Leaving salvation

[FreeGrace2]

But your interpretation of these verses still doesn't signify that God will force us to be saved when we explicitly don't want it.

Just consider the clear implications of what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life: they shall NEVER PERISH.

If one who has received eternal life on the basis of faith in Christ later on, through a series of events that breaks his faith, he is STILL a recipient of eternal life, no matter how hard anyone tries to twist or distort that fact. And, as Jesus said, "they (recipients of eternal life) shall never perish".

That is a fact. And a promise. By Jesus Himself.

He must not infringe on free will.

Irrelevant. The changes that occur when one believes are permanent.

There are no verses that teach the reversal of being saved, having eternal life, being born again, being regenerated, becoming a new creature.

But knowing ahead of time who will obey the call to be saved and repent of idolatry, those will be saved. But to the person with faith but faith that is alone, without repentance, this signifies apostasy.

This is nothing more than a veiled works salvation system.

Christ died for all sins, including the sin of idolatry. We are saved by faith in Christ, not changing our behaviors or lifestyles.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Don't equate our being born again first by the Holy Spirit with our being sealed after WE believe.

Our being born again is God's choice.

Please share the passage that teaches that one is born again before faith and salvation.

 

[sdowney717]

Please share the passage that teaches that one is born again before faith and salvation.

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

The word 'see' here is significant.

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)
Lexicon :: Strong's G1492 - eidō
So there is no faith, no salvation possible until you are born again, that must come first.

1. to see
   1. to perceive with the eyes
      
      
   2. to perceive by any of the senses
      
      
   3. to perceive, notice, discern, discover
      
      
   4. to see
      1. i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything
         
         
      2. to pay attention, observe
         
         
      3. to see about something
         1. i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it
      4. to inspect, examine
         
         
      5. to look at, behold
   5. to experience any state or condition
      
      
   6. to see i.e. have an interview with, to visit
2. to know
   1. to know of anything
      
      
   2. to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive
      1. of any fact
         
         
      2. the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning
         
         
      3. to know how, to be skilled in
   3. to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to (1Th. 5:12)
      

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Please share the passage that teaches that one is born again before faith and salvation."

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

The word 'see' here is significant.

Every word is significant.

Lexicon :: Strong's G1492 - eidō
So there is no faith, no salvation possible until you are born again, that must come first.

1. to see
   1. to perceive with the eyes
      
   2. to perceive by any of the senses
      
   3. to perceive, notice, discern, discover
      
   4. to see
      1. i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything
         
      2. to pay attention, observe
         
      3. to see about something
         1. i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it
      4. to inspect, examine
         
      5. to look at, behold
   5. to experience any state or condition
      
   6. to see i.e. have an interview with, to visit
2. to know
   1. to know of anything
      
   2. to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive
      1. of any fact
         
      2. the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning
         
      3. to know how, to be skilled in
   3. to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to (1Th. 5:12)

All that to just miss the whole point.

It's interesting that John 3:5 was not included, which gives clear meaning to the word "see" in v.3. Which will be rather inconvenient to your line of thinking.

So, let's put it all together, for, you know; context:

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

It should be clear that the red phrases in v.3 and v.5 are equivalent. Therefore, to "see the kingdom" is to "enter the kingdom". Jesus clearly equated seeing with entering.

iow, one cannot enter the kingdom UNTIL one is born again. That is true. But there is nothing here about being born again before one believes. That idea is contrived.

All of the provided lexicon usages fit for "seeing" to equate to "entering".

iow, by entering the kingdom, one WILL -

• to see
  1. to perceive with the eyes
     
  2. to perceive by any of the senses
     
  3. to perceive, notice, discern, discover
     
  4. to see
     1. i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything
        
     2. to pay attention, observe
        
     3. to see about something
        1. i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it
     4. to inspect, examine
        
     5. to look at, behold
  5. to experience any state or condition
     
  6. to see i.e. have an interview with, to visit

• to know

1. to know of anything
   
2. to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive
   1. of any fact
      
   2. the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning
      
   3. to know how, to be skilled in
3. to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to (1Th. 5:12)

So, again, where does the Bible in clear words tell us that one is born again before they can believe, or believe they will believe?

John 3:3 fails on that idea.

 

[Aseyesee]

There is a difference between seeing, and entering into what you see ...

 

[FreeGrace2]

There is a difference between seeing, and entering into what you see ...

John 3 -
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of Godunless they are born of water and the Spirit.

In this passage, Jesus was equating seeing with entering.

iow, unless one enter the kingdom, they cannot see it.

Kinda like a building. Unless one enters it, they can't see the insides of the building.

There is nothing deep here.

As, as to the claim that one must be born again in order to believe, consider Eph 2:5 -
"made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved."

The first phrase, "made us alive with Christ" is further clarified by the last phrase "by grace you have been saved".

So, iow, to be "made alive" is to "be saved". They are equivalent.

Further, you can't have one without the other.

Now, let's consider Eph 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

What is clear here is that one is saved through faith.

So, iow, the faith must precede salvation. Otherwise, it can't be "through faith".

If the faith isn't there, there is no salvation.

So Paul clarified the order: faith, then salvation.

The same order is seen regarding possessing eternal life.
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

iow, when one believes, they possess eternal life.

Also, 1 Tim 1:16 - But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

 

[sdowney717]

Agree, see and enter are two different words and have different definitions.
You can not see and you also can not enter without first being born of God.
See
Genesis 1:1 (KJV)
Enter
Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

But of course feel free to make up whatever definition you wish, but your going to look like a fool doing that.

 

[createdtoworship]

Just consider the clear implications of what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life: they shall NEVER PERISH.

If one who has received eternal life on the basis of faith in Christ later on, through a series of events that breaks his faith, he is STILL a recipient of eternal life, no matter how hard anyone tries to twist or distort that fact. And, as Jesus said, "they (recipients of eternal life) shall never perish".

That is a fact. And a promise. By Jesus Himself.


Irrelevant. The changes that occur when one believes are permanent.

There are no verses that teach the reversal of being saved, having eternal life, being born again, being regenerated, becoming a new creature.


This is nothing more than a veiled works salvation system.

Christ died for all sins, including the sin of idolatry. We are saved by faith in Christ, not changing our behaviors or lifestyles.

Infringing on free will is extremely relevant.

 

[createdtoworship]

John 3 -
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of Godunless they are born of water and the Spirit.

In this passage, Jesus was equating seeing with entering.

iow, unless one enter the kingdom, they cannot see it.

Kinda like a building. Unless one enters it, they can't see the insides of the building.

There is nothing deep here.

As, as to the claim that one must be born again in order to believe, consider Eph 2:5 -
"made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved."

The first phrase, "made us alive with Christ" is further clarified by the last phrase "by grace you have been saved".

So, iow, to be "made alive" is to "be saved". They are equivalent.

Further, you can't have one without the other.

Now, let's consider Eph 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

What is clear here is that one is saved through faith.

So, iow, the faith must precede salvation. Otherwise, it can't be "through faith".

If the faith isn't there, there is no salvation.

So Paul clarified the order: faith, then salvation.

The same order is seen regarding possessing eternal life.
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

iow, when one believes, they possess eternal life.

Also, 1 Tim 1:16 - But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

What about the hundred verses or so that mention. You must repent to be saved. What happens.to those who believe but don't repent . Is their faith sufficient to save?

 

[Aseyesee]

John 3 -
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of Godunless they are born of water and the Spirit.

In this passage, Jesus was equating seeing with entering.

iow, unless one enter the kingdom, they cannot see it.

Kinda like a building. Unless one enters it, they can't see the insides of the building.

There is nothing deep here.

As, as to the claim that one must be born again in order to believe, consider Eph 2:5 -
"made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved."

The first phrase, "made us alive with Christ" is further clarified by the last phrase "by grace you have been saved".

So, iow, to be "made alive" is to "be saved". They are equivalent.

Further, you can't have one without the other.

Now, let's consider Eph 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

What is clear here is that one is saved through faith.

So, iow, the faith must precede salvation. Otherwise, it can't be "through faith".

If the faith isn't there, there is no salvation.

So Paul clarified the order: faith, then salvation.

The same order is seen regarding possessing eternal life.
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

iow, when one believes, they possess eternal life.

Also, 1 Tim 1:16 - But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

Seeing is as different from entering as the manna of the witldreness is to the fruit of the land, even though they be the same one truth.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Agree, see and enter are two different words and have different definitions.
You can not see and you also can not enter without first being born of God.

What is clear is that those who have entered the kingdom can see it.

Another way to express it is: one cannot see into the kingdom until one is in the kingdom, or has entered into the kingdom.

See
Genesis 1:1 (KJV)
Enter
Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

But of course feel free to make up whatever definition you wish, but your going to look like a fool doing that.

Real curious how Gen 1:1 relates to this discussion.

 

[sdowney717]

What is clear is that those who have entered the kingdom can see it.

Another way to express it is: one cannot see into the kingdom until one is in the kingdom, or has entered into the kingdom.


Real curious how Gen 1:1 relates to this discussion.

It doesn't , for some reason when I link to blueletter bible, it shows up like that.

 

[sdowney717]

You clearly cannot perceive the kingdom of God at all, not even a little bit, without being born again. You will have no clue who Jesus is, actually God come in the flesh, within your heart, so you won't be a believer.

Intellectually you might parrot what Jesus says back to others, but it is the heart that must believe unto righteousness, then the mouth speaks from the heart for it to be a genuine conversion, truly born again of God. Man's heart is wicked from his youth, and wicked evil hearts have no love for Christ.
Do not be surprised if the world hates you because it hated Christ first.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

For the ones who don't repent -- I seriously doubt that they were ever saved. As for me -- repent should be my middle name.

Important to finish the (Good Race).
I see many who fall away.
Some were even bible teachers.
But, I do have to wonder
were they every really saved?

For Jesus did say that he would not lose one that the father had given him.

What do I really deserve?
Short trip to a very hot place.
Makes me very grateful.
For I know who I'm!

Not one is good.
I trust in Jesus.

Keeping it very simple.

Grace Alone
Faith Alone
Christ Alone

M-Bob

 

[Aseyesee]

Another way to express it is: one cannot see into the kingdom until one is in the kingdom, or has entered into the kingdom.

This is expressed by Jesus in myriads of ways, which one view is incomplete unless viewed with what all the others define it as.

 

[createdtoworship]

For the ones who don't repent -- I seriously doubt that they were ever saved. As for me -- repent should be my middle name.

Important to finish the (Good Race).
I see many who fall away.
Some were even bible teachers.
But, I do have to wonder
were they every really saved?

For Jesus did say that he would not lose one that the father had given him.

What do I really deserve?
Short trip to a very hot place.
Makes me very grateful.
For I know who I'm!

Not one is good.
I trust in Jesus.

Keeping it very simple.

Grace Alone
Faith Alone
Christ Alone

M-Bob

Hebrews 6 mentions leaving salvation, see op. Good post

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Hebrews 6 mentions leaving salvation, see op.

Very interesting -- thanks.
Got some food for thought here.

Verse 4
"tasted the heavenly gift"
(does not say received)
that would be more convincing for me

"made partakers of the Holy Spirit"
very interesting for I never knew that
one could get so very close
And yet fall away

I will be doing some homework thank you

M-Bob

 

[createdtoworship]

Very interesting -- thanks.
Got some food for thought here.

Verse 4
"tasted the heavenly gift"
(does not say received)
that would be more convincing for me

"made partakers of the Holy Spirit"
very interesting for I never knew that
one could get so very close
And yet fall away

I will be doing some homework thank you

M-Bob

all adressed in the op, thanks for the comment.


What? Yes both methods are true. You can leave salvation as found in Hebrews 6 and 10. We see that they tasted of the heavenly gift, just as Christ tasted death for every man.

the same word in hebrews six 'tasted' is used a few chapters earlier 'tasted death for every man' referring to Christ. Now we know that He didn't just sip of death, but he drunk fully of death, fully dying. And the same is with hebrews six, they fully drank of salvation, being saved.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You clearly cannot perceive the kingdom of God at all, not even a little bit, without being born again.

iow, one has to be IN the kingdom in order to see it. Sure.

You will have no clue who Jesus is, actually God come in the flesh, within your heart, so you won't be a believer.

Opinion.

Intellectually you might parrot what Jesus says back to others, but it is the heart that must believe unto righteousness, then the mouth speaks from the heart for it to be a genuine conversion, truly born again of God. Man's heart is wicked from his youth, and wicked evil hearts have no love for Christ.
Do not be surprised if the world hates you because it hated Christ first.

None of this supports the claim that one must be born again in order to believe.

The Bible equates being born again as being saved. From Eph 2:5 and 8

These 2 verses show the order; faith then regeneration.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hebrews 6 mentions leaving salvation

Actually, it doesn't. It mentions falling away. Why should one assume that refers to salvation?

If that were possible, just consider what Jesus said to those He gives eternal life: they shall never perish. John 10:28

If one could fall away from salvation, then was Jesus lying, or just kidding? Which?

It's very important to consider ALL the ramifications of a view before adopting it.