Leaving ELCA

[Tangible]

You're Bible is missing the 11th commandment too? Thou Shalt Not Abort?

Nope. The fifth commandment covers that one just fine.

The Fifth Commandment.​

Thou shalt not kill.​

What does this mean?
We should fear and love God that we may not hurt nor harm our neighbor in his body, but help and befriend him in every bodily need [in every need and danger of life and body].

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I have a hard time believing that a God who knit me in the womb would have no issue with my mother then killing me in the womb.

It saddens me that people would try to stretch out God's word so much just to allow for the ruthless killing of unwanted babies.

But again, this all goes back to the ELCA throwing out portions of the bible she disagrees with. Must be an easy religion when all you have to do is ignore the parts you don't like.

It's a good thing Jesus didn't ignore his calling.

 

[DaRev]

At 6 weeks the arms and legs are still just "buds". Fetal development: The first trimester - MayoClinic.com

By 8 weeks the fingers are starting to form, but it is almost impossible to see on an ultrasound What your baby looks like -- 8 Weeks | BabyCenter. At 8 weeks the lower torso hasn't straighten yet and the head is still misshapen, so it still looks likes largely the same as a chicken embryo at the same stage.

What are the basic Christian teachings on this subject? I don't see much of anything in the Bible that clearly addresses this issue.

The majority of Protestants are pro-choice, as are 70% of Republicans. The majority of "main line" Protestant churches are pro-choice and the only countries I know of that have ever banned abortion are Catholic, not Protestant. So it hardly seems like a clear cut issue to me. Most Protestants disagree with you on this subject. This is not because the Bible has a clear message on the issue, it has a very ambiguous message.

The word nephesh is translated two thirds of the time as soul, one third of the time as spirit, and then there are 40 or 50 of the 750 occurances that are translated as everything from perfume to dead body. In Genesis even fish are said to have nephesh. Nephesh is not much like the clear cut distinction between soul and spirit that is put forward in the New Testament. Once the line between soul and spirit is blurred, I think it is easy to blurr the line between body and spirit, which I think is the crux of the problem here.

Biblical, and thus Christian, teaching on the subject is that human beings are created unique by God, in His image. When a human male and a human female come together to conceive, it is a human being that is conceived, not a chicken or some other creature. The Bible teaches that it is God who forms us in the womb. We are the product of His hands from the very beginning.

And as far as word usage, the definition of any word depends upon the context in which it is used. A single word can have many different meanings. Context determines what meaning fits.

 

[Tangible]

The majority of Protestants are pro-choice, as are 70% of Republicans.

I'm gonna call male bovine fecal matter on this one. Please post your sources.

More Americans “Pro-Life” Than “Pro-Choice” for First Time

 

[DaRev]

You're Bible is missing the 11th commandment too? Thou Shalt Not Abort?

That would be the 5th Commandment: Thou shall not murder.

Or is the 12th...with the 11th being Thou Shalt Not Be Gay...

That would be the 6th Commandment: Thou shall not committ adultery.

Really, the Bible never mentions abortion and does not deal with the question of when life begins. Genesis 2:7 (God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living being") refers to the specific, unique event of the creation of Adam out of the earth. It says nothing about the process of conception, pregnancy, and birth.

The very nature of Creation (which you probably don't believe in anyway) states that humans are a unique creation of God. God's call to Jeremiah reminds us that it is God who forms us in the womb, and He even knows us before that (Jeremiah 1:5). Thus, to God anyway, life begins at the least the moment of conception, according to the Bible.

The Book of Exodus clearly indicates that the fetus does not have the same legal status as a person (Chapter 21:22-23).

That passage doesn't support your claim. What it literally states is that if a pregnant woman is injured which then causes her to give birth, but no further harm is done then the penalty is whatever the husband imposes. But if there is further injury, then the accused is to be sentenced to death. The passage makes no distinction between the injury or death of either the woman or the child. Some English translation mistakenly interpret the passage to be referring to miscarriage, but it is literally referring to premature birth.

 

[AngelusSax]

That passage doesn't support your claim. What it literally states is that if a pregnant woman is injured which then causes her to give birth, but no further harm is done then the penalty is whatever the husband imposes. But if there is further injury, then the accused is to be sentenced to death. The passage makes no distinction between the injury or death of either the woman or the child. Some English translation mistakenly interpret the passage to be referring to miscarriage, but it is literally referring to premature birth.

Thank you for that. I have often wondered about that, and assumed as much as you have said here, but it is good to hear confirmation (and good for us to agree on something... the 2nd Coming can't be far off now, lol!)

 

[Protoevangel]

That would be the 5th Commandment: Thou shall not murder.

This is indeed how this commandment has been understood by Christians since the very beginning. This is evidenced by the Didiche, when it says, "You shall not kill a child by abortion nor slay it when born." This is also echoed by Barnabas, word for word in his epistle. Not Scripture, of course, but early evidence that this was indeed the Christian teaching.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Thank you for that. I have often wondered about that, and assumed as much as you have said here, but it is good to hear confirmation (and good for us to agree on something... the 2nd Coming can't be far off now, lol!)

Hey, we look for unity wherever we can!!

Look, that's three of us from different synods agreeing on something.

And Hell isn't even frozen today!!

Weather for Hell, MI
Tue

49°F | 40°F
​

50°F | °C
Current: Partly Cloudy
Wind: E at 13 mph
Humidity: 35%

​

 

[LutheranChick]

Hey, we look for unity wherever we can!!

Look, that's three of us from different synods agreeing on something.

And Hell isn't even frozen today!!

Weather for Hell, MI
Tue

49°F | 40°F

​

50°F | °C
Current: Partly Cloudy
Wind: E at 13 mph
Humidity: 35%



​

And I just looked out my window and a pig flew by!

 

[Tangible]

And I just looked out my window and a pig flew by!

I was wondering about all these people lately who've been claiming that swine flew!

 

[PreachersWife2004]

as drawn by my husband when we went through our first bout with swine flu:

​

 

[Edial]

Prayers that you go wherever God leads you, Ed.

Thanks. For the 2nd week now I am going to the AALC church (filo's synod).
VERY nice.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Edial]

Fetus has no soul?

Never heard that before.

This is what I understand:
Fetus is alive.

Alive means presence of oxygen.

Fetus lives off mother's blood (oxygen).

When God breathed in Adam (oxygen), Adam became a living soul.

(NIV) Gen.2:7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. (Hebrew for 'being" is nephesh - soul)

Am I missing something here?

Thanks,
Ed

 

[DaRev]

Fetus has no soul?

Never heard that before.

This is what I understand:
Fetus is alive.

Alive means presence of oxygen.

Fetus lives off mother's blood (oxygen).

When God breathed in Adam (oxygen), Adam became a living soul.

(NIV) Gen.2:7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. (Hebrew for 'being" is nephesh - soul)

Am I missing something here?

Thanks,
Ed

Hammer, meet Nail.

 

[AngelusSax]

Hammer, meet Nail.

And then hit it. A lot.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

And then hit it. A lot.

and hit it hard.

(but try to avoid the thumb)

 

[lux et lex]

Well I'm not sure how something is alive that can't be transfered to another person for care...just my opinion...

 

[Tangible]

Well, it isn't dead is it?

 

[AngelusSax]

To me, it's as simple as this:

Life begets life. Humans beget humans. Living humans beget living humans. Just as an infant and an adult are both human in different stages, so too a fetus is a human in yet another different stage of the mystery and miracle of life.

 

[Tangible]

Just think of abortion as a severe, deadly form of age discrimination.