this seal is portending or previewing anything.
Do the same with the other horsemen. Show is where the martyrs at the 5th seal are mentioned again. If what you say is truth, this should be easy.

Again I will remind that that every verse in the bible has a CONTEXT. the first key to good bible exegesis is to leave a verse in its context. The context of the first seal is Jesus ascension back into heaven after rising from the dead. It seems you wish to ignore this.

Revelation is a story that begins right while John was living, then takes us through the church age briefly, and they concentrates on the 70th week of Daniel. It is a narration that followed strict chronological order. Any theory that denies this will be proven wrong.

I can agree - but only in part: we are waiting on the 6th seal to be broken and the events of that seal to take place. However, those who are IN Christ will miss the great earthquake, because we will be caught up.

 

[Postvieww]

No Joke. Let me show you again: it seems you ignored it the first time:

5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

This is not a difficult concept. The book or scroll cannot be opened and read (or anything inside come to pass) UNTIL the seals are broken." Any other theory is MYTH.

Now read closely:
8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Do you see it? NO TRUMPET can be sounded unless SOMEONE was found worthy to break the seals. The rest of the book of Revelation and everything written there would depend on someone being found worthy to break the seals so the book could be opened and read.

OF COURSE God, knowing everything could write in the first page that this book would be a revealing.

Lamad said:

Now read closely:

8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Do you see it? NO TRUMPET can be sounded unless SOMEONE was found worthy to break the seals. The rest of the book of Revelation and everything written there would depend on someone being found worthy to break the seals so the book could be opened and read.

Your statement “NO TRUMPET can be sounded unless SOMEONE was found worthy to break the seals” is supported only by your interpretation of the chronology of Revelation.

If one looks at verse 2 as a new thought or new and separate part of the vision your statement above falls in the dust. “And I saw” is not the equivalent of “after the 7th seal was opened the first trumpet sounded”. “And I saw” simply means next in the vision John saw 7 angels. Everything he saw was not always in chronological order.

If I saw on tv an earthquake that was happening in Japan and the story switched to a volcano erupting at exactly the same moment on the White House lawn , I could tell someone the story of the earthquake and then I could say “and I saw” the volcano erupt, that does not mean the volcano had to follow the earthquake. It simply means “and I saw” it also.

If verse 1 told us the 7th seal had to be opened before verse 2 could take place we would not be having this discussion and you could absolutely claim you are correct, but that is not the case here.

 

[Douggg]

Doug, you are MISSING it!
Do you imagine that in 12:7 it is now 1260 days after 12:6? Please tell you you don't believe that!

The truth is, the count of 1260 days of fleeing will BEGIN at 12:6. But that fleeing and protection will continue right on to the end of the week, to the 7th vial that ends the week.

The fleeing in 12:6 is at the very end of the 1260 days, day 1185 to be exact.

From Daniel 12:11-12, blessed are those who remain (faithful) to the 1335th day after the abomination of desolation is setup. The 7 years is 2520 days long. The last day Jesus returns. So 2520-1335 days is day 1185 tbat the AOD is setup and the fleeing begins.

The two witnesses will battle with the beast from day 1185 to day 1260 as the Jews are fleeing. Then at the end of the 1260 days, the beast kills them. And the window for fleeing, cover provided by the two witnesses waring against the beast, is closed. Those left in Jerusalem will be there until Jesus returns basically as hostages.

 

[Douggg]

You do understand, I hope, that to enter the temple in Jerusalem, he must first GET to Jerusalem? The count of 1260 days of testifying will start the same day because the "two witnesses" show up because the "man of sin" showed up.

The person doesn't have to get to Jerusalem at all.... he will already be there - as the King of Israel, the Antichrist. He will be residing in Jerusalem as the King of Israel for around 3 years 3 months, before he gets it in his head that he has achieved God-hood and commits the act of going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God - the transgression of desolation.

The person starts as the little horn, leader of Europe.

Following Gog/Magog, he arrives in the middle east with his army, the prince who shall come.

The Jews will think he is their messiah. He is anointed king of Israel, making him the Antichrist - king of Israel instead of Jesus the rightful king.

And he resides in Jerusalem for 3 years 3 months (thereabouts), most of the first half of the seven years, before going into the temple claiming to be God, revealing himself as the man of sin. The Jews reject him as continuing as their King, ending his time as the Antichrist.

He is killed, brought back to life as the beast. The image is made of him and setup on day 1185. The two witnesses battle against him, as the Jews flee, until day 1260 when he kills the two witnesses.

They ascend to heaven 3 1/2 days later. The war in heaven takes place and Satan cast down for the second half, the time, times, and half times.

 

[Straightshot]

"OK, prove what you say with scripture"

You prove what you say .... none of your offered historical events fit the seals or any judgments of the tribulation, not one .... there is no valid comparison with the events of the coming tribulation

And the first depicts the spreading of the gospel during the tribulation period of the Lord's coming millennial kingdom after the same

You are trying to insert the the first 5 portents into the past as actual events that have already transpired

The Lord's unprecedented wrath of the tribulation has never come .... yet

These portents are all about the impending tribulation: intense satanic and human warfare, worldwide economic collapse and famine, massive human death, martyrdom of those who will become believers during the tribulation, upheaval in nature on an unprecedented scale during the tribulation and the human response to the Lord's judgments

The seals are still holding the scroll closed as we speak .... and none have been removed yet ... the Lord will come to remove them just after the last of His true ecclesia are added and made immortal [Romans 11:25-36]

Then He will begin the 70th week specifically decreed for Israel of 2520 days .... He will first remove all of the seals, and begin the events of His unprecedented unrelenting judgment upon an unbelieving world that has refused to believe the truth about Him

 

[keras]

You prove what you say .... none of your offered historical events fit the seals or any judgments of the tribulation, not one .... there is no valid comparison with the events of the coming tribulation
And the first depicts the spreading of the gospel during the tribulation period of the Lord's coming millennial kingdom after the same

You are trying to insert the the first 5 portents into the past as actual events that have already transpired

The actual events described in the first five Seals HAVE transpired. As you say: those worldwide problems don't compare with what will happen during the GT. You contradict yourself!
History proves it, since the first century, we have had almost continuous wars, constant famines somewhere in the world, plagues of every kind right up to the Zika virus, and millions of the martyrs have been killed for their faith from Stephen, the girl at Columbine who refused to renounce Jesus and the many Christians in Africa, etc, killed now.

I agree with Lamad, the Sixth Seal is not opened as yet, when it is the world will be a different place. And provided you survive that terrible Day, you will still be here, on earth; where every human belongs.
The Seventh Seal is just a time gap, the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls of the GT do not happen until the last 3.5 years.

 

[Straightshot]

"The actual events described in the first five Seals HAVE transpired"


The prophetic scriptures are very specific and detailed with the related events recorded, not generalizations that can be made to mean most anything

There are no specific events contained within the scope of the visions of any prophet over the last 2000 years and you cannot match any with the same

For example, the crusades, the inquisitions, the French revolution, world war I, world war II, the Jewish holocaust, the Persian gulf wars .... even the the wars between Israel and the Muslims

None of these appear in the visions of the prophets .... and there is a reason

The scope of the visions does not include the breach of silence between the end of the 69th week decreed for Israel ...... and the beginning of the 70th which is still pending .... the same beginning of the coming tribultion

If you do not understand this decree you will never render the prophetic scriptures with accuracy

The Lord has set His nation of Israel apart from the nations of the Gentiles as an ensign giving His schedule for the 70 weeks of years [Isaiah 11; Daniel 9:24-27]

His dispensation of grace of 2000 years still ongoing stands between the 69th and 70th weeks during which there are no events upon the earth seen in any prophetic vision

The ending date of this interposing time lapse is not revealed in scripture and this is why no one can predict the beginning of the 70th week

Many have attempted to do this .... and many have failed

And any who do today will fail the same

His dispensation of grace could have lasted 2 weeks or 2000 years, and He simply has revealed no way for anyone to measure the length by any specific prophetical events ... not even 1948 for Israel is in the scope of the visions

Here's what He told the apostles of Israel [Acts 1:6-8] .... the kingdom will not be restored to a believing remnant of Israel until the 70th week decreed [Jeremiah 30; Ezekiel 20:34-44; 36; Daniel 9:24-27; Micah 5]

Neither has He told any one .... the time is still pending

 

[keras]

Quote Keras: The actual events described in the first five Seals HAVE transpired"
Quote Straightshot: The prophetic scriptures are very specific and detailed with the related events recorded,[/QUOTE]
The first four Seals; the four horsemen of the apocalypse, were sent out to range over all the earth in the 1st century. We know this because of their effects. They have killed a quarter of the earths people by war, famine, pestilence and wild beasts. Revelation 6:8 Statistics prove it; all thru history, chances are only 75% that you would die in bed of old age.
The detailed prophesies from the Sixth Seal onward have yet to be fulfilled. Many more deaths will ensue.

If you do not understand this decree you will never render the prophetic scriptures with accuracy

Just where, exactly is this decree that says there is nothing in the Bible about what will happen during the 2000 year gap?

The Lord has set His nation of Israel apart from the nations of the Gentiles as an ensign giving His schedule for the 70 weeks of years

You still fail to see or understand the real message of the New Testament. Here it is for you: Jesus came to extend salvation to all who would accept it. Most of the Jews rejected it, so Jesus told them the Kingdom was to be taken from them and given to a people, every true Christian that bears the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43
That is; all Christians who lead a righteous and holy life. A small minority will be Messianic Jews. The rest of the apostate, atheistic and false religion Jews and people of the world will be judged and punished.
All that will happen to the State of Israel now, is their Judgement, Isaiah 6:11-13, Zechariah 13:8-9, Isaiah 22:14

 

[Riberra]

"The actual events described in the first five Seals HAVE transpired"


The prophetic scriptures are very specific and detailed with the related events recorded, not generalizations that can be made to mean most anything

There are no specific events contained within the scope of the visions of any prophet over the last 2000 years and you cannot match any with the same

For example, the crusades, the inquisitions, the French revolution, world war I, world war II, the Jewish holocaust, the Persian gulf wars .... even the the wars between Israel and the Muslims

Jesus have taken the rely to explain in details in Matthew 24 and in the Book of Revelation the things who will happen on the Earth before His Second Coming.
Matthew 24
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world ?

Seal 1 is The gospel of Jesus being preached and spiritually conquering the world since Jesus' ministry and the apostles .
-------------------
SEALS 2 to 4 =
Matthew 24:6-8
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
------------------
Seal 5 /are the early Christians martyrs and all the millions of others that will follow-- until the Coming of Jesus in Glory./We are lucky to have escaped that until now. That is another story for the Christians living in Muslim countries.
Matthew 24:9
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

As Keras and Lamad have pointed out, it is easy to see based on recorded history and actual events that Seal 1 to 5 have been opened and still in action today...and they fit with what Jesus tell us in Matthew 24:1-14.


The 6th seal have obviously not being opened yet...following by the 7th seal ..the trumpets...

The 3 1/2 years of the great tribulation who will precede the Coming of Jesus will not begin until Revelation 12:6-14 = Matthew 24:15-31

 

[Postvieww]

OK, prove what you say with scripture: show us anywhere following the first seal where this seal is portending or previewing anything.
Do the same with the other horsemen. Show is where the martyrs at the 5th seal are mentioned again. If what you say is truth, this should be easy.

Again I will remind that that every verse in the bible has a CONTEXT. the first key to good bible exegesis is to leave a verse in its context. The context of the first seal is Jesus ascension back into heaven after rising from the dead. It seems you wish to ignore this.

Revelation is a story that begins right while John was living, then takes us through the church age briefly, and they concentrates on the 70th week of Daniel. It is a narration that followed strict chronological order. Any theory that denies this will be proven wrong.

I can agree - but only in part: we are waiting on the 6th seal to be broken and the events of that seal to take place. However, those who are IN Christ will miss the great earthquake, because we will be caught up.

Lamad said:

"It is a narration that followed strict chronological order. Any theory that denies this will be proven wrong."


Here is your chance prove this wrong with reasoned from scripture arguments point by point.


Sequence of Revelation

I totally believe in what you refer to as “John’s God given order” I just disagree with what you claim that order is and the alleged proofs you offer.

Chapter 4:1 “After this I looked, and behold a door was opened in heaven”

John had just been shown the 7 churches of his day the scene in heaven he was shown in chapter 4 was in John’s real time past, which actually happened before the day of the 7 churches. This is the first proof that the introductions to the chapters in revelation do not always designate chronological order.

Chapter 5:1 “And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne”

Chapter 6:1 “And I saw when the Lamb had opened one of the seals”

Chapter 7:1 “After these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth”

Chapter 8:1 “And when he had opened the seventh seal”

This is true sequence; the silence in heaven absolutely follows the opening of the 7th seal. That is what the text clearly says in this case.

Chapter 9:1 “ And the fifth angel sounded”

Chapter 10:1 “And I saw another mighty angels come down from heaven”

Chapter 11:1 “And there was given me a reed like a rod”

Chapter 12:1 “And there appeared a great wonder in heaven”

John was shown an overview here of the birth of Christ, a second proof the introductions do not always designate chronological order. The same type of language is used here as many of the other chapters. "And there appeared" simply means John was shown this part of the vision next.

Chapter 12:6 “And the woman fled into the wilderness”

This wording does not show that this event happened immediately after Christ was caught up to God and his throne. It simply shows it was next in the overview John was shown in this sequence.

Chapter 12:7 “And there was a war in heaven”

This does not tell us there was a war in heaven immediately after the woman fled into the wilderness in fact that is not the case because verse 13 &14 tells us the dragon persecuted the woman “When” he saw he was cast down. So much for chronological order.

Chapter 13:1 “And I stood upon the sand of the sea”

Chapter14:1 “ And I looked , and lo, a Lamb stood on mount Zion”

Chapter15:1 “And I saw another sign in heaven”

Chapter 16:1 “And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels”

Chapter 17:1 “And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials”

Chapter 18:1 “And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven”

All this tells us for sure is, after John was shown the things of chapter 17 he saw the things of chapter 18.

Chapter 19:1 “And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven”

All John says here is after seeing the events of chapters 17 & 18 “he heard”.

Chapter 20:1 “And I saw an angel come down from heaven”

Chapter 21:1 “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth”

Chapter 22::1 “And he shewed me a pure river of water of life”

John was shown a lot of information much of it, clearly overlapping events. There is much more evidence in the text, Revelation is not laid out in chronological order. All I have dealt with in this post is the introductions to the chapters.

I believe there are clearly parenthetical insertions, even within chapters, but that fact does not automatically mean everything else is in strict chronological order.

 

[iamlamad]

"The actual events described in the first five Seals HAVE transpired"

The prophetic scriptures are very specific and detailed with the related events recorded, not generalizations that can be made to mean most anything

There are no specific events contained within the scope of the visions of any prophet over the last 2000 years and you cannot match any with the same

For example, the crusades, the inquisitions, the French revolution, world war I, world war II, the Jewish holocaust, the Persian gulf wars .... even the the wars between Israel and the Muslims

None of these appear in the visions of the prophets .... and there is a reason

The scope of the visions does not include the breach of silence between the end of the 69th week decreed for Israel ...... and the beginning of the 70th which is still pending .... the same beginning of the coming tribultion

If you do not understand this decree you will never render the prophetic scriptures with accuracy

The Lord has set His nation of Israel apart from the nations of the Gentiles as an ensign giving His schedule for the 70 weeks of years [Isaiah 11; Daniel 9:24-27]

His dispensation of grace of 2000 years still ongoing stands between the 69th and 70th weeks during which there are no events upon the earth seen in any prophetic vision

The ending date of this interposing time lapse is not revealed in scripture and this is why no one can predict the beginning of the 70th week

Many have attempted to do this .... and many have failed

And any who do today will fail the same

His dispensation of grace could have lasted 2 weeks or 2000 years, and He simply has revealed no way for anyone to measure the length by any specific prophetical events ... not even 1948 for Israel is in the scope of the visions

Here's what He told the apostles of Israel [Acts 1:6-8] .... the kingdom will not be restored to a believing remnant of Israel until the 70th week decreed [Jeremiah 30; Ezekiel 20:34-44; 36; Daniel 9:24-27; Micah 5]

Neither has He told any one .... the time is still pending

The prophetic scriptures are very specific and detailed with the related events recorded, not generalizations that can be made to mean most anything

There are no specific events contained within the scope of the visions of any prophet over the last 2000 years and you cannot match any with the same

This is simply not true. We can be quite sure that the first seal is to represent the Church taking the gospel to the nations. It fits.

Do do the descriptions of the Red, the Black and the Pale horses fit the history of the church.

Jesus EXPECTED the Pharisees to know the season He would come. They did not. Yet if they studied Daniel they would have known to the very day. They missed it, and did not even include Daniel as prophecy. I think God expects us to know the season too. Not the day, and not the hour, but the season........I am convinced the season is upon us. I will be SHOCKED if the rapture does not take place within a year or two.

 

[iamlamad]

Quote Keras: The actual events described in the first five Seals HAVE transpired"

: The prophetic scriptures are very specific and detailed with the related events recorded,

The first four Seals; the four horsemen of the apocalypse, were sent out to range over all the earth in the 1st century. We know this because of their effects. They have killed a quarter of the earths people by war, famine, pestilence and wild beasts. Revelation 6:8 Statistics prove it; all thru history, chances are only 75% that you would die in bed of old age.

You are MISSING the intent of the Author! There were NOT sent out over all the earth. Read it again! they were LIMITED to 1/4 of the earth. You are imagining it says they will kill 1/4. That is error. That is myth. And if you study closely, you will find ONLY seals 2,3 and 4, the Red horse, the Black horse and the Pale horse are limited to 1/4 of the earth. NOT the white horse! The white horse represents the CHURCH sent out to make disciples of the whole word.

The detailed prophesies from the Sixth Seal onward have yet to be fulfilled. Many more deaths will ensue.

Just where, exactly is this decree that says there is nothing in the Bible about what will happen during the 2000 year gap?

You still fail to see or understand the real message of the New Testament. Here it is for you: Jesus came to extend salvation to all who would accept it. Most of the Jews rejected it, so Jesus told them the Kingdom was to be taken from them and given to a people, every true Christian that bears the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43
That is; all Christians who lead a righteous and holy life. A small minority will be Messianic Jews. The rest of the apostate, atheistic and false religion Jews and people of the world will be judged and punished.
All that will happen to the State of Israel now, is their Judgement, Isaiah 6:11-13, Zechariah 13:8-9, Isaiah 22:14

I certainly agree with this portion of your post.

 

[iamlamad]

"OK, prove what you say with scripture"

You prove what you say .... none of your offered historical events fit the seals or any judgments of the tribulation, not one .... there is no valid comparison with the events of the coming tribulation

And the first depicts the spreading of the gospel during the tribulation period of the Lord's coming millennial kingdom after the same

You are trying to insert the the first 5 portents into the past as actual events that have already transpired

The Lord's unprecedented wrath of the tribulation has never come .... yet

These portents are all about the impending tribulation: intense satanic and human warfare, worldwide economic collapse and famine, massive human death, martyrdom of those who will become believers during the tribulation, upheaval in nature on an unprecedented scale during the tribulation and the human response to the Lord's judgments

The seals are still holding the scroll closed as we speak .... and none have been removed yet ... the Lord will come to remove them just after the last of His true ecclesia are added and made immortal [Romans 11:25-36]

Then He will begin the 70th week specifically decreed for Israel of 2520 days .... He will first remove all of the seals, and begin the events of His unprecedented unrelenting judgment upon an unbelieving world that has refused to believe the truth about Him

And the first depicts the spreading of the gospel during the tribulation period of the Lord's coming millennial kingdom after the same
CONTEXT! Your theories fail because you pull things out of context. The first seal was broken as soon as Jesus ascended into heaven and sent the Holy Spirit down: around 32 AD. How then can you insist that John and the Holy Spirit are speaking of end times and tribulation period? Always remember, anyone can make the bible say anything if they pull verses out of context. Please don't do this any more.

The seals are still holding the scroll closed as we speak .... and none have been removed yet ..
No matter now many times you write this, it will still be wrong. It is not what the scriptures tell us. Again CONTEXT is key. John is very clear that Jesus began breaking seals as soon as He ascended. I know you don't believe this, but it is truth anyway. We are waiting on the 6th seal to be broken.

when a seal is broken, and event happens - THEN - not 2000 years later. When Jesus broke the first seal, around 32 AD, the church was sent out. And as soon as the church was sent out, the devil began trying to STOP the advance of the gospel: seals 2-4.

Stephen was martyred. Jesus broke the 5th seal to represent the martyrs of the CHURCH AGE.

Why do you insist these events are future? They are HISTORY.

 

[iamlamad]

The person doesn't have to get to Jerusalem at all.... he will already be there - as the King of Israel, the Antichrist. He will be residing in Jerusalem as the King of Israel for around 3 years 3 months, before he gets it in his head that he has achieved God-hood and commits the act of going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God - the transgression of desolation.

The person starts as the little horn, leader of Europe.

Following Gog/Magog, he arrives in the middle east with his army, the prince who shall come.

The Jews will think he is their messiah. He is anointed king of Israel, making him the Antichrist - king of Israel instead of Jesus the rightful king.

And he resides in Jerusalem for 3 years 3 months (thereabouts), most of the first half of the seven years, before going into the temple claiming to be God, revealing himself as the man of sin. The Jews reject him as continuing as their King, ending his time as the Antichrist.

He is killed, brought back to life as the beast. The image is made of him and setup on day 1185. The two witnesses battle against him, as the Jews flee, until day 1260 when he kills the two witnesses.

They ascend to heaven 3 1/2 days later. The war in heaven takes place and Satan cast down for the second half, the time, times, and half times.

This sounds good in theory; it just does not fit scripture. During the first half of the week, he will be taking down 3 of ten nations. He will be very busy elsewhere. Rev. 11:1-2 shows us when he arrives in Jerusalem. It will be from that point that his Gentile armies will trample the city.

 

[iamlamad]

The fleeing in 12:6 is at the very end of the 1260 days, day 1185 to be exact.

From Daniel 12:11-12, blessed are those who remain (faithful) to the 1335th day after the abomination of desolation is setup. The 7 years is 2520 days long. The last day Jesus returns. So 2520-1335 days is day 1185 tbat the AOD is setup and the fleeing begins.

The two witnesses will battle with the beast from day 1185 to day 1260 as the Jews are fleeing. Then at the end of the 1260 days, the beast kills them. And the window for fleeing, cover provided by the two witnesses waring against the beast, is closed. Those left in Jerusalem will be there until Jesus returns basically as hostages.

It is useless to answer, but I will try. Yes, the fleeing WILL BE at the end of the first 1260 days, but at the beginning of THEIR 1260 days of fleeing. Your 1185 is myth. The abomination will divide the week into two EQUAL parts of 1260 days each. God knows how to divide.

The last day Jesus returns. He does NOT return on the last day! Do you read before you write? The last day of the 70th week will be the 7th vial. Jesus does not return then. The events of chapters 17 and 18 take place....perhaps a month. Your arithmatic is useless, based on false theories. The first half will be 1260 days exactly like the last half.

The two witnesses will show up just 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint. No math or arithmetic needed. John tells us this, by showing us they are dead for 3 1/2 days.

Forget your 1185. It is not truth. The 1335 days is speaking of one certain day, 75 days after the 7th vial ends the week. It is not the intent of the Author to do any subtractions.

 

[iamlamad]

Lamad said:

Now read closely:

8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Do you see it? NO TRUMPET can be sounded unless SOMEONE was found worthy to break the seals. The rest of the book of Revelation and everything written there would depend on someone being found worthy to break the seals so the book could be opened and read.

Your statement “NO TRUMPET can be sounded unless SOMEONE was found worthy to break the seals” is supported only by your interpretation of the chronology of Revelation.

If one looks at verse 2 as a new thought or new and separate part of the vision your statement above falls in the dust. “And I saw” is not the equivalent of “after the 7th seal was opened the first trumpet sounded”. “And I saw” simply means next in the vision John saw 7 angels. Everything he saw was not always in chronological order.

If I saw on tv an earthquake that was happening in Japan and the story switched to a volcano erupting at exactly the same moment on the White House lawn , I could tell someone the story of the earthquake and then I could say “and I saw” the volcano erupt, that does not mean the volcano had to follow the earthquake. It simply means “and I saw” it also.

If verse 1 told us the 7th seal had to be opened before verse 2 could take place we would not be having this discussion and you could absolutely claim you are correct, but that is not the case here.

If you think John and the Holy Spirit were that mixed up, it is no wonder we don't agree on much. What do you think follows the 30 minutes of silence? Do you struggle with history books in this manner?