Legislating morality

[Leanna]

- cheating on a partner

If there are kids in this relationship, I disagree. Mommy or daddy running off with the new lover hurts society a great deal by turning out adults that have gone through a lot of pain, don't see a stable marriage relationship, see the jilted spouses pain.... they become more likely to have failed relationships themselves... not to mention the "where's daddy?" comments.

- religious prosletyzing (particularly to children)
- creationism (although this falls into the one above)
- astrologers, soothsayers, 'psychics', etc.,
- hunting for sport
- racism/sexism/homophobia
etc., etc.

I don't consider these immoral activities, even if I don't participate in them.... believing in creationism or evolution is immoral?? Why can't people have their odd beliefs?

Oh, and no, speeding isn't immoral. It's prohibited because it's dangerous to society. But there's nothing immoral about my driving a car fast. There MIGHT be something immoral about my doing so where other people might be injured, but the law doesn't make that distinction. For example, there's nothing at all immoral about me driving my car at 100 mph on, say, the Nullabor plain, when there's nobody within ten miles. It's not speeding that's immoral, it's endangering others by doing so.

I agree.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

In general these things do not specifically endanger society yet society has seen fit to protect us and itself from these activities. Apparently there is some harm to the relationship among members of society, the violation of norms and values that society uses to hold itself together perhaps.
Is your point that these specific things are legal but are immoral, or that they are immoral and don't hurt society?
I listed particular values that society seem to find important that these things violate... so in this sense they hurt society.

All of those things are (IMO) immoral, and none of them are illegal.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

If there are kids in this relationship, I disagree. Mommy or daddy running off with the new lover hurts society a great deal by turning out adults that have gone through a lot of pain, don't see a stable marriage relationship, see the jilted spouses pain.... they become more likely to have failed relationships themselves... not to mention the "where's daddy?" comments.

Firstly, adultery doesn't always (or have to) lead to any of the above. I read somewhere (don't ask me where) that the majority of adultery is never discovered - so it leads to nothing - no hurt, no divorce, no 'where's daddy' - yet I still find it immoral.

I don't consider these immoral activities, even if I don't participate in them.... believing in creationism or evolution is immoral??

I do. Creationism is evil because it requires and pushes wilful ignorance, which I find immoral.

Why can't people have their odd beliefs?

They can. That doesn't mean everyone else has to find those beliefs (or the behaviours they lead to) correct, moral, or even sane.



I agree.[/quote]

 

[Leanna]

Firstly, adultery doesn't always (or have to) lead to any of the above. I read somewhere (don't ask me where) that the majority of adultery is never discovered - so it leads to nothing - no hurt, no divorce, no 'where's daddy' - yet I still find it immoral.

You're right, a majority does not end the marriage.... but I wouldn't say a majority is undiscovered. Many choose to forgive and stay, and the children and others never find out, only the spouse. But anyway its hard to prove either way.

I do. Creationism is evil because it requires and pushes wilful ignorance, which I find immoral.

I think I know what you mean and agree but don't want to side track the thread.

They can. That doesn't mean everyone else has to find those beliefs (or the behaviours they lead to) correct, moral, or even sane.

I think the main morality that should be legislated are things that most agree are immoral and hurt society, not smaller belief issues... that would ruin religious freedom.

 

[KCDAD]

Whatever you say. You must not live in the US.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

You're right, a majority does not end the marriage.... but I wouldn't say a majority is undiscovered. Many choose to forgive and stay, and the children and others never find out, only the spouse. But anyway its hard to prove either way.

Yes, it is - as I say, I can't remember where I read it (and I don't know if it's even true). But even if just some is never discovered, then it's true that adultery, in and of itself, doesn't lead to hurt of others.

I think the main morality that should be legislated are things that most agree are immoral and hurt society, not smaller belief issues... that would ruin religious freedom.

I don't think anything should be legislated because it's immoral. As far as laws go, I'm not in the least concerned with the morality of behaviours, but merely in their likelihood of harming other members of society.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

Whatever you say. You must not live in the US.

I've no idea what this is supposed to mean or to whom it is addressed.

 

[Leanna]

I've no idea what this is supposed to mean or to whom it is addressed.

No kidding. My American flag apparently isn't clear enough.

 

[faster_jackrabbit]

Having a beer on a couch is an immoral activity? You must have been raised Baptist or something....

Again, I don't think it is immoral, but baptists do. In the city of Dallas, there are wet and dry areas. You can buy booze in some parts of town and not others. Therefore booze is considered immoral by some people in Dallas, and those people force their morality on others by prohibiting liquor stores in some areas.

It directly ties in with the "legislating morality" concept.

The other two do no damage to society? You are forgetting that real people make those porn DVDs and real people are call girls ---you are forgetting the damage it does to the women and men involved in that industry. If you doubt me, go over to the forum here for people recovering from that industry. Supporting that in any way is completely immoral and disgusting, Christian or not.

I've said this in other threads, but for every Linda Lovelace or Traci Lords who says they were forced into porn, there is a Ginger Lynn or Nina Hartley or Jewel D'Nyle who proclaims that they absolutely love being a porn star.

Linda got born again after her porn career was over so my personal opinion is that she made up the "somebody made me" gag to shift the blame so her new church buddies wouldn't look down on her.

I'm not sure I believe Traci either. She went to extraordinary lengths to get into porn, causing a scandal when she lied about her age and was in some porn films at age 16. The porn producers wouldn't have hired her if they had known. If she was being "forced", all she had to do was tell the truth and she wouldn't have been in porn to get all this so-called abuse.

Have you talked to every porn star in the world? How do you know the hard luck cases are the norm, and not the exception? The ones that think they were "wronged" want to proclaim it to the world. The ones who are happy just quietly rake in the cash.

How many porn stars have you actually met? I have met two: Ginger Lynn and Christy Canyon, both legends from the mid eighties. They didn't seem particularly miserable to me, and were actually rather friendly and entertaining. I didn't see any henchmen of the porn producers lurking behind them with baseball bats.

Same with the prostitutes. Sure, low-rent streetwalkers have all kinds of problems, due to the people they hang around with, but they are not the entirety of prostitution. Call girls are a whole nother level. They typically don't have pimps, which is where most of the streetwalker problems come from. The high-octane call girls get several thousand dollars a night and live a lot better than we do.

 

[KCDAD]

No kidding. My American flag apparently isn't clear enough.

addressed to the Australian who said none of those things were illegal.

 

[faster_jackrabbit]

addressed to the Australian who said none of those things were illegal.

There was no way to tell it was addressed to him. You didn't quote and the post right before yours was an american.

 

[faster_jackrabbit]

I can give you a list of activities that I believe to be immoral which either do not harm society or do not harm society sufficiently to warrant making them illegal:

- cheating on a partner

Even I, heathen of heathens, don't agree with this. Adultery is the only sexual behavior performed by consenting adults that I feel is wrong. It doesn't hurt society, but it does directly hurt someone who has not consented to the act.

 

[Aras]

Even I, heathen of heathens, don't agree with this. Adultery is the only sexual behavior performed by consenting adults that I feel is wrong. It doesn't hurt society, but it does directly hurt someone who has not consented to the act.

It can also be argued that even off of a moral standpoint it is violating a contract. (marriage vows and all that jazz)

 

[faster_jackrabbit]

It can also be argued that even off of a moral standpoint it is violating a contract. (marriage vows and all that jazz)

Yes, it is a form of cheating. In fact, it is usually referred to that way. "(S)he's been cheating on me".

 

[Electric Skeptic]

addressed to the Australian who said none of those things were illegal.

None of them are illegal in the US, either.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

Even I, heathen of heathens, don't agree with this. Adultery is the only sexual behavior performed by consenting adults that I feel is wrong. It doesn't hurt society, but it does directly hurt someone who has not consented to the act.

As outlined above, it often/sometimes doesn't hurt anyone. What you don't know doesn't hurt you.

It can also be argued that even off of a moral standpoint it is violating a contract. (marriage vows and all that jazz)

Not everyone's marriage vows include fidelity.

 

[faster_jackrabbit]

As outlined above, it often/sometimes doesn't hurt anyone. What you don't know doesn't hurt you.

I see your point. I still wouldn't do it though, just due to my own guilt about it.

The way I look at it, if you're going to do that, what's the point of being married? Why not just stay single and do anyone you want?

 

[Electric Skeptic]

I see your point. I still wouldn't do it though, just due to my own guilt about it.

Nor would I. As I stated earlier, I find it immoral. But I don't think that because I find it immoral, it should be illegalised. The ONLY valid grounds for illegalising something is that it harms others. And, of course, personal relationships harm others all the time. Excluding marriage from the question entirely, people fall in and out of love, love unrequited, and so forth. People being heartbroken isn't grounds for illegalisation.

 

[faster_jackrabbit]

Oh, right. I wasn't proposing that it be against the law either.

 

[Aras]

I suppose despite my disgust with the practice I wouldn't necessarily illegalise it either... some people may only view it as a physical release for all I know, and some couples may know about a partner's sexual activities. It depends on the individual I guess. But I do find it potentially illegal if the vows you've taken include faithfullness and fidelity as that is violating a verbal contract. Otherwise though, I agree it can't truly be banned no matter how much I disagree with it.