legalism

[cyberlizard]

anyone care to define it for me... it get's used a lot on the forum, but I have never seen anyone give it a concrete definition.


Steve

 

[RefCath]

The proper meaning of legalism is the belief that by doing something we can make ourselves better in God's sight. Unfortunately some use the term as a way of abusing those who say that Christians shouldn't do certain things.

 

[E.C.]

Following the letter at the expense of the spirit of the law.

 

[Christownsme]

Following the letter at the expense of the spirit of the law.

I like this definition a lot, although they are both good so far. There's a verse in Matthew 9:13 where Jesus says,

Go and learn what this means, "I desire mercy, and not sacrifice". For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.

I like this description from Jesus, that he'd rather see mercy than even self-sacrifice. You can mechanically sacrifice all day long, and not have mercy in your heart. Jesus is saying the heart attitude of mercy is more important.
Then He goes one step further, and says those who are sacrificing their behavior and not their heart are not called, since they've lost their sense of need for a savior (they have become legalistic, self sufficient, self righteous); but Jesus calls sinners because sinners often have an authentic need and expression for their need to Jesus.

 

[ElijahW]

Believing you need to obey the Law or specific behavior is a requirement for salvation, instead of faith in Jesus.

Obeying the Law to the letter or extra rituals isn't an issue unless you think your or others salvation is dependent on that.

 

[Frogster]

It's what happens when people do not understand the cross. In Paul's case it was his law centered judaism.


New International Version
Phil 3:6 as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless.


The cross is a scandal to works.


Gal 5:11But *I*, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why am I yet persecuted? Then the scandal of the cross has been done away.

 

[Frogster]

anyone care to define it for me... it get's used a lot on the forum, but I have never seen anyone give it a concrete definition.


Steve

Gal 2, describes it, Peter returns back to antiquated food laws, thus declaring the other Christians "sinners" because of it. All the Jewish Christians in Antioch were living as gentiles, doing fine, until the truth of the gospel got altered by Peter's legalsim. Really, living as Jewish person, was in a broad sense, legalism.



Gal 2:14 But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?”

Here is the declaration of his actions, just like how Sabbatarians have to condemn non Sabbatarians. Ramifications to his actions, and possibly even his teachings.


15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not "Gentile sinners"

 

[Stryder06]

Believing you need to obey the Law or specific behavior is a requirement for salvation, instead of faith in Jesus.

Obeying the Law to the letter or extra rituals isn't an issue unless you think your or others salvation is dependent on that.

Deut 6:5
Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.

That sounds like a commandment to me? Am I being legalistic if I keep that command?

How about this?
Luke 10: 25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 26He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

Why did Christ imply that the answer to the question "what must I do to inherit eternal life" was found "written in the law"?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

legalism

anyone care to define it for me... it get's used a lot on the forum, but I have never seen anyone give it a concrete definition.


Steve

For legal advice, I would contact the nearest lawyer

Young) Luke 11:46 and He said, `And to ye, the lawyers, woe! because ye burden men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yeselves with one of your fingers do not touch the burdens.
52 `Woe to ye, the lawyers, because ye took away the key of the knowledge; yeselves not ye enter; and those coming in, ye did hinder.'

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of the tormenting of Them is ascending into Ages to-Ages.......... [Luke 16:24,26]

 

[MrPolo]

anyone care to define it for me... it get's used a lot on the forum, but I have never seen anyone give it a concrete definition.

In my years of hearing the term used many times on local Christian radio, they use it in the context to describe the belief that to be saved, you have to go through certain motions, a checklist so to speak----do X, Y, Z and you're saved. MacArthur has used the term "automatic" to describe legalism. Legalist-accusers think that legalists don't believe their heart has to be in the right place, but that they must perform certain acts and that's how they're saved. They caricaturize, say, the sacraments, as legalistic actions. They think sacramental churches believe that eating the bread automatically saves. Or going to confession automatically saves. The action trumps any disposition of the heart. You just have to do the actions right and you're saved.

Granted, most people who accuse others of legalism overwhelmingly misunderstand and misrepresent what the others believe.

 

[ElijahW]

Deut 6:5
Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.
That sounds like a commandment to me? Am I being legalistic if I keep that command?
How about this?
Luke 10: 25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 26He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

Why did Christ imply that the answer to the question "what must I do to inherit eternal life" was found "written in the law"?

It does but the context of the story is that Jesus is being put to the test and is allowing the other person to answer a correct answer. A correct, not the, or all of the correct answers. If you are a Jew then obedience to the Law was and still is (Should be?)a way to eternal life.

I’m not sure how much Jesus pushes the idea of salvation thru faith in him in the Synoptics. John and mostly Paul are where the Gospel of Grace gets explored and explained for the most part.

Here is Paul explaining why some people have to keep the Law.

Gal 5:3 “I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.”

There are people who are in a situation like that. And then those who are under grace where ““All things are lawful,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful,” but not all things build up.” 1 Cor 10:23

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Believing you need to obey the Law or specific behavior is a requirement for salvation, instead of faith in Jesus.

Obeying the Law to the letter or extra rituals isn't an issue unless you think your or others salvation is dependent on that.

Hello and welcome to the GT "den of lions" board.
According to Reve 14:12 it has to be both
As an example, the unbelieving abrahamic religions of Judaism and Islam do not follow Jesus

Search for 'Genesis 1:1' in the version

Young) Revelation 14:12 Here is endurance of the saints:
here [are] those keeping the commands of God, and the faith of Jesus.'

http://www.christianforums.com/t5615012-46/#post36126961
Jesus Christ, was he sent for all mankind?

 

[Stryder06]

It does but the context of the story is that Jesus is being put to the test and is allowing the other person to answer a correct answer. A correct, not the, or all of the correct answers. If you are a Jew then obedience to the Law was and still is (Should be?)a way to eternal life.

If by law then it's not by grace, thus man has a right to boast. Will there be some in heaven who made it by the sweat of their own brow?

I’m not sure how much Jesus pushes the idea of salvation thru faith in him in the Synoptics. John and mostly Paul are where the Gospel of Grace gets explored and explained for the most part.

The gospel of grace goes way back to the old testament. You'll find it first in Eden, then with Noah, then Abraham and so forth, till a dramatic picture of it is given to us in the wilderness sanctuary.

Here is Paul explaining why some people have to keep the Law.

Gal 5:3 “I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.”

There are people who are in a situation like that. And then those who are under grace where ““All things are lawful,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful,” but not all things build up.” 1 Cor 10:23

Paul's argument about men keeping the whole law was meant to awaken them to the fact that they hadn't. Men will always fall at some point in time. If you are trying to live by the law as a way of gaining salvation then you are damned. That's what Paul was trying to say.

 

[Frogster]

I won't mention names, but on my legalism thread, two different SDA people, declared all to be in the act of sinning, if they eat pork, or don't keep Sabby, classic legalism.

 

[Frogster]

If by law then it's not by grace, thus man has a right to boast. Will there be some in heaven who made it by the sweat of their own brow?


The gospel of grace goes way back to the old testament. You'll find it first in Eden, then with Noah, then Abraham and so forth, till a dramatic picture of it is given to us in the wilderness sanctuary.



Paul's argument about men keeping the whole law was meant to awaken them to the fact that they hadn't. Men will always fall at some point in time. If you are trying to live by the law as a way of gaining salvation then you are damned. That's what Paul was trying to say.

However gospel grace, the regin of that grace, did not maifest until the one act of righteousness, by the one man, as seen in Rom 5.

Announcing, and manifesting, are two different things.

Paul is also saying, that if one walks under law, there will be sin arousal. That makes for legalism, because then, instead of the Spirit taking over, it leads to legalistic projections onto others, hence, so and so is a sinner, because they are not of the rule book.

 

[Stryder06]

However gospel grace, the regin of that grace, did not maifest until the one act of righteousness, by the one man, as seen in Rom 5.

Announcing, and manifesting, are two different things.

Paul is also saying, that if one walks under law, there will be sin arousal. That makes for legalism, because then, instead of the Spirit taking over, it leads to legalistic projections onto others, hence, so and so is a sinner, because they are not of the rule book.

No time for your games today. You can answer the question below or get ignored. Your choice.

Deut 6:5
Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.

That sounds like a commandment to me? Am I being legalistic if I keep that command?

 

[Frogster]

No time for your games today. You can answer the question below or get ignored. Your choice.

Deut 6:5
Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.

That sounds like a commandment to me? Am I being legalistic if I keep that command?

You keep saying the "games comment", so far I have not reported you, but don't push it please, if you can't rebutt, don't get rude, just say.."frogster, I have no scriptural defense"..

Then frog will say.."ok bro, no big deal"

That is proper internet behavior.

 

[ElijahW]

If by law then it's not by grace, thus man has a right to boast. Will there be some in heaven who made it by the sweat of their own brow?

Who is boasting about what?

I think there is a nice spot in Heaven for those who work for the kingdom’s sake... regardless if they know whose kingdom it is. To clarify though, I think you can get to heaven without faith in Jesus or obedience to the Law; I don’t think Heaven/Kingdom of God will be realized without Jesus being established King.

The gospel of grace goes way back to the old testament. You'll find it first in Eden, then with Noah, then Abraham and so forth, till a dramatic picture of it is given to us in the wilderness sanctuary.

I’m unsure of what you are talking about. The Gospel o f Grace has to do with engrafting the Gentiles into the promise of eternal life through faith in Jesus, instead of obedience to the Law.

Paul's argument about men keeping the whole law was meant to awaken them to the fact that they hadn't. Men will always fall at some point in time. If you are trying to live by the law as a way of gaining salvation then you are damned. That's what Paul was trying to say.

I agree that was a point he was making because he was promoting the Grace path. That still doesn’t mean that you can’t just keep the Law like Jesus says in Luke to gain eternal life. It is very difficult though.

 

[Stryder06]

You keep saying the "games comment", so far I have not reported you, but don't push it please, if you can't rebutt, don't get rude, just say.."frogster, I have no scriptural defense"..

Then frog will say.."ok bro, no big deal"

That is proper internet behavior.

You can go ahead and report, and I'll report you for every time you say I don't post scripture, and for every time you blatantly misrepresent what I say to push your own agenda.

Proper behavior period is to respectfully answer questions while simultaneously respecting the viewpoints of those you are talking with. You do neither. You ignore questions, laugh and make light of what we believe, then try to bait us in to damning you just because we say you're wrong.

The ironic part is that you are just as much of a legalist, by your own definition, as anyone else is. So yeah, last time:

Deut 6:5
Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.

That sounds like a commandment to me? Am I being legalistic if I keep that commandment?

 

[Stryder06]

Who is boasting about what?

Paul says we are saved by grace not works lest any man should boast. That's why I was asking that. If someone is saved by their works, then that means they have room to boast.

I think there is a nice spot in Heaven for those who work for the kingdom’s sake... regardless if they know whose kingdom it is. To clarify though, I think you can get to heaven without faith in Jesus or obedience to the Law; I don’t think Heaven/Kingdom of God will be realized without Jesus being established King.

Not sure I'm following you.

I’m unsure of what you are talking about. The Gospel o f Grace has to do with engrafting the Gentiles into the promise of eternal life through faith in Jesus, instead of obedience to the Law.

God has always required obedience to the law. And what exactly is the gospel of grace? Gentiles were always able to join with Israel. The requirements for them to join have changed, that's all.

I agree that was a point he was making because he was promoting the Grace path. That still doesn’t mean that you can’t just keep the Law like Jesus says in Luke to gain eternal life. It is very difficult though.

Keeping the law is impossible without the power of God working in you to do good works. What do you mean by "grace path"?