leaving AA

[Gregorikos]

Simply rubbishing a comment, just for the hell of it does nothing for your cause.

If you have a point to make then you should make it, otherwise it shows you have nothing of any substance to add so you just stoop down to the lowest common denominator and resort to false accusations.

I looked at some statistics and found that the 12 step program has a 99% fail rate. It shows that 10% of drunkards, drug addicts, gamblers etc. will attend a 12 step program at some stage in their life. Of those, only 3% will continue for a year and only 1% will stay with the program for more than a year.

That exposes the program as a spectacular failure, to me. Maybe your standards for success are much lower, I don't know.

• A New York Times article stated that AA claims that up to 75% of its members stay abstinent.8
• Alcoholics Anonymous’ Big Book touts about a 50% success rate, stating that another 25% remain sober after some relapses.9
• A study conducted by AA in 2014 showed that 27% of the more than 6,000 members who participated in the study were sober for less than a year. In addition, 24% of the participants were sober 1-5 years while 13% were sober 5-10 years. Fourteen percent of the participants were sober 10-20 years, and 22% were sober for 20 or more years.5

Source: American Addiction Centers

 

[( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)]

I don't have anything against AA. I've sat thru some of their meetings myself. But it's no place for a seasoned Christian to be. It's a great starter place for baby Christians to go and share their faith and give testimony. But any place that keeps the common denominator of the focus of their conversation on the struggle and hardships they face then you already know. As Christians, we don't have to keep that as our focal point. Our victory is in Jesus. And that's something the world doesn't understand.

 

[chilehed]

If you have a point to make then you should make it,

I already have in one of the other threads where you said the same nonsense.

I also talked about it some here.

 

[Dan1988]

• A New York Times article stated that AA claims that up to 75% of its members stay abstinent.8
• Alcoholics Anonymous’ Big Book touts about a 50% success rate, stating that another 25% remain sober after some relapses.9
• A study conducted by AA in 2014 showed that 27% of the more than 6,000 members who participated in the study were sober for less than a year. In addition, 24% of the participants were sober 1-5 years while 13% were sober 5-10 years. Fourteen percent of the participants were sober 10-20 years, and 22% were sober for 20 or more years.5

Source: American Addiction Centers

The statistics vary depending on who publishes them, those with a vested interest will always falsify the true figures to benefit themselves.
I heard old members at various meetings quote those figures I mentioned over and over. They all said that only one or two members of their group remained in the program for the long haul.

We can't afford to rely on the mainstream media, to get our facts. The truth is always censored, while lies and deception are pushed.

 

[Gregorikos]

The statistics vary depending on who publishes them, those with a vested interest will always falsify the true figures to benefit themselves.
I heard old members at various meetings quote those figures I mentioned over and over. They all said that only one or two members of their group remained in the program for the long haul.

We can't afford to rely on the mainstream media, to get our facts. The truth is always censored, while lies and deception are pushed.

Of course. But you claimed a "99% fail rate" which common sense will tell you can't be true. People and programs around the world use the 12 steps for every kind of addiction. If your statistics were true, they would all be idiots.

Perhaps the fail rate you noticed is due to the dumbing down of the 12 steps that you also complained about. It wasn't originally about a generic "higher power". You said you were in NA. The NA material is especially egregious on that particular point. I don't believe a candle or a door knob can be a "higher power". It's not. That's nonsense.

I'm in a 12 step group for sex addiction. Our higher power is Jesus Christ, and nothing else is acceptable in our group. I used to be averse to the 12 steps, but I've completely changed my mind about that after having success along with a lot of other guys who have as well, several of whom are also recovering alcoholics. It works if you do it right.

 

[chilehed]

The NA material is especially egregious on that particular point. I don't believe a candle or a door knob can be a "higher power".

I'm not aware of any NA literature that says this sort of thing. I've heard individual members say it, but only as hyperbole to illustrate the point that NA doesn't require anyone to adopt a particular religious belief in order to be a member, nor is any specific religious belief required for the program to be effective.

In fact, what NA literature actually says implies the exact opposite of this idea:

"The only suggested guidelines are that this Power be loving, caring and greater than ourselves." Basic Text, page 24.

"We sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.” Step Eleven.

"As a result, we are open to receive our Higher Power’s love and guidance directly into our lives." It Works How and Why, page 105

"In the Eleventh Step, we pray for a particular kind of power: the power to carry out God’s will." It Works How and Why, page 106
​

Door knobs and candles have no will, no consciousness, and are incapable of providing guidance or of being loving and caring.

As I've said elsewhere, a large percentage of those who ever step foot in an AA or NA meeting will not accept the invitation to become a member, will not adopt the program of recovery, and will continue in active addiction. But every single one of those who stay and adopt the program of recovery will be able to stop using, lose the desire to use, and find a new way to live. The success rate of the AA and NA programs is 100%.

If you got a prescription from the doctor, refused to take the medicine and then stayed ill, would you blame the doctor and the medicine?

 

[Gregorikos]

I'm not aware of any NA literature that says this sort of thing. I've heard individual members say it, but only as hyperbole to illustrate the point that NA doesn't require anyone to adopt a particular religious belief in order to be a member, nor is any specific religious belief required for the program to be effective.

As an example, here is an excerpt from Step Two of the NA Step Working guide.


Some of us resisted this step because we thought it required us to be religious. Nothing could be further from the truth. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, in the NA program that requires a member to be religious. The idea that "anyone may join us, regardless of... religion or lack of religion" is fiercely defended by our fellowship. Our members strive to be inclusive in this regard and do not tolerate anything that compromises the unconditional right of all addicts to develop their own individual understanding of a Power greater than themselves. This is a spiritual, not religious, program.


The beauty of the Second Step is revealed when we begin to think about what our Higher Power can be. We are encouraged to choose a Power that is loving, caring, and-most importantly - able to restore us to sanity. The Second Step does not say, "We came to believe in a Power greater than ourselves." It says, "We came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity." The emphasis is not on who or what this Power is, but on what this Power can do for us. The group itself certainly qualifies as a Power greater than ourselves. So do the spiritual principles contained in the Twelve Steps.

Clearly, in NA, the "higher power" can be the door knob if we so choose.

That being said: As far as I know, the NA Step Working Guide is the very best material available for working the steps. I use it myself, and think it's great. I just overlook their references to such a generic 'god'.

 

[chilehed]

Clearly, in NA, the "higher power" can be the door knob if we so choose.

That certainly is an easy hyperbole, if you choose to use it. But despite what you claim, it's not in any NA literature.

That being said: As far as I know, the NA Step Working Guide is the very best material available for working the steps. I use it myself, and think it's great. I just overlook their references to such a generic 'god'.

Which is exactly the point: every individual is free to relate all of those references to his own religious belief. NA isn't a religion, and the program can work for those of any religion or no religion at all. I find it baffling that the fact that it can work for anyone is used by some people as an argument against it.

 

[Gregorikos]

That certainly is an easy hyperbole, if you choose to use it. But despite what you claim, it's not in any NA literature.


Which is exactly the point: every individual is free to relate all of those references to his own religious belief. NA isn't a religion, and the program can work for those of any religion or no religion at all.

I just showed you in NA literature their belief that the "higher power" can be the group itself, or the twelve steps. If you can't gather from that example that the "higher power" of NA can be absolutely anything, I can't help you any more with that concept.

But my point here is to help Dan1988, who complained that AA did exactly that to the 12 Steps and therefore the 12 Steps don't work. Yes, AA did that. NA did that. But that doesn't mean you and I have to do that. It remains a fact that 6 of the 12 steps mention God, and that God's miraculous power and living a life close to God asa means of sobriety is the ultimate goal of the 12 steps.

And most of us here know that a person cannot get close to God except through Jesus Christ. (John 14:6)

 

[chilehed]

If you can't gather from that example that the "higher power" of NA can be absolutely anything...

Anything, that is, that posesses will and consciousness, and is capable of providing guidance and of being loving and caring... like the literature actually says.

If someone needs to call it something other than "God", that's for him and God to work out. Attending to my own recovery is quite enough work as it is without meddling in someone else's.

 

[Dan1988]

Of course. But you claimed a "99% fail rate" which common sense will tell you can't be true. People and programs around the world use the 12 steps for every kind of addiction. If your statistics were true, they would all be idiots.

Perhaps the fail rate you noticed is due to the dumbing down of the 12 steps that you also complained about. It wasn't originally about a generic "higher power". You said you were in NA. The NA material is especially egregious on that particular point. I don't believe a candle or a door knob can be a "higher power". It's not. That's nonsense.

I'm in a 12 step group for sex addiction. Our higher power is Jesus Christ, and nothing else is acceptable in our group. I used to be averse to the 12 steps, but I've completely changed my mind about that after having success along with a lot of other guys who have as well, several of whom are also recovering alcoholics. It works if you do it right.

Any program works if you work it, those who need to lose weight must eat less and stick to their program if their program is to work.

The point I was trying to make was regarding those in 12 step programs still identifying as addicts after many years of abstinence. I haven't used drugs for over 2 years, and I don't have no desire or craving to use so I don't consider myself to be an addict any longer.

I believe Christ is able to completely heal addicts from their addiction, so they don't need to identify as addicts for the rest of their life. The 12 step program has nothing to offer me, it may be useful for those who don't believe in the power of the One true God. It may help them abstain from using but it doesn't fill the void which caused them to abuse in the first place.

Only God can fulfill that emptiness, which causes people to abuse themselves in the first place. The 12 step program may assist people to abstain but it doesn't deal with the root cause and they remain miserable in their sobriety.

 

[Gregorikos]

I believe Christ is able to completely heal addicts from their addiction, so they don't need to identify as addicts for the rest of their life. The 12 step program has nothing to offer me, it may be useful for those who don't believe in the power of the One true God. It may help them abstain from using but it doesn't fill the void which caused them to abuse in the first place.

Only God can fulfill that emptiness, which causes people to abuse themselves in the first place. The 12 step program may assist people to abstain but it doesn't deal with the root cause and they remain miserable in their sobriety.

Dan, you clearly don't understand the 12 steps. At their core the steps are nothing more than Christian discipleship.

Steps 1-3 are faith and repentance toward God
Steps 4-5 are self reflection and confession
Steps 6-7 are repentance and sanctification
Steps 8-9 are reconciliation and restitution
Step 10 is continued diligence in self reflection
Step 11 is seeking a personal relationship with the Lord
Step 12 is helping in the discipleship of others

If you're a Christian, you ought to be doing all these steps, whether you acknowledge them as the 12 steps or not. And the fact is, you CANNOT do them without faith in the power of God. I don't even know how you could say otherwise. And you're wrong about it not filling the void too. If practiced by a Christian, the 12 steps fill the void with God- that's the very goal of step 11.

I've believed in the power of the one true God since he miraculously healed me of an aortal septal defect when I was 10. God healed my mom of inoperable terminal breast cancer when I was 18. I was baptized in the Holy Spirit when I was 22. I've seen God do countless healings and miracles in my life. I've never ever questioned the power of God. That's why I couldn't understand why I remained in bondage on and off for 35 years.

Well... I wasn't obeying the Word, which tells me I have to walk in the light (1 John 1:7- transparency) and confess my sins to others (James 5:16) in order that I may be healed. It's right there in Scripture, and I wasn't doing it and wasn't getting better. And guess where I learned what I needed to do? The 12 Steps.

 

[chilehed]

The 12 step program may assist people to abstain but it doesn't deal with the root cause and they remain miserable in their sobriety.

Again with the ignorant nonsense.

 

[Dan1988]

Again with the ignorant nonsense.

I've seen it at every meeting, they get up and talk about their obsession like they were talking about loosing their best friend. Quite pathetic and sad really.

 

[Gregorikos]

I've seen it at every meeting, they get up and talk about their obsession like they were talking about loosing their best friend. Quite pathetic and sad really.

How many different AA groups or 12-Step groups have you attended more than twice?

 

[Dan1988]

How many different AA groups or 12-Step groups have you attended more than twice?

I attended both AA and NA meetings for over year, so I did get to hear members sharing the same old story over and over again.
I found it quite sad to hear them obsess over their past, instead of moving on and living in the present.
To identify as an alcoholic or addict after many years of abstinence, doesn't make any sense. I never discuss my past life as an addict with anyone, it's shameful thing that should be left in the past. I don't see how obsessing over the past can benefit anyone.

 

[Gregorikos]

To identify as an alcoholic or addict after many years of abstinence, doesn't make any sense. I never discuss my past life as an addict with anyone, it's shameful thing that should be left in the past. I don't see how obsessing over the past can benefit anyone.

Paul identified as a sinner 30 years after his conversion. (1 Timothy 1:15)

 

[chilehed]

I don't see how obsessing over the past can benefit anyone

The fact that you say that is just more proof that you don't understand the AA or NA programs at all. It sounds as if maybe you were listening too much to people who were working their own programs, rather than the AA program.