Leaving ELCA

[lux et lex]

I can't think of it that way because age discrimination legally only applies to people over 40.

Until we're able to transport fetus from womb to womb I'm not going to rethink my pro choice stance.

 

[Protoevangel]

I can't think of it that way because age discrimination legally only applies to people over 40.

So, apparently the poster I have quoted is incapable of understanding any concept beyond the scope of it's status in the American legal system.

I think that explains a lot.

Until we're able to transport fetus from womb to womb I'm not going to rethink my pro choice stance.

And he makes up arbitrary standards for his positions that have nothing to do with the related concepts in the American legal system.

No one can argue with that logic.

 

[DaRev]

Until we're able to transport fetus from womb to womb I'm not going to rethink my pro choice stance.

I think this has to be the most ridiculous argument for a pro-abortion stance that I have ever heard. If someone cannot be handed from one person to another, then it isn't human and it isn't even alive.

If it wasn't so sad it would be hilarious! I don't know whether to laugh hysterically or to bawl uncontrollably.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I think this has to be the most ridiculous argument for a pro-abortion stance that I have ever heard. If someone cannot be handed from one person to another, then it isn't human and it isn't even alive.

If it wasn't so sad it would be hilarious! I don't know whether to laugh hysterically or to bawl uncontrollably.

just do one until you end up doing the other.

This often happened to me after visiting my grandmother on my dad's side. She had many abortions because they couldn't afford having so many kids, and the ELCA (which I believe was ALC back then) wrote her a nice little letter telling her not to feel guilty because it was God's WILL that she abort her little babies and that their souls were in heaven because of her willingness to admit they couldn't afford children and so on and so forth.

 

[lux et lex]

So, apparently the poster I have quoted is incapable of understanding any concept beyond the scope of it's status in the American legal system.

I think that explains a lot.


And he makes up arbitrary standards for his positions that have nothing to do with the related concepts in the American legal system.

No one can argue with that logic.

Well first of all, I'm a she. Secondly, abortion is legal, hence it is appropriate to take a legal approach when looking at it, which is what I did with regard to the age discrimination argument. Thirdly, I never stated that my opinion was in line with the legal system. That's about the only thing that would make me reconsider legal abortions because the fetus would no longer be parasitic in nature (MEANING it relies completely on the woman and can rely on no one else, which makes me question it's autonomy) because it could be transfered from one person to the next. Make fun of my position all you want, I don't particularly care. I'm a liberal Christian and proud of it. I know that welcomes ridicule in TCL but so be it.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Well first of all, I'm a she. Secondly, abortion is legal, hence it is appropriate to take a legal approach when looking at it, which is what I did with regard to the age discrimination argument. Thirdly, I never stated that my opinion was in line with the legal system. That's about the only thing that would make me reconsider legal abortions because the fetus would no longer be parasitic in nature (MEANING it relies completely on the woman and can rely on no one else, which makes me question it's autonomy) because it could be transfered from one person to the next. Make fun of my position all you want, I don't particularly care. I'm a liberal Christian and proud of it. I know that welcomes ridicule in TCL but so be it.

But do you realize why it invites "ridicule"? Christians don't look at things from man's law point of view. Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's right, for one thing. You don't get ridiculed because you're "liberal", you get questioned because while you carry a Lutheran icon, your beliefs don't line up with Lutheranism.

Again, I can't comprehend a God who knit me in the womb being okay with my mother then killing me in the womb. So I can't understand those who are okay with it either.

 

[chrisnu]

This often happened to me after visiting my grandmother on my dad's side. She had many abortions because they couldn't afford having so many kids, and the ELCA (which I believe was ALC back then) wrote her a nice little letter telling her not to feel guilty because it was God's WILL that she abort her little babies and that their souls were in heaven because of her willingness to admit they couldn't afford children and so on and so forth.

What?

Could she have afforded birth control? Or condoms? Or abstinence? The last one's really cheap.

I don't mean to be harsh, but this is just...

Almost as bad as hearing an unborn child being compared to a parasite.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

What?

Could she have afforded birth control? Or condoms? Or abstinence? The last one's really cheap.

I don't mean to be harsh, but this is just...

Almost as bad as hearing an unborn child being compared to a parasite.

Imagine how my dad and his siblings felt when they found the letter.

My grandma aborted those babies because she just didn't want them. They weren't rich, but they had money. I made the mistake of getting into a debate about abortion with my grandma (long before I even knew she had them) and not long into the debate she told me to shut my little mouth because I had no idea what I was talking about, that I was a little 18 year old princess who had my life handed to me on a platter. All this because I said I believed abortion was wrong and that God didn't want us killing our unborn babies for ANY reason.

At least now I'm able to put that into context. I now know why that debate went so sour - it was her guilt. She later told my dad she felt no guilt, but he asked her if that was the case why did she ever feel it necessary to tell them? (They found the letter after she had passed away).

It was just all a mess. My grandpa was working on changing his membership from ELCA to WELS when he passed away and my uncle fought tooth and nail for ELCA to do the service and my dad finally caved for the sake of the family. We didn't need another argument on our hands, although what happened at my grandpa's funeral was a travesty too.

 

[Edial]

...
Until we're able to transport fetus from womb to womb I'm not going to rethink my pro choice stance.

Well, so we cannot transport it ... yet.

However, I am certain we would be able to do that once science develops some necessary gadgets.
Does that mean then that once fetus is transported and attached to another mom it becomes a "legitimate" person?

Same fetus, different stages of the development of science.

That little fetus is attached to his mom.
It is alive.
It is dependant on his mother for survival.
So, mother carefully nourishes the fetus.

I read someplace that when abortion tools touch the baby, it pulls back trying to avoid the tools.

... and, it's heart rate accelerates indicating fear.

That's just not right.

I don't think this is a matter of Christianity.
It is a matter of humanity.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Tangible]

Have you ever listened to what survivors of attempted abortions have to say?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPF1FhCMPuQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8B1nKGIAeg

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I love listening to Gianna. I could listen to her all day.

I find it sad that there are people who want the power of choice so badly that they resort to calling this woman a propaganda tool.

 

[lux et lex]

You don't get ridiculed because you're "liberal", you get questioned because while you carry a Lutheran icon, your beliefs don't line up with Lutheranism.

Your Lutheranism. ELCA=Pro Choice lest you forget.

 

[chrisnu]

Your Lutheranism. ELCA=Pro Choice lest you forget.

Perhaps not to the degree you may think.

Abortion - Evangelical Lutheran Church in America

We mourn the loss of life that God has created. The strong Christian presumption is to preserve and protect life. Abortion ought to be an option only of last resort. Therefore, as a church we seek to reduce the need to turn to abortion as the answer to unintended pregnancies.

Because of the Christian presumption to preserve and protect life, this church, in most circumstances, encourages women with unintended pregnancies to continue the pregnancy.

This church encourages and seeks to support adoption as a positive option to abortion.

 

[DaRev]

Your Lutheranism. ELCA=Pro Choice lest you forget.

Well, the ELCA isn't exactly Lutheran. It left the Lutheran Church decades ago.

 

[lux et lex]

Perhaps not to the degree you may think.

Abortion - Evangelical Lutheran Church in America

Some of the parts you missed...

A developing life in the womb does not have an absolute right to be born, nor does a pregnant woman have an absolute right to terminate a pregnancy. The concern for both the life of the woman and the developing life in her womb expresses a common commitment to life.

And this...which is the crux of being Pro Choice...

Because of our conviction that both the life of the woman and the life in her womb must be respected by law, this church opposes:

• the total lack of regulation of abortion;
• legislation that would outlaw abortion in all circumstances;
• laws that prevent access to information about all options available to women faced with unintended pregnancies;
• laws that deny access to safe and affordable services for morally justifiable abortions;
• mandatory or coerced abortion or sterilization;
• laws that prevent couples from practicing contraception;
• laws that are primarily intended to harass those contemplating or deciding for an abortion

What would you propose calling the ELCA if it's not Lutheran?

 

[Protoevangel]

Perhaps not to the degree you may think.

Abortion - Evangelical Lutheran Church in America

Bless you for trying to see the good even where it is obscured and almost completely absent. I do wish you were right.

 

[chrisnu]

A developing life in the womb does not have an absolute right to be born

nor does a pregnant woman have an absolute right to terminate a pregnancy.

While they may be pro-choice in the broadest and most pragmatic of terms, the ELCA is about as far away from abortion-on-demand as you can get without being pro-life. At least that's how their statement reads to me.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Some of the parts you missed...

A developing life in the womb does not have an absolute right to be born, nor does a pregnant woman have an absolute right to terminate a pregnancy. The concern for both the life of the woman and the developing life in her womb expresses a common commitment to life.

That is ludicrous. By this logic, Mary could've aborted Jesus and God would've been okay with that.

And this...which is the crux of being Pro Choice...

Because of our conviction that both the life of the woman and the life in her womb must be respected by law, this church opposes:

• the total lack of regulation of abortion;
• legislation that would outlaw abortion in all circumstances;
• laws that prevent access to information about all options available to women faced with unintended pregnancies;
• laws that deny access to safe and affordable services for morally justifiable abortions;
• mandatory or coerced abortion or sterilization;
• laws that prevent couples from practicing contraception;
• laws that are primarily intended to harass those contemplating or deciding for an abortion

Ahh, yes, good ole ELCA allowing man's law to trump God's law. God help me, the ELCA makes me throw up in my mouth a little bit.

What would you propose calling the ELCA if it's not Lutheran?

Honestly? I can't truthfully answer that without facing some disciplinary actions from my bosses.

But I can boil it down to Evangelical "Church" of American. Take Lutheran out of your name, for Heaven's sake. You don't listen to the Confessions, you throw the bible out with the aborted babies and you let people think that living in sin is perfectly okay with God.

As I pointed out here earlier, I fully believe this pretty sums up my idea of the ELCA:

There's no doubt what that means.

 

[DaRev]

While they may be pro-choice in the broadest and most pragmatic of terms, the ELCA is about as far away from abortion-on-demand as you can get without being pro-life. At least that's how their statement reads to me.

The ELCA's health insurance that is provided to their employees pays for abortion on demand. That sounds pretty pro-choice to me.

 

[Edial]

The ELCA's health insurance that is provided to their employees pays for abortion on demand. That sounds pretty pro-choice to me.

I did not know that.
If that is the case then whatever ELCA appears to teach on paper concerning abortion being 'the last resort' type of procedure contradicts to what it provides via health insurance.

Thanks for this info.