Let’s talk about Donald Trump, Christian to Christian

[SolomonVII]

I think the example for our attitude toward government does not come from the failed theocracy that God’s Chosen people rejected. It comes from Jesus, and his rejection of the messianic zealotry to be the Resistance to Caesar. It is that ‘give unto Caesar ‘ attitude that sees the way to any meaningful transformation of society is based in an inner transformation though the Spirit of Christ.
Americans certainly are a revolutionary people, but their revolution was basically a conservative one that better defined the boundaries between that which belonged to Cesar and that which belongs to the Lord.
Tyranny does not have an election, it does not have a judicial process that keeps even presidents under control, it does not have a free press who can make any and every claim against a president, even innuendo and lies.

 

[jgarden]

The President of the United States is not a king. The Constitution however, is the supreme law of the land, and therefore the authority. Whether it's Obama or Trump, they are not above that law and need to be held accountable should they choose to break it.

This is a president, however, who has publically stated that he has the unrestricted constitutional power to pardon potential witnesses, family members and even himself - thus placing himself above the law!

 

[DW1980]

So I can read it for myself, where is that directive in scripture?

It's right throughout Scripture - speaking out for the oppressed, caring for the poor and vulnerable, I see that as all encompassing, whether the oppression comes from an individual, an organisation or a government.

Psalm 94:16, 20, "Who will rise up for me against the wicked? Who will take a stand for me against evildoers?... Can a corrupt throne be allied with you— a throne that brings on misery by its decrees?"

Amos 9:8 "Surely the eyes of the Sovereign Lord are on the sinful kingdom. I will destroy it from the face of the earth."

Look how Jesus addressed the authorities in his day, he wasn't afraid to call them out for what they were: "But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?”" (Matthew 3:7)

You have not answered my question - would you say the same thing if you lived in Nazi Germany, North Korea etc? Surely you agree that these are clear examples of abuse of authority, and that as God's people, we must speak out against that? If you do, then we are in agreement!

 

[miamited]

Hi margaret,

Just my understanding of what the Scriptures say and how they apply to governance.

You wrote:

God is a God of purpose, with a plan for each and every person, and the creator of the universe placed each of us where we are for a reason.

It is agreed that God is a God of purpose. It is not agreed that the Scriptures example or teach that He has a plan for each and every person beyond what is foretold of the day of His judgment. When we read passages where God speaks of having a plan for someone or some group, I don't think we can then interpolate that to mean that He has a plan for every person and every group.

God speaks through His servant Isaiah: “Woe to the obstinate children,” declares the LORD, “to those who carry out plans that are not mine, forming an alliance, but not by my Spirit, heaping sin upon sin;"

It would seem fairly obvious in these words of the Lord Himself that there are plans of men that succeed that are not the plans of God. The plans spoken of here are plans carried out among His people. God is speaking to Israel here. The question must be asked, if all the plans of men come from the Lord, then why does He rebuke Israel in this way? So, I would just be very careful in making any claim that because President Trump was elected President, then it must be by the Lord's plan. Secondly, if that were even true, then we must also agree that President Obama was set in place by the Lord and President Clinton, etc. So, for those who would speak against any president of our nation, then they would be speaking against the Lord.

It humors me, that the same people who would say that President Trump was assigned his place by the plans of God, but then in the very next breath speak against another president. Who by their own understanding of God's sovereign establishment of nation leaders, would also have been established by the Lord. How does one justify this idea that one leader was set in place by God but some other leader must not have been? How does one justify this idea that we should not speak against a particular president because his presidency was established by God, but then turn around and speak against the days of another president, who by their understanding of God's specific placement of all nation leaders, must have also been placed there by the Lord?

I don't get that, but I do believe the Scriptures. What the Scriptures tell us is that the division of nations has been established by God. Not necessarily the leaders of such nations who then follow. As I understand the Scriptures. Are we honestly to believe that men like Adolph Hitler, Idi Amin, Muamar Gaddafi, Saddam Hussein, etc., were given their places by God? If so, was not our nation complicit in sin by working to depose such men? How can one rationalize that all nation leaders are established by God's purpose and then claim righteousness in bringing wars and skirmishes to be rid of those men?

As has been pointed out earlier, God gave Israel a king, but it wasn't God's plan for Israel. Similarly, I believe that by the choice of the people of other nations, just as has been shown in God's dealing with Israel, He does allow the nations to choose their own leaders even though such a choice may not be in keeping with His plans.

So, in explaining more simply; God has established that there are various and sundry nations and that those nations have authority over their people by God's plan. But, this idea that then every leader to rise up in every nation is specifically and individually chosen by God, I am not in agreement with. But for those who do believe that God specifically and individually chooses all nation leaders, then they also must shut up in their complaints against those same leaders that came before.

Now, one might agree that God does specifically and individually establish all nation leaders, but some of them may be wicked leaders. Ok, then how do we justify that President Trump is not one of those chosen and established wicked leaders? Certainly from what I've seen of his nature, President Trump could not be confused as some godly person. Someone seeking after the righteousness of God. As far as I can tell, President Trump has never attended any fellowship service, as has been the practice of many previous presidents, the entire time of his time in office to this point. Where is President Trump on Sunday mornings? If he is a godly man should he not be showing us by example that he desires after God? Is it really your understanding that as a boasting fornicator he is a man seeking after God's heart? That by calling everyone who doesn't agree with him some derogatory name or attaching some derogatory title to their name, you see this as an example of a godly man who is seeking after God's heart?

So, I'm willing to almost agree that President Trump was set in place by God and that, so to, was President Obama and President Clinton and President Bush, but then I must decide whether they were established as our leader by God as righteous leaders or wicked leaders? Even when we look over the history of all the leaders established over Israel, both kingdoms, we find some righteous leaders and some unrighteous leaders and this is based on God's own claims about them through His Scriptures. The days of Ahab and Elijah would be a perfect example of such. Ahab was most obviously not a righteous king in God's sight.

Ahab also made an Asherah pole and did more to arouse the anger of the LORD, the God of Israel, than did all the kings of Israel before him.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[AmusingMargaret]

Hi margaret,

Just my understanding of what the Scriptures say and how they apply to governance.

You wrote:


It is agreed that God is a God of purpose. It is not agreed that the Scriptures example or teach that He has a plan for each and every person beyond what is foretold of the day of His judgment. When we read passages where God speaks of having a plan for someone or some group, I don't think we can then interpolate that to mean that He has a plan for every person and every group.

God speaks through His servant Isaiah: “Woe to the obstinate children,” declares the LORD, “to those who carry out plans that are not mine, forming an alliance, but not by my Spirit, heaping sin upon sin;"

It would seem fairly obvious in these words of the Lord Himself that there are plans of men that succeed that are not the plans of God. The plans spoken of here are plans carried out among His people. God is speaking to Israel here. The question must be asked, if all the plans of men come from the Lord, then why does He rebuke Israel in this way? So, I would just be very careful in making any claim that because President Trump was elected President, then it must be by the Lord's plan. Secondly, if that were even true, then we must also agree that President Obama was set in place by the Lord and President Clinton, etc. So, for those who would speak against any president of our nation, then they would be speaking against the Lord.

It humors me, that the same people who would say that President Trump was assigned his place by the plans of God, but then in the very next breath speak against another president. Who by their own understanding of God's sovereign establishment of nation leaders, would also have been established by the Lord. How does one justify this idea that one leader was set in place by God but some other leader must not have been? How does one justify this idea that we should not speak against a particular president because his presidency was established by God, but then turn around and speak against the days of another president, who by their understanding of God's specific placement of all nation leaders, must have also been placed there by the Lord?

I don't get that, but I do believe the Scriptures. What the Scriptures tell us is that the division of nations has been established by God. Not necessarily the leaders of such nations who then follow. As I understand the Scriptures. Are we honestly to believe that men like Adolph Hitler, Idi Amin, Muamar Gaddafi, Saddam Hussein, etc., were given their places by God? If so, was not our nation complicit in sin by working to depose such men? How can one rationalize that all nation leaders are established by God's purpose and then claim righteousness in bringing wars and skirmishes to be rid of those men?

As has been pointed out earlier, God gave Israel a king, but it wasn't God's plan for Israel. Similarly, I believe that by the choice of the people of other nations, just as has been shown in God's dealing with Israel, He does allow the nations to choose their own leaders even though such a choice may not be in keeping with His plans.

So, in explaining more simply; God has established that there are various and sundry nations and that those nations have authority over their people by God's plan. But, this idea that then every leader to rise up in every nation is specifically and individually chosen by God, I am not in agreement with. But for those who do believe that God specifically and individually chooses all nation leaders, then they also must shut up in their complaints against those same leaders that came before.

Now, one might agree that God does specifically and individually establish all nation leaders, but some of them may be wicked leaders. Ok, then how do we justify that President Trump is not one of those chosen and established wicked leaders? Certainly from what I've seen of his nature, President Trump could not be confused as some godly person. Someone seeking after the righteousness of God. As far as I can tell, President Trump has never attended any fellowship service, as has been the practice of many previous presidents, the entire time of his time in office to this point. Where is President Trump on Sunday mornings? If he is a godly man should he not be showing us by example that he desires after God? Is it really your understanding that as a boasting fornicator he is a man seeking after God's heart? That by calling everyone who doesn't agree with him some derogatory name or attaching some derogatory title to their name, you see this as an example of a godly man who is seeking after God's heart?

So, I'm willing to almost agree that President Trump was set in place by God and that, so to, was President Obama and President Clinton and President Bush, but then I must decide whether they were established as our leader by God as righteous leaders or wicked leaders? Even when we look over the history of all the leaders established over Israel, both kingdoms, we find some righteous leaders and some unrighteous leaders and this is based on God's own claims about them through His Scriptures. The days of Ahab and Elijah would be a perfect example of such. Ahab was most obviously not a righteous king in God's sight.

Ahab also made an Asherah pole and did more to arouse the anger of the LORD, the God of Israel, than did all the kings of Israel before him.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

Ted, thank you so much for taking the time to answer my musings. (On this site, sometimes I feel people are just picking apart what others are saying.) You hit on some things that I question, like does God love me individually or it is mankind as a whole that He loves? Do we have only religion, or do we have a relationship? Is the OT only for the Children of Israel? I find scripture in the NT and some in the OT, Psalms and Proverbs in particular, that makes me think, Yes, He loves me individually (and if he loves and knows ME, he surely has a plan/will for me). I'm working my way through the Bible this year (will be my third time to read it through)...and I find myself wishing I had more clear cut answers. But that's another post for another day, and I have digressed from my original post.

Because the Bible says Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. (Romans 13:1-2) I would have to believe that evil or not, leaders are God-appointed, and because 1 Timothy 2 says, "...I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority..." that we are to pray for them. If I were living under such bondage as the people in North Korea, Sudan, Nigeria, China, Pakistan, Syria...the list is vast...or as it was in the days of Hitler, would I find myself giving thanks for my leader? I don't know. But I believe I would be praying hard...just as I believe those in such bondage are praying now.

As for your very important questions concerning deposing evil leaders, of course I have no answer. But the questions certainly make me think.

Because President Trump isn't outwardly showing signs of living for Christ (for example, going to church) should probably remind us to pray for him even more. Regardless, I know he has people who are Christians around him (I pray for more such people), and I know that he allows Christians to pray for him, even with the laying on of hands. I believe for all his pride, his big talk, and his past transgressions, he can still be used by God (Israel). But we need a growing remnant to be sincerely praying, not a bunch of so-called Christians making excuses for their hatred and disrespect of the man and the office. We do have both...people are praying, people are hating.

Moses mentioned in Deut. 17 that Israel would demand a king..."When you come to the land the Lord your God is giving you...and then say, I will set a king over me...you may indeed set a king over you whom the Lord your God will choose. One from among your brothers you shall set as king over you..." This was long before they actually asked for a king. The Children of Israel wanting a king didn't catch God by surprise; He obviously planned for it...and planned for Saul; otherwise, Saul wouldn't have been chosen when he was chosen.

As far as Presidents go...the backlash against President Trump is worse than it has ever been in recent history, and I suspect in all of our history, that there has not ever been a President fought more. Some will argue against that, but none can prove it. However, my post isn't aimed at "the world," I expect them to act just as they are. But Christians have no business hating, maligning, disparaging, and refusing to pray for the president, even if his name is Donald Trump...and that is the purpose of my post. It does seem, however, that because I dare suggest we pray for our current leader, we need to dissect who prayed for the past administration, and who spoke evil, even though that day is gone.

Thank you again for your honest and sincere comment.

 

[miamited]

Hi margaret,

All good questions that you bring up in your opening paragraph and I would encourage you to seek answers to them. I would begin with working to understand the whole of the Scriptures.

However, in response as regards this thread, yes God's word does tell us that it is He that has established all authority. Yes, God's word does tell us to pray for those in authority over us. I neither deny nor refuse to follow any of that instruction. But, the specific paragraph of your OP that I was addressing was the paragraph that I linked to my response. Just as you have questions regarding God's love for us individually and whether one holds to a religion or a relationship as regards their fellowship with God, I also see the possibility of your having some questions about whether or not He specifically and purposely calls each individual nation leader when His word says that it is He who has established all authorities.

For me, knowing that there have obviously been wicked leaders throughout all of history, I have to find a way to justify this understanding that God does establish authorities, but that the individual leaders of those authorities can be corrupt. As I posted concerning Israel, any well read believer can clearly see that Israel had righteous leaders and Israel had wicked leaders. While I quoted the Scriptures regarding Ahab's reign, there are plenty of other kings of Israel that God's word tells us were wicked leaders.

My prayer for President Trump would be that God would search his heart and remove any unrighteousness in him that he might be a godly leader over the nation. You or I have never had to cower in our rooms listening to the sounds of authorities going through homes and apartments searching for us and our families that we might be loaded up in train cars like so many cattle with our fear filled children clinging to our legs crying and shaking with fear of what is in store for them. We've never been so humanly degraded as to be stripped down publicly to take communal baths in cold block rooms and then settled into a life of labor and starvation where we see our poor loved ones become emaciated to the point of mere skeletons covered with skin. Never been herded into those same cold block rooms by the hundreds and murdered with poison gas and our bodies thrown in ditch graves like so much trash.

So, while I agree that God tells us to pray for the authorities over us, I don't see that it says that we must have praise for the authorities over us. If, as in the situation described above, God did install that individual and specific leader over people, then it must surely be as a punishment or discipline to those people. As you have said, we are a wicked nation in many, many ways and I can't hardly imagine that God, looking over the United States as a whole, doesn't see us much like He also saw the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. Greedy godless people seeking after their hedonistic desires to satisfy the lusts of their flesh. Perhaps President Trump is God's chosen leader in the same way that Adolph Hitler was God's chosen leader.

So, while I can pray for President Trump and the Senators and Legislators and deputies and police men and women who serve every day as the authorities over us, I certainly don't have to say that I am in agreement with them in all things. I have to respect those authorities, but according to the book of Daniel, respect doesn't equate to agreement. It's just the attitude of one's disagreement.

So, that God may have installed President Trump to the position that he has attained is questionable. It would depend on whether one understands God's word that it is He who has established all authorities to mean that He has specifically and individually installed each and every person within the line of that authority, from the president to the local beat cop, or whether He has merely established that there are authorities that oversee the nations and then allowed those under that authority to choose whoever they will as those to hold those positions of authority. But, I agree that in either case we should pray for those in authority over us. The Scriptures say, not in these exact words, that it's a tough job they have.

As a last note, as I see it, President Trump likely has less respect for the authorities than most of us. He regularly and often speaks with disrespect towards those that he himself has put in authority and very often against those in authority that he may not have assigned them their position. Perhaps that would be another good prayer request to God. That He would give President Trump a heart of respect for others.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[AmusingMargaret]

I only said we weren't supposed to disparage our leaders...not that we have to praise them, or agree with them.

While I believe that the scripture means just what it says...I can't say I don't end up with a lot more questions...Kinda of like Job. The scripture reads as if God set the plan in motion for all that happened to him. I believe it happened just the way the Bible says it did, but I don't necessarily understand...

Thank you again for your responses!