Leaving salvation

[createdtoworship]

First of all this topic is the hardest topic in the Bible to understand. It's meat and not milk of scripture. Some backround: after biblecollege, I taught evangelism at a non denominational church of a few thousand for about 5 years. In the process I started feeling my soteriology change. It changed as i talked to people who felt they were not good enough for heaven, or to be christian. I became what is called free grace. Later on, years later, I was praying and God showed me dozens of verses of people being required to repent to be saved. What does this mean, if one does not repent can they lose salvation? I was a lordship salvationist with a twist of arminianism. So later I wrote a lordship journal of salvation soteriology, before I was writing a free grace journal called...soteriological journal. Regardless. I found out that both methods are true. What? Yes both methods are true. You can leave salvation as found in Hebrews 6 and 10. We see that they tasted of the heavenly gift, just as Christ tasted death for every man. So if we sin we are not saved, but condemned? No, not exactly. Sin in most cases means practicing sin. For example being proud of your sin, coming out of the closet and boasting about your sin. Makes one unsaved. How do I reconcile? Well if you are living in constant sin, and you no longer wish to be saved. Then you are not. But if you have the desire to be saved, and to do what is right, just that you are stuggling with addiction for example....you can still be saved by grace. But to the person sleeping around, and justifies it with verses like...."all things are lawful." and "I am saved by grace man." This person is in dangerous waters. you cannot lose salvation, like you lost your keys, but years and years of drifting, and doubting and sinning blatantly and proudly causes one to leave the salvation they once had. Many many verses on this. So can we be secure in my salvation? Yes! I am secure, but you may not be. I am secure because I want to be saved. and I desire to be like my saviour. It is this type of person that is elect before the foundation of the world, that cannot lose salvation. Sin causes doubt, doubt causes drifting, drifting causes dullness, and all the above causes apostacy. All principle things found in hebrews. To the religionist who loves the swishing of robes and incense and the prayers for the dead, and the sacraments. Those too are saved by law. But there is no salvation by laws. Only by faith alone. It's not how much we do. But how much was done for us. Faith without works however are dead. it's not faith AND works, or faith PLUS works that saves, it's faith THAT works.

-amen.

All this can be found perhaps in a better light here:

Pastor Jon Courson Bible Teachings - Play Teaching

 

[Ron Gurley]

(Saving) FAITH without (spiritually guided and following good ) WORKS is DEAD (judged spiritually useless)
...a paraphrase of James

James 2:22(NASB)
22 You see that FAITH was working with his (Abraham's) WORKS, and
as a result of the works, faith was perfected;(matured)

It is impossible for a true believer to: "Leave/Lose his salvation" aka spiritual POSITION in the Body of Christ.

 

[TheSeabass]

This person is in dangerous waters. you cannot lose salvation, like you lost your keys, but years and years of drifting, and doubting and sinning blatantly and proudly causes one to leave the salvation they once had. Many many verses on this. So can we be secure in my salvation? Yes! I am secure, but you may not be. I am secure because I want to be saved. and I desire to be like my saviour. It is this type of person that is elect before the foundation of the world, that cannot lose salvation. Sin causes doubt, doubt causes drifting, drifting causes dullness, and all the above causes apostacy. All principle things found in hebrews. To the religionist who loves the swishing of robes and incense and the prayers for the dead, and the sacraments. Those too are saved by law.

The Christian can be secure about his salvation by being faithful unto death (Revelation 2:10). The Christian has not been given UNconditional security about his salvation whereby he can be saved no matter what he does.

 

[createdtoworship]

(Saving) FAITH without (spiritually guided and following good ) WORKS is DEAD (judged spiritually useless)
...a paraphrase of James

James 2:22(NASB)
22 You see that FAITH was working with his (Abraham's) WORKS, and
as a result of the works, faith was perfected;(matured)

It is impossible for a true believer to: "Leave/Lose his salvation" aka spiritual POSITION in the Body of Christ.

you cannot lose salvation, but you can leave salvation, where you don't want it anymore via the deception of sin. I recommend at least listening to the audio in the op.

 

[shakewell]

you cannot lose salvation, but you can leave salvation, where you don't want it anymore via the deception of sin.

Only if you're stronger than God.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one.

If you're a born again new creature in Christ, you can no more get yourself un-born again than you can get yourself un-born from Adam's lineage. Once a human always a human. Once a new creature always a new creature.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 

[bling]

you cannot lose salvation, but you can leave salvation, where you don't want it anymore via the deception of sin. I recommend at least listening to the audio in the op.

I like to use

1. 
   Gal. 6: 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.
   

Paul explains plainly that eternal life is the harvest in the future we do not want to “give up”, but that also teaches we can give it up.

Our doing good stuff while here on earth (or better: our allowing God to work through us doing good stuff) is not to “earn”, “payback” or to allow us to “hold on to our salvation”. We want to continue to utilize Godly type Love and not get caught up in carnal type love so the huge Love Feast of Heaven (unselfish type Love only) still has value to us and not something we would sell on the cheap.

As far as being saved by faith only without “works”, that is true, but just like the Prodigal son wimped out of taking the punishment he fully deserved and humbly returned to the Father, we must wimp out, give up surrender to our enemy God and that will allow God to shower us with His charity.

1. Eternal Life in heaven is spoken of as our inheritance and not something we actually have at the moment. All other Gifts of God we have right away, but heaven is truly ours as a birthright (our inheritance).
   
   
   
   Part of the meaning to the concept of being given a gift is the fact that the ownership of the gift actually transfers to the receiver of the gift and as such the receiver of the gift can do what he/she wants to do with the gift.
   
   
   
   The Hebrew writer in Heb. 12:16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.
   
   Esau own the “gift” of the first born inheritance rights, which could not be taken from him by anyone, nor could someone steal it from his hand, not even his father could take them back, but Esau could sell it or give it away.
   
   
   The Hebrew writer is telling us not to give away or sell our birth right (as born again Christians) which is our inheritance of eternal life.
   
   
   
   We own a paid up tax free deed to a home in heaven, so that home was gifted to us, but the Hebrew writer is saying we could sell (or give it away) like Esau did.
   

 

[createdtoworship]

Only if you're stronger than God.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one.

If you're a born again new creature in Christ, you can no more get yourself un-born again than you can get yourself un-born from Adam's lineage. Once a human always a human. Once a new creature always a new creature.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

God choses not to want us, if we don't want him. He knows it all ahead of time. Foreknowledge

 

[createdtoworship]

so essentially some of you are saying God forces salvation on us, even if we don't want it , via sovereignty.

 

[Shempster]

I am sure a big part of salvation is about the here and now, not just floating to heaven when we die.
Thinking, acting and speaking in the character of Jesus "saves" us from many sorrows here and now.
If we don't lust, we control our desires.
If we don't have agendas with others we will not become angry.
If we speak kindly and gently, we won't have fights with others.
If we forgive all wrongs, we won't become bitter.
If we do not worry about the future, we will dispel fear and anxiety.
If we do not dwell on the past we will not become depressed.
If we love and respect our enemies, suddenly we won't have enemies any longer.
If we share all we have, we won't be greedy.
If we see others as better than ourselves, it will force the old man and the ego into submission.

 

[sdowney717]

We have eternal life when we believe, we pass from death to life.
John 5
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

We also more formally receive it as our inheritance, sort of like a graduation ceremony later on at the judgement seat, in the presence of ALL, all the angels, God, all the wicked, recall the parable of the sheep and goats when the Son of Man comes to sit on His glorious throne with all the heavenly host and all are brought to Him, the wicked and the righteous.

Paul also say we are sealed after believing.
Ephesians 1
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

This below here is the redemption of the purchased possession.
Matthew 25:31-35New King James Version (NKJV)

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;

 

[Soyeong]

First of all this topic is the hardest topic in the Bible to understand. It's meat and not milk of scripture. Some backround: after biblecollege, I taught evangelism at a non denominational church of a few thousand for about 5 years. In the process I started feeling my soteriology change. It changed as i talked to people who felt they were not good enough for heaven, or to be christian. I became what is called free grace. Later on, years later, I was praying and God showed me dozens of verses of people being required to repent to be saved. What does this mean, if one does not repent can they lose salvation? I was a lordship salvationist with a twist of arminianism. So later I wrote a lordship journal of salvation soteriology, before I was writing a free grace journal called...soteriological journal. Regardless. I found out that both methods are true. What? Yes both methods are true. You can leave salvation as found in Hebrews 6 and 10. We see that they tasted of the heavenly gift, just as Christ tasted death for every man. So if we sin we are not saved, but condemned? No, not exactly. Sin in most cases means practicing sin. For example being proud of your sin, coming out of the closet and boasting about your sin. Makes one unsaved. How do I reconcile? Well if you are living in constant sin, and you no longer wish to be saved. Then you are not. But if you have the desire to be saved, and to do what is right, just that you are stuggling with addiction for example....you can still be saved by grace. But to the person sleeping around, and justifies it with verses like...."all things are lawful." and "I am saved by grace man." This person is in dangerous waters. you cannot lose salvation, like you lost your keys, but years and years of drifting, and doubting and sinning blatantly and proudly causes one to leave the salvation they once had. Many many verses on this. So can we be secure in my salvation? Yes! I am secure, but you may not be. I am secure because I want to be saved. and I desire to be like my saviour. It is this type of person that is elect before the foundation of the world, that cannot lose salvation. Sin causes doubt, doubt causes drifting, drifting causes dullness, and all the above causes apostacy. All principle things found in hebrews. To the religionist who loves the swishing of robes and incense and the prayers for the dead, and the sacraments. Those too are saved by law. But there is no salvation by laws. Only by faith alone. It's not how much we do. But how much was done for us. Faith without works however are dead. it's not faith AND works, or faith PLUS works that saves, it's faith THAT works.

-amen.

All this can be found perhaps in a better light here:

Pastor Jon Courson Bible Teachings - Play Teaching

Our salvation is from sin, so it necessarily involves being made to stop sinning. According to Titus 2:11-14, our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what us ungodly and sinful, so being made into someone who does good works is what our salvation from doing sinful works looks like. David asked God to show His grace to him by teaching him to obey His Law (Psalms 119:29). So grace is a free gift, but it is a gift that involves being trained by God for the rest of our lives in how to rightly live. It's a bit like someone paying off your insurmountable student loans and then paying for a lifetime enrollment at a prestigious college as a free gift. According to Jude 1:4, those who are ungodly pervert God's grace into a license for sin, so we must continue to repent. There is no salvation by God's Law precisely because God's Law was never given as a means of providing salvation in the first place. Rather, the one and only way that there has have been to become justified is by grace through faith, by the same grace through the same faith we are required to be careful to live in obedience to all of God's commands.

 

[createdtoworship]

I am sure a big part of salvation is about the here and now, not just floating to heaven when we die.
Thinking, acting and speaking in the character of Jesus "saves" us from many sorrows here and now.
If we don't lust, we control our desires.
If we don't have agendas with others we will not become angry.
If we speak kindly and gently, we won't have fights with others.
If we forgive all wrongs, we won't become bitter.
If we do not worry about the future, we will dispel fear and anxiety.
If we do not dwell on the past we will not become depressed.
If we love and respect our enemies, suddenly we won't have enemies any longer.
If we share all we have, we won't be greedy.
If we see others as better than ourselves, it will force the old man and the ego into submission.

The person who lives in continual and practice of sin, has no hope.of.heaven. that is the real point. All though you have a good.point.

 

[shakewell]

God choses not to want us, if we don't want him.

A trip to the woodshed will clear that right up.

Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

You're either a bastard or a son. All sons get spanked. All spanked sons go from "not wanting God" to being a partaker of His holiness. And there are plenty more spankings where the first one came from, when they're needed.

If you're an unchastised bastard, it's because you were never born again in the first place; you're not even in the family.

 

[createdtoworship]

A trip to the woodshed will clear that right up.

Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

You're either a bastard or a son. All sons get spanked. All spanked sons go from "not wanting God" to being a partaker of His holiness. And there are plenty more spankings where the first one came from, when they're needed.

If you're an unchastised bastard, it's because you were never born again in the first place; you're not even in the family.

But your interpretation of these verses still doesn't signify that God will force us to be saved when we explicitly don't want it. He must not infringe on free will. But knowing ahead of time who will obey the call to be saved and repent of idolatry, those will be saved. But to the person with faith but faith that is alone, without repentance, this signifies apostasy.

 

[sdowney717]

But your interpretation of these verses still doesn't signify that God will force us to be saved when we explicitly don't want it. He must not infringe on free will. But knowing ahead of time who will obey the call to be saved and repent of idolatry, those will be saved. But to the person with faith but faith that is alone, without repentance, this signifies apostasy.

Bible clearly says there are NONE who seek God, all have turned away.

God seeks those who will worship Him in SPIRIT and TRUTH.
Calvinism teaches a man is born again regenerated, then they seek God.
God seeks the lost sheep of Christ to worship Him who are His elect with their names written in the Lamb's book of life from before the foundation of this world. And God wrote down their names.

But no one seeks for God if they are just natural man born according to the flesh only.
Those who are in the flesh have carnal minds at ENMITY with God. And those in the flesh can not please God.

But so many people say the opposite of what God says, do you understand these things?

 

[createdtoworship]

Bible clearly says there are NONE who seek God, all have turned away.

God seeks those who will worship Him in SPIRIT and TRUTH.
Calvinism teaches a man is born again regenerated, then they seek God.
God seeks the lost sheep of Christ to worship Him who are His elect with their names written in the Lamb's book of life from before the foundation of this world. And God wrote down their names.

But no one seeks for God if they are just natural man born according to the flesh only.
Those who are in the flesh have carnal minds at ENMITY with God. And those in the flesh can not please God.

But so many people say the opposite of what God says, do you understand these things?

So if we are totally depraved, then why doesn't God say the sinners prayer Himself. Why are we forced to do it?

 

[shakewell]

But your interpretation of these verses still doesn't signify that God will force us to be saved when we explicitly don't want it. He must not infringe on free will.

I agree that God never forces an unsaved, never-been-saved person to be saved. I agree that He doesn't alter the created make-up or functioning of a person's God-given free will.

But where are you getting the idea that a saved person ever wants to not be saved anymore? I don't think such a creature exists. I understand that the saved person's unredeemed flesh doesn't want to be saved; but it never has been saved and it never will be saved.

But knowing ahead of time who will obey the call to be saved and repent of idolatry, those will be saved.

Are you saying that "repent of idolatry" is something that an unsaved person has to do in order to become saved?

But to the person with faith but faith that is alone, without repentance, this signifies apostasy.

If the object of this person's faith is "the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Savior" and what they're repenting from is "the Lord Jesus Christ as NOT their personal Savior"; then having this faith without this repentance could never happen because it's self-contradictory.

So regarding your statement I have to ask:
What is the object of the person's faith?
What are they not repenting from?
When you use the word "apostasy", what are they falling away from?

 

[sdowney717]

So if we are totally depraved, then why doesn't God say the sinners prayer Himself. Why are we forced to do it?

Don't equate our being born again first by the Holy Spirit with our being sealed after WE believe.

Our being born again is God's choice.
Our believing is our choice after the Holy Spirit teaches us.
Those who are drawn are born of the Spirit and learn from God.
Thing is no one seeks for God.
Jesus said scripture cannot be broken.
Jesus says the Holy Spirit chooses whom He will make born of the Spirit.
People do not seek to be born again.
Only after being born of the Spirit will you be taught by the Holy Spirit and come to Christ.
You can not see - perceive anything about the kingdom of God, you are blinded in your mind unless the Holy Spirit makes you born of the Spirit.

John 3

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

 

[sdowney717]

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)
Lexicon :: Strong's G1492 - eidō
The word 'see' in John 3:3
Shows no one can know Christ or ANY truth about God or spiritual truth unless they are born again first.
So born again first, believing is second.
This also shows God's election as described in Ephesians 1 since you must be born again and that is not your choice.

1. to see
   1. to perceive with the eyes
      
      
   2. to perceive by any of the senses
      
      
   3. to perceive, notice, discern, discover
      
      
   4. to see
      1. i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything
         
         
      2. to pay attention, observe
         
         
      3. to see about something
         1. i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it
      4. to inspect, examine
         
         
      5. to look at, behold
   5. to experience any state or condition
      
      
   6. to see i.e. have an interview with, to visit
2. to know
   1. to know of anything
      
      
   2. to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive
      1. of any fact
         
         
      2. the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning
         
         
      3. to know how, to be skilled in
   3. to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to (1Th. 5:12)
      

 

[Aseyesee]

One's view of salvation changes with the growing into him.