Leftist ‘faith leaders’ twisting Bible to support wasteful gov't spending

[Michie]

We’re seeing a society become unhinged … again. Trump has quite a way with the radical Left. They absolutely hate him and DOGE, and they lose it by the hour. Now they’re burning Teslas (so much for climate care), raging in hotel lobbies and on college campuses to defend Hamas supporters, and cursing up a storm at rallies.

It's not just paid activists and politicians jumping into the resistance ring; it’s leftist “faith leaders” too. Recently, nearly 100 “progressive” religious folks signed a letter demanding an unbiblical “Return to Jesus.” The Lent letter demanded that hundreds of millions of dollars of wasted taxpayer dollars continue to flow to (leftist) NGOs.

Funny. I don’t recall the Bible ever advocating that government fund the Church. I don’t recall Jesus demanding the government take care of the poor and the needy and ensure justice for those being crushed. Oh, wait, that’s because that’s the Church’s job. But a social justice worldview sees forced taxpayer funding of (leftist) faith-based organizations (despite massive taxpayer fraud and little to no accountability) as good stewardship.

Continued below.

Leftist ‘faith leaders’ twisting Bible to support wasteful gov't spending

It s not just paid activists and politicians jumping into the resistance ring; it s leftist faith leaders too

www.christianpost.com

 

[Vambram]

The author might want to read the Old Testament.

Perhaps you might want to remember that there is a huge difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament, as well as differences in the rules our Lord God through His prophets and apostles gave to Israel and to the Church.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Leftists seem to have no problem with viewing other people's money as theirs. It's really strange and immoral.

 

[Vambram]

I am familiar with the theological discussions. But those discussions do not change the inaccuracy of the author's statement.

Therefore, your post #2 of this thread is confusing. Please explain your response to that quote from the article.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

For pity sake

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[Vambram]

There are multiple cases where the Bible advocates for the government to fund the church, particularly in the Old Testament. Simply because some Christians have differing opinions on the relationship between the Old and New Testament doesn't change that. And, as such, the author is wrong.

The Church is not in the Old Testament.

 

[FireDragon76]

The Church is not in the Old Testament.

Yes, it arguably is. In Eastern Orthodoxy, that understanding is normative, in fact.

The notion that the Old Testament isn't applicable in terms of authority is rejected in Lutheranism and in classical Reformed theology as well. The Old Testament is still read in our liturgies extensively.

It's quite bigoted to insist that non-Evangelical groups like the African Methodist Episcopal Church don't have genuine "faith leaders", or that Sojourners is nothing more than a magazine pushing a political narrative masquerading as religion. This is a direct attack on the spiritual integrity of our churches, and is quite bigoted and wrong.

 

[Vambram]

Adherents of Covenant Theology would disagree.

See for example, an analysis of 1 Peter 2:4-10 by Brent Parker:


As I said, I'm familiar with the theological discussions.

I am also familiar with the theological discussions. The OT has lots of typologies. However, those typologies are not the same as saying that the Church was actually in the Old Testament.

 

[Vambram]

Yes, it arguably is. In Eastern Orthodoxy, that understanding is normative, in fact.

The notion that the Old Testament isn't applicable in terms of authority is rejected in Lutheranism and in classical Reformed theology as well. The Old Testament is still read in our liturgies extensively.

It's quite bigoted to insist that non-Evangelical groups like the African Methodist Episcopal Church don't have genuine "faith leaders", or that Sojourners is nothing more than a magazine pushing a political narrative masquerading as religion. This is a direct attack on the spiritual integrity of our churches, and is quite bigoted and wrong.

The Old Testament is, of course, authoritative with history, Creationism, theology, prophecy, and also godly living. However, the Church is not actually in the Old Testament. The Apostle Paul wrote about this, which he called "the mystery" in Ephesians 3:1-11

 

[FireDragon76]

The Old Testament is, of course, authoritative with history, Creationism, theology, prophecy, and also godly living. However, the Church is not actually in the Old Testament. The Apostle Paul wrote about this, which he called "the mystery" in Ephesians 3:1-11

Paul's revelation of the mystery of the Church in no way suggests the Church didn't have pre-existence.

The logic is that since Christ is the eternal Logos, and the Church is the body of Christ, the Church is eternal. Reformed theology also has the doctrine of the pactum salutaris, or covenant of salvation, which is a similar idea. Salvation in Christ reflects who God has always been to his people.

Dispensationalist theology badly distorted how many American Christians have read the Old Testament, seeing a discontinuity between the Old and New Covenants. This is not how theologians like Luther or Calvin understood covenant theology.

 

[FreeinChrist]

We’re seeing a society become unhinged … again. Trump has quite a way with the radical Left. They absolutely hate him and DOGE, and they lose it by the hour. Now they’re burning Teslas (so much for climate care), raging in hotel lobbies and on college campuses to defend Hamas supporters, and cursing up a storm at rallies.

It's not just paid activists and politicians jumping into the resistance ring; it’s leftist “faith leaders” too. Recently, nearly 100 “progressive” religious folks signed a letter demanding an unbiblical “Return to Jesus.” The Lent letter demanded that hundreds of millions of dollars of wasted taxpayer dollars continue to flow to (leftist) NGOs.

Funny. I don’t recall the Bible ever advocating that government fund the Church. I don’t recall Jesus demanding the government take care of the poor and the needy and ensure justice for those being crushed. Oh, wait, that’s because that’s the Church’s job. But a social justice worldview sees forced taxpayer funding of (leftist) faith-based organizations (despite massive taxpayer fraud and little to no accountability) as good stewardship.

Continued below.

Leftist ‘faith leaders’ twisting Bible to support wasteful gov't spending

It s not just paid activists and politicians jumping into the resistance ring; it s leftist faith leaders too

www.christianpost.com

Reads like an anti- left screed implying that any Christians leaders on the left are "faith leaders" - as in not Christian.

Not cool.

I don't know any Christian leaders burning Teslas. Do you?

Nor do I see any Christian leaders on the Left demanding the goverment fund the Church. One could argue that it is the right that wants the goverment to fund Christian schools.

The article says "I don’t recall Jesus demanding the government take care of the poor and the needy and ensure justice for those being crushed."

Well, I don't see that Jesus ever advocated for the goverment to treat others as bad as we can, such as this:

Chained for hours on a prison bus without access to food, water or a toilet. Told by guards to urinate on the floor. Held "like sardines in a jar," as many as 27 women in a small holding cell. Sleeping on a concrete floor. Getting one three-minute shower over three or four days in custody.

And there are folks on the right who identify as Christian cheering that type of treatment. That is deplorable.

There is a key verse in the OT that applies.
Mic 6:8
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God

 

[Vambram]

Paul's revelation of the mystery of the Church in no way suggests the Church didn't have pre-existence.

The logic is that since Christ is the eternal Logos, and the Church is the body of Christ, the Church is eternal. Reformed theology also has the doctrine of the pactum salutaris, or covenant of salvation, which is a similar idea. Salvation in Christ reflects who God has always been to his people.

Dispensationalist theology badly distorted how many American Christians have read the Old Testament, seeing a discontinuity between the Old and New Covenants. This is not how theologians like Luther or Calvin understood covenant theology.

We aren't going to change each other's beliefs on this topic, my brother. I shall agree to disagree with you, agreeably and respectfully. I also don't agree that there is a disconnect between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.

 

[FireDragon76]

Reads like an anti- left screed implying that any Christians leaders on the left are "faith leaders" - as in not Christian.

Not cool.

I don't know any Christian leaders burning Teslas. Do you?

Nor do I see any Christian leaders on the Left demanding the goverment fund the Church. One could argue that it is the right that wants the goverment to fund Christian schools.

The article says "I don’t recall Jesus demanding the government take care of the poor and the needy and ensure justice for those being crushed."

Well, I don't see that Jesus ever advocated for the goverment to treat others as bad as we can, such as this:

Chained for hours on a prison bus without access to food, water or a toilet. Told by guards to urinate on the floor. Held "like sardines in a jar," as many as 27 women in a small holding cell. Sleeping on a concrete floor. Getting one three-minute shower over three or four days in custody.

And there are folks who identify as Christian cheering that type of treatment. That is deplorable.

There is a key verse in the OT that applies.
Mic 6:8
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God

Most churches in the US have been influenced by some amount of political tribalism and audience capture, it's just the nature of modern cultural discourse, combined with the deep institutional ties that Christianity has in our culture. However, that doesn't mean that this effects is uniform or that it's subverted the actual religious nature of the institutions.

The only denominations that seem relatively immune are the more theologically and culturally isolated churches like the ELCA and WELS Lutherans, Dutch Reformed churches, Mennonites, etc.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Most churches in the US have been influenced by some amount of political tribalism and audience capture, it's just the nature of modern cultural discourse, combined with the deep institutional ties that Christianity has in our culture. However, that doesn't mean that this effects is uniform or that it's subverted the actual religious nature of the institutions.

The only denominations that seem relatively immune are the more theologically and culturally isolated churches like the ELCA and WELS Lutherans, Dutch Reformed churches, Mennonites, etc.

Some are more than others, but putting the quote marks around "faith leaders" when they are on the Left politically is .....inflammatory.

 

[Richard T]

We’re seeing a society become unhinged … again. Trump has quite a way with the radical Left. They absolutely hate him and DOGE, and they lose it by the hour. Now they’re burning Teslas (so much for climate care), raging in hotel lobbies and on college campuses to defend Hamas supporters, and cursing up a storm at rallies.

It's not just paid activists and politicians jumping into the resistance ring; it’s leftist “faith leaders” too. Recently, nearly 100 “progressive” religious folks signed a letter demanding an unbiblical “Return to Jesus.” The Lent letter demanded that hundreds of millions of dollars of wasted taxpayer dollars continue to flow to (leftist) NGOs.

Funny. I don’t recall the Bible ever advocating that government fund the Church. I don’t recall Jesus demanding the government take care of the poor and the needy and ensure justice for those being crushed. Oh, wait, that’s because that’s the Church’s job. But a social justice worldview sees forced taxpayer funding of (leftist) faith-based organizations (despite massive taxpayer fraud and little to no accountability) as good stewardship.

Continued below.

Leftist ‘faith leaders’ twisting Bible to support wasteful gov't spending

It s not just paid activists and politicians jumping into the resistance ring; it s leftist faith leaders too

www.christianpost.com

Do you really think that even in the USA, that the funding for the poor would be enough to go through churches? Most do not even tithe, with some estimates for church givers in the range of 17 dollars a week. Others suggest $2000 a year or so is given on average.
I think that modern times has a requirement to insure that no one starves and gets help. Why? Because we are not in an agricultural society where people can glean freely off the farmer's land. Land is quite scarce and many have no personal resources to have livestock or grow much on their own. So structurally this change requires some consideration for the poor. One could argue it is too generous but I guess I am liberal enough to not let a hospital turn away an emergency or that the poor should starve, especially seniors and children.

 

[Michie]

You’d have to inquire of Ryan Bomberger concerning his opinion piece after reading the whole thing. I post for interest.

 

[Michie]

The State will provide. The State giveth (to NGOs) and the State taketh away (from taxpayers).

The letter begins with the admonition: “Defending the vulnerable and opposing unjust decisions are faith-rooted commitments we must examine during Lent.” Who is more vulnerable than the unborn? “Faith communities can be lights shining in the darkness, and truth-tellers to power, based on our proximity and relationship to the most vulnerable children of God who we are especially called to love.” No proximity is any closer than the relationship between a mother and her unborn child. But truth-telling about the violence and exploitation of abortion doesn’t matter to these so-called “faith leaders.” Nearly every one of the signers is radically pro-abortion: Jim Wallis (Sojourners), Shane Claiborne, Bishop Claude Alexander(Evangelicals for Harris), Rev. Dr. Starsky Wilson (Children’s Defense Fund), Dr. Jacquelyn Dupont-Walker (AME Church) and so many more.

Jim Wallis

One of the signers, Jim Wallis, is the founder of the pro-abortion “faith-based” magazine Sojourners. In an article he penned about abortion he asks: “Is Common Ground on Abortion Possible?” Let’s see. Is common ground possible on slavery? Sex trafficking? Domestic violence? Clearly, abortion resides in a different moral space for liberal Evangelicals. And of course, the sole example he gives for advocating abortion’s legality is rape. Never mind those cases constitute less than 1% of all our nation’s tragic million annual abortions. Are those lives worth less? I was conceived in rapebut adopted in love. Shouldn’t Christians believe in a God who can enable triumph to rise from tragedy?

Rev. Adam Taylor

The President of Sojourners seems to have no regard for the most vulnerable human beings. In his response to the Dobbs ruling, Taylor opines: “Now is the time to rededicate ourselves to protecting the reproductive rights of all people. Everyone deserves equal access to the full range of reproductive healthcare services, including safe and legal abortion.”

Dr. Jacquelyn Dupont-Walker

A member of the Social Action Commission of the African Methodist Episcopal (AME) Church, a predominantly black denomination, Dr. Jacquelyn Dupont-Walker is also pro-abortion. The AME church repeatedly denounces “white supremacy” and racism while adamantly supporting it in the form of systemic abortion — the number one killer of black lives. When the Dobbsdecision was handed down by the Supreme Court, Dr. Dupont-Walker signed an official (and bizarre) statement from the AME, declaring: “This decision puts millions of women’s lives in danger and threatens the civil rights of all people. We will not let the retrogressive politics of one extremist political party strip away the rights for which our fore parents died.” Nobody’s parents died so that someone’s child could be killed by abortion. “We must stand together against all forms of racism, xenophobia, and white supremacist misrepresentation of biblical faith.” Every one of those words is a misrepresentation.

Shane Claiborne

I remember sitting in a meeting with a bunch of liberal Evangelicals in DC a few years ago. Claiborne was part of it. One of the most ridiculous things said during that weekend conference was that a pro-life ethic included advocating for cage-free chickens! Claiborne et al were not interested in my challenge to the group to see abortion as an injustice equivalent to slavery. Quite frankly, most of them didn’t see it as an injustice at all. Claiborne only advocates against late-term abortions (which comprise less than 4% of all abortions), explaining: “To me, the broad framework for that is for abortion to be legal and safe, and for us to work to make it rarer and rarer, and to limit abortion in the later term.”

Should slavery have been safe, legal and rarer and rarer? These “faith leaders” probably would’ve demanded so.

Leftist ‘faith leaders’ twisting Bible to support wasteful gov't spending

It s not just paid activists and politicians jumping into the resistance ring; it s leftist faith leaders too

www.christianpost.com

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Reads like an anti- left screed implying that any Christians leaders on the left are "faith leaders" - as in not Christian.

Not cool.

I don't know any Christian leaders burning Teslas. Do you?

Nor do I see any Christian leaders on the Left demanding the goverment fund the Church. One could argue that it is the right that wants the goverment to fund Christian schools.

The article says "I don’t recall Jesus demanding the government take care of the poor and the needy and ensure justice for those being crushed."

Well, I don't see that Jesus ever advocated for the goverment to treat others as bad as we can, such as this:

Chained for hours on a prison bus without access to food, water or a toilet. Told by guards to urinate on the floor. Held "like sardines in a jar," as many as 27 women in a small holding cell. Sleeping on a concrete floor. Getting one three-minute shower over three or four days in custody.

And there are folks on the right who identify as Christian cheering that type of treatment. That is deplorable.

There is a key verse in the OT that applies.
Mic 6:8
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God

Do you believe the government should take from the producers of society to give to those who are poor and needy?

 

[Vambram]

Do you really think that even in the USA, that the funding for the poor would be enough to go through churches? Most do not even tithe, with some estimates for church givers in the range of 17 dollars a week. Others suggest $2000 a year or so is given on average.
I think that modern times has a requirement to insure that no one starves and gets help. Why? Because we are not in an agricultural society where people can glean freely off the farmer's land. Land is quite scarce and many have no personal resources to have livestock or grow much on their own. So structurally this change requires some consideration for the poor. One could argue it is too generous but I guess I am liberal enough to not let a hospital turn away an emergency or that the poor should starve, especially seniors and children.

Perhaps you might be missing the point that the author of the article was trying to make.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Do you believe the government should take from the producers of society to give to those who are poor and needy?

If the poor and needy include disabled physically and mentally, or medically challenged, and in many other cases.