Let us see how "open minded" you are where doctrine is concerned!!!!

[WileyCoyote]

I was listening to a sermon online by an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist preacher and something he said made me raise an eyebrow. He was preaching on Eternal Security. For anyone here who has had discussions with me in the past, you will know that I absolutely abhor this particular doctrine. But I figured "Hey, I'll listen to what he has to say." After all, I feel I can learn from anyone and maybe he would have someting intelligent to say.

A few minutes into his sermon, he made a statement that made me stop listening. He said something to the effect of this:

"If you don't believe in Eternal Security, you don't get to go to heaven."

He believes that the doctrine of Eternal Security is one of the key doctrines in Christianity, which would understandably lead to him making a statement like that. But the statement still sickened me. As much as I disagree with the doctrine of ES, I would NEVER make the doctrine a salvation issue. If you believe in it, I'm not going to tell you you're going to hell for it. I may argue with you, but after we exchange blows and lick our wounds, I'm still going to call you my brother/sister in Christ. And then it hit me. Some people are not willing to budge on certain doctrines they believe in so strongly. They will even go so far as to condemn you to hell if you disagree with their pet doctrine. Another Eternal Security proponent told me that this doctrine IS the gospel of Jesus Christ. So since I don't believe it, I don't believe the gospel. What lunacy.

Now I also believe things that others would consider to be wrong as well. I believe in divine healing and that healing is in the atonement. I believe in free will and my beliefs lean more towards Arminianism than Calvinism. I lean towards theosis where the nature of man is concerned. I believe that God wants people (especially Christians) to prosper and be successful. I'm a 6000 year old earth Creationist nut. I reject evolution and the teachings of Charles Darwin.

All of these things I feel very strongly about. However, despite my strong belief in these things, I admit the possiblility that I might be wrong about them. With sufficient evidence being shown to me in an attitude of love, I can change my mind about any of those beliefs (even evolution). I'm not commited to my theology or anyone else's. I'm commited to truth. I don't want to be so closed minded that I reject something I should be embracing. And I don't want to hold on to beliefs that are wrong either.

So, what about you? Are you willing to compromise where some of your doctrines are concerned? Or do you believe in them so strongly that you will go to the grave believing in them and even condemn others to hell for not believing your doctrine? Now I'm not talking about the fundamentals (resurrection, Trinity, virgin birth, etc etc), I'm talking about those doctrines that are not part of the fundamentals but you believe in strongly. I know that nobody likes to admit when they are wrong (pride, that little devil ) but if we are to grow in Christ, part of that growth process will have to consist of admitting our doctrinal mistakes and adjusting our theology where it needs adjusting. I'm continually adjusting my theology. I don't know everything and admit that I'm capable of making mistakes. So, let's see how "open minded" you really are. Are you willing to admit where you're wrong and adjust your theology? Or are your beliefs set in stone and nobody will be able to change your mind?

 

[radhead]

I believe in eternal security, however I don't agree with the statement that preacher made.

I'm not going to condemn anyone, though. Only God can do that. For example, I've heard some Christians say that such and such a person is going to Hell because of what they believe. In reality, you don't know if a person is going to be saved or not. Their beliefs could always change later on. You *can* say that a person has a false belief (goes against core Christian beliefs) but that's all you can say. You can't say that someone is going to Hell.

 

[Allen1901]

I think You have to be tolerant of other beliefs for the purpose of fellowship, but it's OK to hold strong personal views.

God Bless!

 

[Mikeb85]

So, what about you? Are you willing to compromise where some of your doctrines are concerned? Or do you believe in them so strongly that you will go to the grave believing in them and even condemn others to hell for not believing your doctrine? Now I'm not talking about the fundamentals (resurrection, Trinity, virgin birth, etc etc), I'm talking about those doctrines that are not part of the fundamentals but you believe in strongly. I know that nobody likes to admit when they are wrong (pride, that little devil ) but if we are to grow in Christ, part of that growth process will have to consist of admitting our doctrinal mistakes and adjusting our theology where it needs adjusting. I'm continually adjusting my theology. I don't know everything and admit that I'm capable of making mistakes. So, let's see how "open minded" you really are. Are you willing to admit where you're wrong and adjust your theology? Or are your beliefs set in stone and nobody will be able to change your mind?

In the case of the Orthodox Church, our beliefs have been the same for 2000 years. Certain doctrines that are considered essential to the faith that were challenged by heresies were defined by ecumenical councils in the first thousand or so years of Christianity.

I don't hold my beliefs because of personal interpretation, but because of the witness of the Church over the last 2000 years, so I can't compromise on certain things. Nor is there any reason to compromise the truth...

That being said, the Orthodox Church also hasn't defined many of the beliefs that many Protestants and Catholics have, our theology is alot more organic and less rigid/legalistic...

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

I think people assert a lot of things to make up for the fact they don't know God, they don't who they are, and they don't really know what they are teaching.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

So, what about you? Are you willing to compromise where some of your doctrines are concerned? Or do you believe in them so strongly that you will go to the grave believing in them and even condemn others to hell for not believing your doctrine? Now I'm not talking about the fundamentals (resurrection, Trinity, virgin birth, etc etc), I'm talking about those doctrines that are not part of the fundamentals but you believe in strongly. I know that nobody likes to admit when they are wrong (pride, that little devil ) but if we are to grow in Christ, part of that growth process will have to consist of admitting our doctrinal mistakes and adjusting our theology where it needs adjusting. I'm continually adjusting my theology. I don't know everything and admit that I'm capable of making mistakes. So, let's see how "open minded" you really are. Are you willing to admit where you're wrong and adjust your theology? Or are your beliefs set in stone and nobody will be able to change your mind?

Doctrine really isn't what the faith is about. It's a springboard, a launching point to Christ.

 

[WileyCoyote]

I believe in eternal security, however I don't agree with the statement that preacher made.

I'm not going to condemn anyone, though. Only God can do that. For example, I've heard some Christians say that such and such a person is going to Hell because of what they believe. In reality, you don't know if a person is going to be saved or not. Their beliefs could always change later on. You *can* say that a person has a false belief (goes against core Christian beliefs) but that's all you can say. You can't say that someone is going to Hell.

Hello, Rad.

Do you have doctrines you believe in strongly (minus the fundamentals) that you are willing to change your mind about if they are wrong?

I think You have to be tolerant of other beliefs for the purpose of fellowship, but it's OK to hold strong personal views.

God Bless!

Nothing wrong with holding strong, personal views. But the problem comes into play when you are not willing to change your mind and you condemn those who don't believe as you do.

In the case of the Orthodox Church, our beliefs have been the same for 2000 years. Certain doctrines that are considered essential to the faith that were challenged by heresies were defined by ecumenical councils in the first thousand or so years of Christianity.

I don't hold my beliefs because of personal interpretation, but because of the witness of the Church over the last 2000 years, so I can't compromise on certain things. Nor is there any reason to compromise the truth...

That being said, the Orthodox Church also hasn't defined many of the beliefs that many Protestants and Catholics have, our theology is alot more organic and less rigid/legalistic...

So whatever the Orthodox church believes in, you will just automatically believe in it without question? Just asking.

 

[Mikeb85]

So whatever the Orthodox church believes in, you will just automatically believe in it without question? Just asking.

Well, I wasn't always Orthodox so at a time I did question everything, but yes, I do believe what the Church teaches, and everything that it has defined as doctrine.

Again though, keep in mind that many things that protestant groups would consider unshakeable doctrine, aren't rigidly defined by the Orthodox Church.

 

[radhead]

Hello, Rad.

Do you have doctrines you believe in strongly (minus the fundamentals) that you are willing to change your mind about if they are wrong?

Definitely. I have posted numerous threads about Calvinism, asking people to explain why they don't believe in it, and asking them to convince me of why it's wrong. I want to not believe in it. But so far, no one has given any good enough reasons not to believe it.

 

[Blank123]

got a link to that sermon? you can PM it to me if you don't want to post it

and for the record i don't agree with OSAS, i'm more what you might call a OSASSLAYP (Once saved always saved so long as you persevere) but its certainly not a salvation issue no matter which side of the coin you fall on.

 

[BokuWaKurohyou]

.

 

[WileyCoyote]

Doctrine really isn't what the faith is about. It's a springboard, a launching point to Christ.

Doctrine is VITALLY important. Yes, doctrine can point you toward Christ. But some doctrines can also point you away from Christ. Which is why we must make sure we are ok where doctrine is concerned.

Well, I wasn't always Orthodox so at a time I did question everything, but yes, I do believe what the Church teaches, and everything that it has defined as doctrine.

Again though, keep in mind that many things that protestant groups would consider unshakeable doctrine, aren't rigidly defined by the Orthodox Church.

Ok. Thanks for your input in this discussion.

Definitely. I have posted numerous threads about Calvinism, asking people to explain why they don't believe in it, and asking them to convince me of why it's wrong. I want to not believe in it. But so far, no one has given any good enough reasons not to believe it.

Just curious, why do you NOT want to believe in Calvinism? And have you asked God if Calvinism is right?

got a link to that sermon? you can PM it to me if you don't want to post it

and for the record i don't agree with OSAS, i'm more what you might call a OSASSLAYP (Once saved always saved so long as you persevere) but its certainly not a salvation issue no matter which side of the coin you fall on.

LOL at OSASSLAYP.

Here is a link to that sermon:

http://faithfulwordbaptist.org/072306p.mp3

 

[radhead]

Just curious, why do you NOT want to believe in Calvinism? And have you asked God if Calvinism is right?

It's not a major prayer issue right now. More of an interest in understanding God. So when I pray, this is not my greatest concern. I only ask for God to show me what the truth is.

The reason I want to understand other people's views is because I feel like I'm in a minority often times. (In times past I don't think I would have been in the minority, though.) I really don't want to be so differing with the people I know and fellowship with. But I don't know how important it it is anyway, since it's non essential doctrine.

On the other hand, when I hear teachers say things against it, I wonder if they are not quite in tune with God if they are: (1) going into doctrine at all, or (2) possibly teaching incorrect doctrine. They are going against the pioneers of the faith. They are going against what their spiritual forefathers believed.

 

[Blank123]

LOL at OSASSLAYP.

Here is a link to that sermon:

http://faithfulwordbaptist.org/072306p.mp3

ohhh Steven Anderson... i don't take seriously anything he teaches. he's discredited himself beyond repair IMHO.

 

[WileyCoyote]

I believe (and know) likewise. And, for some reason I am surprised to meet a creationist on CF ... but bravo!

LOL. Welcome to the anti-science, ignorance club.




I agree with you 100%, maybe even more. As Christians we are constantly seeking and searching for the Truth, because the adversary in this world is doing everything he can to dilute the message. I have changed my "beliefs" for Truth, but before I do that I have to really test that "new Truth" because satan comes as an angel of light also.

In short I agree with you 100%; it is for me a long process of spiritual reproof and testing before I accept anything new, but I entertain EVERYTHING (that goes for physics doctrine and bible/life doctrine). No one can say what is and isn't possible because as much as we hate to admit it (especially scientists) we aren't gods... so I am constantly searching for the Truth until I am with Him in spirit and soul.

Great post!

Thanks, bro. It really is a lifetime journey of learning and adjusting. And I agree with you that we must test doctrines out because Satan can try to introduce doctrine also.

It's not a major prayer issue right now. More of an interest in understanding God. So when I pray, this is not my greatest concern. I only ask for God to show me what the truth is.

The reason I want to understand other people's views is because I feel like I'm in a minority often times. (In times past I don't think I would have been in the minority, though.) I really don't want to be so differing with the people I know and fellowship with. But I don't know how important it it is anyway, since it's non essential doctrine.

On the other hand, when I hear teachers say things against it, I wonder if they are not quite in tune with God if they are: (1) going into doctrine at all, or (2) possibly teaching incorrect doctrine. They are going against the pioneers of the faith. They are going against what their spiritual forefathers believed.

Yeah, I hear you on being "in the minority".

While I don't agree with Calvinism, I also don't agree with the way many individuals attack it. I especially don't like people who attack it because of what someone told them about it instead of doing their own research on it. I own Calvin's "Institutes of the Christian Religion" so I can do my own research on it. I'll embrace what I agree with from it, and discard what I don't agree with. But at least this is going to come from my own research.

 

[WileyCoyote]

ohhh Steven Anderson... i don't take seriously anything he teaches. he's discredited himself beyond repair IMHO.

LOL. You should go to his church and tell him off. Just make sure you wear a dress when you enter his church because women can't wear pants in HIS church.

 

[IDDQD]

I was listening to a sermon online by an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist preacher...

You, sir, are a better man than me. If I had listened to a sermon online by an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist preacher, I would have most likely had a ragefit and screamed at the computer before busting a blood vessel in my temple.

 

[Blank123]

LOL. You should go to his church and tell him off. Just make sure you wear a dress when you enter his church because women can't wear pants in HIS church.

you want a woman to refute a man? and a man who is her elder? heretic!


I wonder if i should refute him from my NKJV or NIV

 

[EazyMack]

As long as it's coming out of the actual Bible, I'm open to it. And yes, there have been times where I've been swayed on certain doctrines. And there are doctrines that I am still on the fence about.

 

[WileyCoyote]

You, sir, are a better man than me. If I had listened to a sermon online by an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist preacher, I would have most likely had a ragefit and screamed at the computer before busting a blood vessel in my temple.

Well, I'm sure not all IFBP are like this guy. He is just one of the hard-core ones.

you want a woman to refute a man? and a man who is her elder? heretic!


I wonder if i should refute him from my NKJV or NIV

Careful, Ann. You might get some 1611 KJV Bibles thrown at your head.