Left Behind a superstition? Armageddon a myth?

[SarahsKnight]

oops singles..

Forgiven, NannaNae.

 

[Rhamiel]

Hmm. Isn't the RCC officially amillenial, because it officially rejects millenarianism/chiliasm?

Anyways, I'm inclined to believe the "thousand years" in Revelation is related to the following:

For a day in Your courts is better than a thousand... -Ps 84:10

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God [the Father], and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. -John 17:3

So, I think it means something, but I wouldn't interpret it as exactly 1000 years give or take 30 minutes, but rather as a way of describing something like the depth, sheer gravity of or endlessness of eternal life that is available in this life. As for being "caught up" and "in the air" to meet Him, remember that Elijah was "caught up", Isaiah saw Him, and also some man Paul described in 2 Cor 12 was caught up to paradise. I'd suggest reading up on the beatific vision.

I do not know what Chiliasm is?

The Catholic Church does believe in Ammilinialism, that the "millinium" is from the birth of Christ until the Second Coming

 

[radhead]

we believe that God preserved the Scripture
that it was inspired by the Holy Spirit and protected from error

Why do you believe it?

Most Christians haven't even read the Bible and they believe it. You only believe it because someone told you that. You can't believe everything you read.

When I read the Bible, it has some good things in it. But it also has a lot of questionable things. There is no way that it was not invented by men. They had to put good stuff in it to make it acceptable. But it's pretty clear that the purpose was to try to control people.

Cut off your eye or hand if it makes you sin? Right. What person is caused to sin by the eye or their hand. They know that it's their mind that causes them to sin. So, should they cut off their head? Well, it says in Revelation that it is "blessed" to be beheaded.

It was a simple solution to get rid of Jewish people during the Roman-Jewish wars. Propaganda.

 

[Rhamiel]

Why do you believe it?

Most Christians haven't even read the Bible and they believe it. You only believe it because someone told you that. You can't believe everything you read.

When I read the Bible, it has some good things in it. But it also has a lot of questionable things. There is no way that it was not invented by men. They had to put good stuff in it to make it acceptable. But it's pretty clear that the purpose was to try to control people.

Cut off your eye or hand if it makes you sin? Right. What person is caused to sin by the eye or their hand. They know that it's their mind that causes them to sin. So, should they cut off their head? Well, it says in Revelation that it is "blessed" to be beheaded.

It was a simple solution to get rid of Jewish people during the Roman-Jewish wars. Propaganda.

as for the verse about "removing your hand if it causes you to sin" that was clearly hyperbole, it was part of the speaking style used by Our Lord during His earthly ministry

I believe in the Bible because the Church tells me that it is the word of God and I accept the authority of the Church

 

[SarahsKnight]

And as for me, radhead, I believe the Bible (that it's true, not necessarily that the way I or others interpret it is true) and more importantly in Jesus Christ because I want to and I feel I was led by the Holy Spirit to do so. Can I absolutely prove it 100%? No, and I don't think any human can. But it's called faith for a reason, and I want to believe.

(And for the record, I also agree with Rhamiel on the above, in that the verse was simply hyperbole; I sincerely doubt Christ wants us to dismember or mutilate ourselves.)

 

[SnowyMacie]

I guess being a conservative, American, non-denominational Christian I just don't have the same reasoning powers the rest of you do to make the text not say something it actually says.

I'm sorry for my tone. I guess I'm just frustrated with the attitude I get sometimes that being a conservative Christians means I don't know what I'm talking about. You must be liberal or become a Christian outside of America to really find the truth.

This has nothing to do with being conservative or liberal. It has nothing to do with political or religious views, I know very conservative people who reject Dispensationalism, like I said (or I think I did), I had never even heard of the rapture or tribulation until I was in junior high and my youth minister told us it was an alternative explanation and actually made jokes about it. I legitimately thought Left Behind was pure fiction, I had no idea people actually believed that that was how it was going to happen until I was a sophomore in high school.

 

[Rhamiel]

TX CO Matt, you do make some good points

Sometimes people who believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture seem to think that their view is a majority opinion.
it is a theological opinion lacking in consensus and pedigree(being only a few hundred years old)
now this does not mean it is a bad idea in and of itself, but it does raise red flags that mean we should look a bit closer at it

 

[Gnarwhal]

I do not know what Chiliasm is? The Catholic Church does believe in Ammilinialism, that the "millinium" is from the birth of Christ until the Second Coming

Chiliasm was the earliest form of millennarianism/futurism that was condemned by the early church as heresy. It stretches back to the teacher known as Cerinthus, the same man whom St. John the Apostle ran out of the Roman baths shouting "let us flee, lest the building fall down; for Cerinthus, the enemy of truth, is inside!"

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[Nanopants]

The man was imprisoned, tortured, and saw heaven itself, and he runs from a single heretic? Interesting...

 

[Saucy]

Nah I certainly don't believe it's the majority view, hence my comment. It seems I get reminded often that only American conservative evangelicals believe in the rapture. I know it's not a Catholic doctrine and a lot of people overseas don't believe it either.

 

[GQ Chris]

I no longer believe in dispensational eschatology.

 

[Gnarwhal]

The man was imprisoned, tortured, and saw heaven itself, and he runs from a single heretic? Interesting...

That's the account as given by Irenaeus, whom was told by Polycarp, the disciple of John the Apostle.

I no longer believe in dispensational eschatology.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

 

[GQ Chris]

The truth is that dispensationalism sells a lot of books, but that's about it.

 

[Saucy]

you guys keep throwing out all the large, theological words I don't know what they mean

 

[GQ Chris]

you guys keep throwing out all the large, theological words I don't know what they mean

Supralapsarian Infralapsarian, lol

 

[GQ Chris]

There is so much to know about Jesus, it is infinite and endless.

 

[Gnarwhal]

There is so much to know about Jesus, it is infinite and endless.

True.

Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written. (John‬ 21‬:25‬ NIV)

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[Nanopants]

Chiliasm was the earliest form of millennarianism/futurism that was condemned by the early church as heresy. It stretches back to the teacher known as Cerinthus, the same man whom St. John the Apostle ran out of the Roman baths shouting "let us flee, lest the building fall down; for Cerinthus, the enemy of truth, is inside!"

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

The man was imprisoned, tortured, and saw heaven itself, and he runs from a single heretic? Interesting...

That's the account as given by Irenaeus, whom was told by Polycarp, the disciple of John the Apostle.

Well, that settles it. Aside from his heresy, Cerinthus was also a militant feminist.








(I may pay for that one later, but I couldn't resist)

 

[KingCrimson250]

Supralapsarian Infralapsarian, lol

Oh man, hahaha. Most theological debates, no matter how arcane, have usually got at least some important implications that make them worth discussing. Supralapsarianism, etc, is one of the few debates where I look at it and say "Nope, this is entirely useless. Literally nothing meaningful can come from this."

And to think churches used to split over it. Then again, a few decades ago churches used to split over eschatology, whereas today 40% of a congregation walking out on a church because it's not pre-mill (or post-mill, or a-mill, or whatever) seems more like a bad joke than anything else.

 

[Rhamiel]

Nah I certainly don't believe it's the majority view, hence my comment. It seems I get reminded often that only American conservative evangelicals believe in the rapture. I know it's not a Catholic doctrine and a lot of people overseas don't believe it either.

and a large number of Main Line Protestants fall on both sides of this issue