Legal victory for fired transgendered teacher in suit against Catholic school

[Luther073082]

So how should we help transsexuals then?

I'm not sure but counseling and therapy would be a start.

The problem is we went straight from locking people like this away and casting them away from society straight to you have to accept everything they do with nothing in between.

I can put up with gay marriage because gay marriage in my view doesn't hurt others or hurts society anymore then we already are. I don't accept it on a personal basis but I'm not overly bothered by it being a legal arrangement. It does not entirely re-make society, nor are most people put in awkward situations because of it.

Transsexualism is very different. We are a culture that has always believed that if a woman needs to get changed or go to the bathroom in public she should do it with other women and vice versa. On top of that we separate sports by gender.

This is necessary for the comfort of people in this culture and especially necessary for sports as most women would not be able to compete in most sports against men.

The idea of transsexualism that one can change their gender causes problems in multiple areas of society. From sports, to bathrooms and locker-rooms to census data.

And as has been shown in this thread in order for it to really work in this society one would have to tear apart important things in our culture, essentially causing our culture to treat gender just like race. However gender can't be treated just like race. We can't have men and women competing against each other in sports or else they will just all become men's sports teams.

And I submit that if we live in a world where we do decide to treat gender just like race then I see no reason why a person can't be whatever race they decide they are.

The idea that society should just treat you as a woman would de-construct society as we know it. And I don't believe that we should de-construct all of society just because a few people have decided they don't like the gender they where born as. The problem is their own not ours.

 

[LoAmmi]

Something like .3% of the US Population identify as transgender. It seems like such a small number of actual people for us to be getting panties in a bunch over as a society. It also seems to be built upon a faulty notion anyway; that once it is acceptable all kinds of people will just randomly be changing gender to suit their current desire like some sort of free-for-all.

I suspect that 99.5 percent of the population are just fine with their gender the way it is with the possible exception of some gender stereotypes that exist.

I'm not sure but counseling and therapy would be a start.

The problem is we went straight from locking people like this away and casting them away from society straight to you have to accept everything they do with nothing in between.

I can put up with gay marriage because gay marriage in my view doesn't hurt others or hurts society anymore then we already are. I don't accept it on a personal basis but I'm not overly bothered by it being a legal arrangement. It does not entirely re-make society, nor are most people put in awkward situations because of it.

Transsexualism is very different. We are a culture that has always believed that if a woman needs to get changed or go to the bathroom in public she should do it with other women and vice versa. On top of that we separate sports by gender.

This is necessary for the comfort of people in this culture and especially necessary for sports as most women would not be able to compete in most sports against men.

The idea of transsexualism that one can change their gender causes problems in multiple areas of society. From sports, to bathrooms and locker-rooms to census data.

And as has been shown in this thread in order for it to really work in this society one would have to tear apart important things in our culture, essentially causing our culture to treat gender just like race. However gender can't be treated just like race. We can't have men and women competing against each other in sports or else they will just all become men's sports teams.

And I submit that if we live in a world where we do decide to treat gender just like race then I see no reason why a person can't be whatever race they decide they are.

The idea that society should just treat you as a woman would de-construct society as we know it. And I don't believe that we should de-construct all of society just because a few people have decided they don't like the gender they where born as. The problem is their own not ours.

 

[Cute Tink]

I'm not sure but counseling and therapy would be a start.

I don't know about universally, but most places require it. Extensively. The problem came about that therapy and counseling alone don't fix the problem. It has been tried.

Transsexualism is very different. We are a culture that has always believed that if a woman needs to get changed or go to the bathroom in public she should do it with other women and vice versa. On top of that we separate sports by gender.

Snipped for brevity.

I agree that people who have testosterone in their systems tend to build muscle faster and that gives a physical advantage. However, MtFs undergoing HRT have to block T to experience the changes that are desired. Those who are post-op do not produce T anymore. That advantage is gone after a few months/years (depending on your physical shape before starting HRT).

I think there is an additional element to bring into consideration. How much do people really know about what it means to be transsexual? Given the questions and statements I have seen here and elsewhere online, not that much. I have little doubt that this ignorance is creating at least some of the discomfort involved in the situation.

Even religious people are conflicted as to whether getting/pursuing SRS is even a sin (not getting involved there, as it I don't have a horse in that race).

Yes, many people are very uncomfortable with the idea of someone who was born male being in a female restroom. Apparently the discomfort only exists toward MtFs because I really don't hear about FtMs creating a stir. If a cis-woman is in danger in the restroom, it is because of the specific person involved, not because that person happens to also be trans.

 

[KatherineS]

The interesting thing about this given all of the controversy over women's ordination is that the school is arguing that the teacher is clergy in the Catholic Church.

 

[Tallguy88]

The interesting thing about this given all of the controversy over women's ordiantion is that the school is arguing that the teacher is clergy in the Catholic Church.

Similar to that incident where a Catholic hospital was sued for accidentally killing an unborn child and argued in court that a fetus is not a person with legal rights.

 

[Dusky Mouse]

The interesting thing about this given all of the controversy over women's ordination is that the school is arguing that the teacher is clergy in the Catholic Church.

I thought they were arguing that as a male he was considered clergy.

 

[1Feather]

I thought they were arguing that as a male he was considered clergy.

This is excerpted from the article in post 1:

Judge Hart then rejected a separate motion by the school that Krolikowski's was essentially a minister, and that religious institutions have the right to hire and fire those employees without court interference.

That's correct. As a man Krilokowski was considered clergy. But now as a cross dressing male who puts on the appearance of female he is insubordinate to his position because the RCC hasn't recognized women as clergy.

This is what happens when marriage is redefined to include the abomination that is gay sex/gay couples seeking to enter into the traditional institution.
All manner of other offenses before God demand to be treated equally rather than treated as those needing salvation, redemption, and treatment.

God helps us.

 

[KatherineS]

So in the Catholic Church teachers are clergy not laity. I had not heard that before.

 

[Tallguy88]

So in the Catholic Church teachers are clergy not laity. I had not heard that before.

They are trying to argue it legally. The LCMS successfully argued one of its female teachers was clergy, therefore they could fire her, even though the LCMS forbids women pastors.

 

[Sumwear]

Can you imagine how up in arms they would be if a Christian employee was fired by gay or trans employers? And rightly so! They just can't see it from the "other" side.

I have a rough time siding with someone who willfully takes a job and agrees to the rules only for them to turn around and say they are without error. is sexual reassignment acceptable in catholcism? I don't see how you let that slide when catholic schools have fired other teachers for living and doing things that are an affront to catholic teaching. just a hint or anything remotely close in putting forth another faith or none above catholcism has earned teachers a pink slip in the past.

 

[Tallguy88]

I have a rough time siding with someone who willfully takes a job and agrees to the rules only for them to turn around and say they are without error. is sexual reassignment acceptable in catholcism? I don't see how you let that slide when catholic schools have fired other teachers for living and doing things that are an affront to catholic teaching. just a hint or anything remotely close in putting forth another faith or none above catholcism has earned teachers a pink slip in the past.

Was she aware of her transsexualism 17 years ago? Maybe she struggled and fought against it. Or was in denial. I'm not saying the school was wrong to fire her. I'm just not automatically willing to take their side. I'd rather wait and see what happens at trial. Hopefully they can reach a settlement.

 

[treet_317]

The problem is we went straight from locking people like this away and casting them away from society straight to you have to accept everything they do with nothing in between.

.

Its only been very recently that they have benefited from any anti discrimination laws, several decades after they stopped throwing them in jail. They are still the most discriminated against segment of society. I have experienced it myself, as have most of my friends who share similar medical histories. From that side of the fence there is nothing sudden about any of this. Rather its been a long, slow fight for a fair chance in our society.

The idea of transsexualism that one can change their gender causes problems in multiple areas of society. From sports, to bathrooms and locker-rooms to census data.

Most transsexuals would argue that they are not changing their gender, but changing their bodies to match their gender. The real problems it creates? Its mostly peoples fears and what if's.

 

[KatherineS]

They are trying to argue it legally. The LCMS successfully argued one of its female teachers was clergy, therefore they could fire her, even though the LCMS forbids women pastors.

Lutheranism has a theology that teachers are ministers, much like we Catholics see deacons. LCMS does not allow women pastors but has been fuzzy if female teachers are ministers like male teachers. One of the reasons they ended up in court is that they were reluctant to admit that women teachers were ministers to keep a conservative minority happy. They won the lawsuit but had to put down their right wing in doing so.

 

[Luther073082]

Snipped for brevity.

I agree that people who have testosterone in their systems tend to build muscle faster and that gives a physical advantage. However, MtFs undergoing HRT have to block T to experience the changes that are desired. Those who are post-op do not produce T anymore. That advantage is gone after a few months/years (depending on your physical shape before starting HRT).

I think there is an additional element to bring into consideration. How much do people really know about what it means to be transsexual? Given the questions and statements I have seen here and elsewhere online, not that much. I have little doubt that this ignorance is creating at least some of the discomfort involved in the situation.

Even religious people are conflicted as to whether getting/pursuing SRS is even a sin (not getting involved there, as it I don't have a horse in that race).

Yes, many people are very uncomfortable with the idea of someone who was born male being in a female restroom. Apparently the discomfort only exists toward MtFs because I really don't hear about FtMs creating a stir. If a cis-woman is in danger in the restroom, it is because of the specific person involved, not because that person happens to also be trans.

For the record I also said that I don't want to be in a restroom with women.

Your issue with the MtF being treated differently from the FtM ties in quite a bit with why women often got away with taking showers in the restrooms on men's floors when I was in college but such a thing would never happen in reverse or else the man would have been arrested, and branded as a pervert.

It's also the reason for this.

 

[Cute Tink]

For the record I also said that I don't want to be in a restroom with women.

Your issue with the MtF being treated differently from the FtM ties in quite a bit with why women often got away with taking showers in the restrooms on men's floors when I was in college but such a thing would never happen in reverse or else the man would have been arrested, and branded as a pervert.

It's also the reason for this.

I get that people have their reasons. What I would like to see less of is paranoid ignorance (not saying this is you) about the whole situation. We are not in these places to check people out (doesn't make sense anyway because SSA people are still allowed); we are not in there to invade; we are not in there to flash our parts; we are in these places for the same reasons that you are.

It doesn't usually fail that I pretty much see paranoid posts on this subject all the time that are based completely in ignorance (sometimes deliberate ignorance). That's what I'm tired of. I can't have an intelligent conversation with someone who insists I (and those like me) have intentions that we don't.

 

[Genersis]

...
It doesn't usually fail that I pretty much see paranoid posts on this subject all the time that are based completely in ignorance (sometimes deliberate ignorance). That's what I'm tired of. I can't have an intelligent conversation with someone who insists I (and those like me) have intentions that we don't.

I think the purposeful ignorance and assigning of malicious intentions will always be common; at least on these forums anyway.

 

[Luther073082]

I get that people have their reasons. What I would like to see less of is paranoid ignorance (not saying this is you) about the whole situation. We are not in these places to check people out (doesn't make sense anyway because SSA people are still allowed); we are not in there to invade; we are not in there to flash our parts; we are in these places for the same reasons that you are.

It doesn't usually fail that I pretty much see paranoid posts on this subject all the time that are based completely in ignorance (sometimes deliberate ignorance). That's what I'm tired of. I can't have an intelligent conversation with someone who insists I (and those like me) have intentions that we don't.

That may be true, but no matter your intentions I would and I'm sure my wife would feel very uncomfortable with you in the women's bathroom. In the couple times I have seen women in the men's room I'm both [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ed and uncomfortable. [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ed because I know that no matter what I did, nothing would ever happen to her because literally no one cares if women use the men's room. But when the opposite happens the whole area goes on a hunt for a sex fiend. And I'm uncomfortable because I really don't want to be in a public bathroom with women.

You also have to consider the fact that while your intentions are "I feel like a woman" expecting and receiving certain things and treatment from other people is going to lead to people with other intentions trying to take advantage.

 

[Cute Tink]

That may be true, but no matter your intentions I would and I'm sure my wife would feel very uncomfortable with you in the women's bathroom. In the couple times I have seen women in the men's room I'm both [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ed and uncomfortable. [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ed because I know that no matter what I did, nothing would ever happen to her because literally no one cares if women use the men's room. But when the opposite happens the whole area goes on a hunt for a sex fiend. And I'm uncomfortable because I really don't want to be in a public bathroom with women.

You also have to consider the fact that while your intentions are "I feel like a woman" expecting and receiving certain things and treatment from other people is going to lead to people with other intentions trying to take advantage.

Well the general idea is that, with some careful makeup and presentation, people will simply assume that I am female and not think much about it. There are some women that you would never even question. While I'm not lucky enough to be one of those (at least not now), that's the intention. I'm not expecting certain treatment (other than not being attacked), so while people may see things that way, that is their own bias speaking. I'm really not going to expend much time and stress worrying about what other people are going to think I'm out for.

 

[pastor_jay]

Luther,I do not see the comparison between a Transgender person and someone who patronizes prostitutes.The latter involves a behavior which violates the law.A transgender person feels that they were born in the wrong body.As Christians,we need to be more tolerant as those who are on the fringe of society are especially in need of love and support and God's grace.

 

[mark46]

That may be true, but no matter your intentions I would and I'm sure my wife would feel very uncomfortable with you in the women's bathroom. In the couple times I have seen women in the men's room I'm both [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ed and uncomfortable. [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ed because I know that no matter what I did, nothing would ever happen to her because literally no one cares if women use the men's room. But when the opposite happens the whole area goes on a hunt for a sex fiend. And I'm uncomfortable because I really don't want to be in a public bathroom with women.

You also have to consider the fact that while your intentions are "I feel like a woman" expecting and receiving certain things and treatment from other people is going to lead to people with other intentions trying to take advantage.

Consider a young women who has this surgery as a teen and know dresses and looks like a man. Say this person is 25 years old. I submit that this person should be in the men's room. Consider the obvious disruption if he were to use the women's rest room.

IMHO, the issues come up when a person is the process of change, before or after surgery. Obviously, there is also an issue with those who dress in the clothes of the other sex. However, those who have "changed" their sex and dress appropriately are NOT a problem, unless a political entity creates a problem.