Leaving a charismatic cult....Is everyone else "APOSTATE" or is that another lie?

[Presbyterian Continuist]

"Most of the problems, difficulties and deceptions that bring Christians into bondage come through the church,"
That's quite a statement - personal experience? Can you give examples?

All you have to do is look at the heresies that came into the Early Church. John wrote his Gospel and letters to discount the Gnostic heresy. When the Church became formalised and institutionalised after around 400AD, teachings emerged that God had withdrawn the supernatural gifts. This was a lie. Then a pope was elected and it was suggested that he was the vicar of Christ, that anyone coming to God must come through him. Then you had the worship of Mary and the saints. All these were lies and deception coming through the church.

The current deceptions in the Charismatic church are that a person has to have a sensory experience to know that they are filled with the Spirit, that one had to speak in tongues in order to be saved, that the pastor's teaching and instructions were law, that only approved tapes and books could be read by members, that born-again Christians could have a Jezebel spirit, prophecies that accuse people of sin, giving guidance, telling people who to marry, when a couple are going to have a baby, naming and claiming on the basis of "I believe it", rather than on the basis of God's Word. All these are lies and deceptions that bring Christians into bondage.

I think that would answer your question.

 

[jiminpa]

I wonder if you have an unrealistic expectation of the church. If you are depending on the church to feed you instead of Christ, then it is no surprise that you are starving spiritually.

I expect a place to fellowship, worship God and mutually build one another up. Do you expect less from the one you are a leader in? If so why? I would not stay in a church that did not advance my walk with God, let alone aid it to continue in mediocrity.

 

[hopeinGod]

The current deceptions in the Charismatic church are that a person has to have a sensory experience to know that they are filled with the Spirit, that one had to speak in tongues in order to be saved, that the pastor's teaching and instructions were law, that only approved tapes and books could be read by members, that born-again Christians could have a Jezebel spirit, prophecies that accuse people of sin, giving guidance, telling people who to marry, when a couple are going to have a baby, naming and claiming on the basis of "I believe it", rather than on the basis of God's Word. All these are lies and deceptions that bring Christians into bondage.

I know of no group who declares one has to speak in tongues to be saved. There are those that believe tongues is the evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost, which is well documented in Scripture, but not a single group that says a person has to speak in tongues to be justified.

The sad truth among most of the body of Christ is that God's threefold work of salvation: justification, sanctification and glorification, are such a jumbled mess. Thus, we have those who say a person can lose his/her salvation through misbehavior which is a lie from hell.

Normally, those who have as complete a disgust with the Spirit filled portion of the body of Christ, those who believe in the distinctly second work in the believer's soul called the baptism of the Holy Ghost, as I read in your post, aren't Spirit filled themselves. Surely, there are many offshoots today that claim all sorts of things, especially the restoration of the prophetic office as in the days of the prophets; whereas, Baptists believe that which is perfect has come so there is no longer any need for the five fold ministry offices listed in Eph. 4. Hogwash!

The extremism that abounds with gift conscious groups, those who major on them at the expense of relationship with Christ, has certainly tainted the church with their lack of balance and sound teaching; but, this is not to say that the five fold ministry offices are defunct except for pastors, evangelists and teachers, which, as some denominations believe have melted into one office.

 

[salamacum]

"The sad truth among most of the body of Christ is that God's threefold work of salvation: justification, sanctification and glorification, are such a jumbled mess. Thus, we have those who say a person can lose his/her salvation through misbehavior which is a lie from hell."
I agree with this and I would even go so far that those who trumpet their reformed gospel also are nervous about implying that sinning is OK. All leaders need authority and some sort of restraining fear is useful and what better than the fear of losing your salvation.

 

[hopeinGod]

"The sad truth among most of the body of Christ is that God's threefold work of salvation: justification, sanctification and glorification, are such a jumbled mess. Thus, we have those who say a person can lose his/her salvation through misbehavior which is a lie from hell."
I agree with this and I would even go so far that those who trumpet their reformed gospel also are nervous about implying that sinning is OK. All leaders need authority and some sort of restraining fear is useful and what better than the fear of losing your salvation.

Absolutely. The Charismatic churches with whom I once associated are steeped in this ungodly and unjust fear manufactured out of an ignorance of the truth. His lovingkindness will He not utterly take from any of us, nor suffer His faithfulness to fail, for it is to Himself that He swore to keep us. Nothing is able to pluck us out of His hand and even if we make our beds in hell, He's there.

 

[salamacum]

The trouble is, HopinGod, that the greatest preachers and currently highly-respected teachers preach this insecurity.
They will preach the perfect sacrifice of Christ and then drop in a parable from the gospels (eg about God not forgiving YOU if you don't forgive, even though He previously forgave you). Read a book some time ago by John Stott on Romans where the perfect forgiveness/sacrifice new life born-again thing was going along nicely and then he circumvented a difficult passage in revelation that talked of judgement by works. (As in all those justified will OF COURSE manifest good works which will be the essential visible sign of our new life - well WILL IT, and is it ESSENTIAL? Is it INEVITABLE that the justified will produce good works?)
Then I have heard recently that Mr Stott is actually a Lordship salvation adherent. I am not surprised but I am very confused.
And many of us (all of us) are quite capable of holding contradictory views in our minds.

 

[Yahu]

Hi,
I have left a charismatic cult that was filled with lying signs, lying dreams, a false teacher and tons of (false) prophesy. A large part of the draw and legitimacy of the group was the idea that most of Christianity (called churchianity) is apostate....that it is BABYLON, and we are to "come out from it and be separate."

From this teachings, I began to believe I was sinning to visit or attend a Christian church or even listen to Christian pastors on the radio- outside of the teacher of the group and a few approved teachers.

I am desiring to simply fellowship in a place that loves God and teaches the Word... and considering attending a Baptist church. I am highly sensitive to issues of control, legalism, and manipulation....and so far it seems good....kind, loving, healthy.

Has anyone else been taught it is sin to go to a normal church? Is this a common cult teaching....or is it part of a reform movement from the Holy Spirit...??

You are very right to be sensitive to manipulation and control. Any church/denomination/cult into that is dealing with spirits of witchcraft.

A good sign of a church under the influences of a Jezebel spirit is if they are rooted in arrogance as being superior to other christians/group/denomination. That arrogance and superiority breeds attempts to manipulate and control because 'they know better then all the other stupid people'. That leads to usurping of invalid authority which is the root of witchcraft. Of course a Jezebel spirit is a ruling spirit over all those lesser attributes of manipulation, control, witchcraft, superiority, ...

When witchcraft is present, there will be false signs of the spirit.

I also attended a bible school like what you experienced. It was a small WoF bible college.

 

[parsley]

Psalm 232, not sure if you're still here but I hope things are improving.

I was in situations like that which I allowed to go on too long, probably because I tried so hard to prove I could do it well. The demands among the people were so high, that I kept trying to prove my devotion and spirituality -- while they dragged the carrot farther away.

Some people assume that only illiterate, helpless waifs fall into cult behavior. But the home base of ours was highly educated, wealthy, and even blueblooded. The high demands were a fit challenge for overachievers. They were proud of being God's favorites, accomplishing a lot for God's kingdom, and standing by the truth so well.

For me, it took a long time to get my personal theology back in order and my trust restored. That was okay though -- it would not have made sense to jump right back into following others' orders.

Your choice of a Baptist church was probably wise, as in your region they seem to be fairly safe, family-oriented churches. If that didn't work out, don't be afraid to face the whole healing process as it needs to go. Being locked in to one church isn't always a perfect solution, so trust God's nudges and trust your own judgment.

It was helpful for me to look at secular cult definitions -- lists of typical tactics of corrupt or wayward sect leaders. I also found unusual comfort in reading Isaiah and Jeremiah, and seeing how God reacted to religious leaders that did not care for their sheep.

Singer, Margaret, Ph.D.: "Six Conditions for Thought Reform"
(scroll down a little)

 

[lismore]

Your choice of a Baptist church was probably wise, as in your region they seem to be fairly safe, family-oriented churches.

In my experience a lot of former charismatics and pentecostals find a spiritual home in a baptist church.

 

[hopeinGod]

Many friends of mine, with whom I spent my earliest years as a young Charismatic, have changed course from their previous visions. The correct purposes of God to which I was at last given exposure came in my seventh year as a believer. I was saved in 1972. How liberating it was to see extremism for what it truly was and had done to me.

But even those lengthy teachings, that led me more perfectly, were filled with bitterness and condemnation against the "others" in the body of Christ who were still very much attached to WOF dogma and many other errors.

So, ultimately, and without my immediate notice, a root of bitterness sprang up in me after a couple of years sitting under those marvelous teachings, to remain for far too many years.

One of the couples, both strong believers in the baptism of the H.G., became educated, which was all well and good, then found employment in an Episcopaleon church that contained mostly burned out Charismatics, all of whom were extremely gun shy in regard to the operation of gifts and the baptism in general. It was never commanded, but there was to be no more speaking or singing in tongues, no more prophecy, no more mercy seats, no more healing services, etc. Instead, what came from the pulpit were nothing more than feel good messages, those that weren't very challenging, and others dedicated more toward those fancy terms used by seminarians -- as opposed to words in due season. Today, my two friends are a part of a huge, yet very unanointed Baptist church, where they are paid well to be religious.

The whole system of slow, but well intended, denial blows me away.

 

[Andrea411]

Hi,
I have left a charismatic cult that was filled with lying signs, lying dreams, a false teacher and tons of (false) prophesy. A large part of the draw and legitimacy of the group was the idea that most of Christianity (called churchianity) is apostate....that it is BABYLON, and we are to "come out from it and be separate."

From this teachings, I began to believe I was sinning to visit or attend a Christian church or even listen to Christian pastors on the radio- outside of the teacher of the group and a few approved teachers.

I am desiring to simply fellowship in a place that loves God and teaches the Word... and considering attending a Baptist church. I am highly sensitive to issues of control, legalism, and manipulation....and so far it seems good....kind, loving, healthy.

Has anyone else been taught it is sin to go to a normal church? Is this a common cult teaching....or is it part of a reform movement from the Holy Spirit...??

...I always tell people the first sign of a cult is they don't want you to listen to anyone else. Its one thing to advise people to avoid such and such but to only stay within their church environment lends itself to a closed mind. Visiting other churches challenges us and we should be up to those challenges..... IMHO.... Its really to keep their members and keep the money flow steady. Its difficult to worry about a mortgage and the bills if you can't rely on a steady congregation but if its His church He will provide.
There are some very steady strong churches that are full gospel. Many Baptists churches are what we call bapticostal.... I like Assembly of God. I would like to attend a four Suare but there are none in my area... Jack Hayford is their administrator and I love his teaching.
.....For good sound non-denominational "all about Jesus teaching" try Wayne Monbleau - you can find him online at LGM (Loving Grace Ministries). There are lots of free sermons and he is all about grace and Jesus... very scripture oriented.
God bless, and please remember the good things you learned from the past church.... there were probably more good then bad. I came out of LDS so I know about false churches and how painful that can be

 

[lismore]

Today, my two friends are a part of a huge, yet very unanointed Baptist church, where they are paid well to be religious.

IMO one of the strengths of a baptist church is that they are congregational, there is more scope for 'body ministry' there.

 

[Gospel Guy]

most of Christianity (called churchianity) is apostate....that it is BABYLON, and we are to "come out from it and be separate."

It is... They call it "extreme grace" so they can live like the world and ignore most of the New Testament, ignore cultivating a close personal relationship with the Lord (walking in the Spirit - see Romans 8) and if anyone disagrees with them, they claim you are under the law and need to get free!

Just put your relationship with the Lord first and foremost in your life based on scripture and ask for God's leading and His wisdom concerning finding the church where you belong.

Remember, if ya find the perfect church... whatever you do, don't join that one cause you'll mess it up

 

[salamacum]

"most of Christianity (called churchianity) is apostate....that it is BABYLON, and we are to "come out from it and be separate."

I've heard this so many times.....

For it to mean anything other than spreading anxiety then the denominations, churches, doctrines that are apostate have to be identified.

Once that is done the mutual apologetics can and do begin.

 

[parsley]

...I always tell people the first sign of a cult is they don't want you to listen to anyone else

So true.
And they pride themselves in being the center of God's ministry in the area-- which we all know is ridiculous when there are churches on every corner.

I have watched several churches fall into this -- from the inside -- and it always started with pride and exclusivity. In fact, some of the ministries were given prophecies about humbling themselves to prevent a fall, and they misinterpreted them!
Well you can guess the rest of the story.

Within us all, we have that sort of cult mentality. We each want to believe we are the best Christian, have the right opinions about faith, have an exclusive connection to God. Some of that is for good reason, but we are called to work corporately and edify each other in love. If that's not going on, there's probably trouble.

Has anyone else been taught it is sin to go to a normal church? Is this a common cult teaching....or is it part of a reform movement from the Holy Spirit...??

 

[Andrea411]

I know of no group who declares one has to speak in tongues to be saved. There are those that believe tongues is the evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost, which is well documented in Scripture, but not a single group that says a person has to speak in tongues to be justified.

The sad truth among most of the body of Christ is that God's threefold work of salvation: justification, sanctification and glorification, are such a jumbled mess. Thus, we have those who say a person can lose his/her salvation through misbehavior which is a lie from hell.

Normally, those who have as complete a disgust with the Spirit filled portion of the body of Christ, those who believe in the distinctly second work in the believer's soul called the baptism of the Holy Ghost, as I read in your post, aren't Spirit filled themselves. Surely, there are many offshoots today that claim all sorts of things, especially the restoration of the prophetic office as in the days of the prophets; whereas, Baptists believe that which is perfect has come so there is no longer any need for the five fold ministry offices listed in Eph. 4. Hogwash!

The extremism that abounds with gift conscious groups, those who major on them at the expense of relationship with Christ, has certainly tainted the church with their lack of balance and sound teaching; but, this is not to say that the five fold ministry offices are defunct except for pastors, evangelists and teachers, which, as some denominations believe have melted into one office.

United Pentecostals is just one group that believes you MUST speak in tongues. None of the charismatic churches I've attended teach that way. Speaking in tongues is beneficial but there are so many other gifts that benefit the body of Christ, I would not attend a church that insisted people need to speak in tongues to be saved, even though I do speak in tongues

..... but for all the stuff we argue over... what about the simplicity of the gospel... what do you need to believe to be saved....

"If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved." Romans 10:9-10

 

[hopeinGod]

United Pentecostals is just one group that believes you MUST speak in tongues. None of the charismatic churches I've attended teach that way. Speaking in tongues is beneficial but there are so many other gifts that benefit the body of Christ, I would not attend a church that insisted people need to speak in tongues to be saved, even though I do speak in tongues

..... but for all the stuff we argue over... what about the simplicity of the gospel... what do you need to believe to be saved....

"If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved." Romans 10:9-10

But then, a UP will tell you that salvation can be achieved only if you are baptized in the name of Jesus ONLY, the cornerstone of their heresy, as their lostness reaches to the greatest of all lies, that one can lose his/her salvation.

 

[Andrea411]

But then, a UP will tell you that salvation can be achieved only if you are baptized in the name of Jesus ONLY, the cornerstone of their heresy, as their lostness reaches to the greatest of all lies, that one can lose his/her salvation.

...??? I was only answering a post where someone was not aware that anyone actually taught 'tongues was necessary for salvation'... it's a bit more complicated with UP but its not my thing anyway. I don't argue with well intentioned people unless the Lord leads them into my life.... then I share Christ as I know Him. I have never found it profitable to argue with cults... seems if you convince them they have believed a lie they often give up altogether... better to share salvation then to try to undo their mess....
..truth is... in any church if you could get into people's heads you'd find a real hodgepodge of belief systems going on... The Lord never said we had to be smart or in the correct denomination.... His Church is a mystical body of followers... not a theological debate team. Exhort and encourage.... don't try to win the argument. We should all be willing to lose the argument, allow them to save face, and hear the truth in a way they can 'think on it'.... faith comes by hearing........ so often the shrill tone I hear is so deafening, I'm surprised most people bother to argue.
God bless, may you know His presence and grace, andrea

 

[RBPerry]

I was only answering a post where someone was not aware that anyone actually taught 'tongues was necessary for salvation'... it's a bit more complicated with UP but its not my thing anyway. I don't argue with well intentioned people unless the Lord leads them into my life.... then I share Christ as I know Him. I have never found it profitable to argue with cults... seems if you convince them they have believed a lie they often give up altogether... better to share salvation then to try to undo their mess....

This is some of the best common sense advice on this thread, thank you.

 

[hopeinGod]

...??? I was only answering a post where someone was not aware that anyone actually taught 'tongues was necessary for salvation'... it's a bit more complicated with UP but its not my thing anyway. I don't argue with well intentioned people unless the Lord leads them into my life.... then I share Christ as I know Him. I have never found it profitable to argue with cults... seems if you convince them they have believed a lie they often give up altogether... better to share salvation then to try to undo their mess....

I strongly believe that apologetics works, and works well. It is better, in my estimation, to detail the avenues of error, their origins and deviation from the truth in an effort to halt the continuing thought life that surrounds error.

Getting saved is great, but it does not always answer all of the issues of a person's life. Many people become attracted to any proponent of a movement that comes by who appears to be the answer to their existing dysfunction.

Getting saved is not always an immediate panacea for all of life's dilemmas and questions.