Least Common Denominator of being Anabaptist.

[WayneinMaine]

Yes, but the Amish believe they are the purist form of Anabaptist.

So do some Mennonite, notably the Reformed Mennonites, and of course so do some Hutterites, who probably come closest to being true in their claim!

In fact, among themselves, they say that no other group is even really truly Christian. They believe the logical conclusion to a true understanding of the Bible is to live like they do.

Unless they were been insincere, the Amish I have gotten to know never pressed that claim.

...Maybe that's just one pastor's opinion, but I have read several booklets my parents had about the evils of the world and how to live in the world is to make alliance with Satan and to kill any hopes of seeing paradise.

That may be the opinion of several pastors. I don't think it characterizes the whole of the Amish church any more than a Presbyterian pastor holding the same opinion of his faith estalishes that this is a doctrine of Presbyterianism.

Whatever else the Amish believe, they do not believe you or anyone outside their communities, to be their true brethren in Christ, even me if I never return.

Again, based on your experience, that is how you believe, based on my experience with different Amish in differetn circumstances than yours, that is not how I see it.

 

[RenewedbyFaith]

Unless they were been insincere, the Amish I have gotten to know never pressed that claim.

You do realize that the Amish are not themselves around outsiders and they say and do things differently when outsiders are around. If you want to know who the Amish really are, you have to be one of them for several decades, and even then they put on a different face for non-family members. And even then, the Amish in Lancaster put on a different face for family members from Ohio than they do for family members from PA.

You can know some Amish people for many years without knowing any Amish people at all.

 

[RenewedbyFaith]

Again, based on your experience, that is how you believe, based on my experience with different Amish in differetn circumstances than yours, that is not how I see it.

It's based on their doctrine and teachings. You have to get to know them very well before they will admit they feel that way, and even then they will not admit it to people outside their own community. What the Amish really believe stays among the Amish.

 

[RenewedbyFaith]

That may be the opinion of several pastors. I don't think it characterizes the whole of the Amish church any more than a Presbyterian pastor holding the same opinion of his faith estalishes that this is a doctrine of Presbyterianism.

You are completely misunderstanding the Amish. There is no "Amish church" in which every Amish person is a member, like every Presbyterian is a member of the Presbyterian church. Each Amish community is independent and determines its own doctrine, standards, teachings, governance and precepts. Being a member of one community does not entitle a person to be a member of every Amish community. Even people born Amish may have to go through a proving period in order to be accepted by another community.

Even if you were completely accepted by one Amish community and knew everything about who they are and what they believe, it is going to be completely different from what the next Amish community believes. No one person can claim to know what the Amish believe from knowing one or several Amish communities.

 

[WayneinMaine]

You are completely misunderstanding the Amish. There is no "Amish church" in which every Amish person is a member, like every Presbyterian is a member of the Presbyterian church.

I've been making that point for a long time. I'm using the term "church" in a broader sense. If you prefer: "Mennonite churches, Amish churches, Hutterite churches".

 

[WayneinMaine]

There is an over-reaching culture of Anabaptism that transcends sect or denomination, but it is practiced in a variety of expressions.

But, clearly you have your mind made up and it's a waste of time to try to educate you or persuade you. I've abstained from this forum for many months because of vain and selfish agendas like this one.

God bless you in your search for whatever answer it is that you want everyone to believe in lieu of reality!

Why are you so hostile to me?

Is your point that only ethnic/genetic Amish (no matter what they believe) are Anabaptists? If so I will find a dozen Hutterites and Mennonites (ethnic and non-ethnic) who disagree? Never once in answer to my queries about what constitutes the irreducible doctrines of Anabaptism has anyone suggested ethnicity.

Are you suggesting that we can only discuss Anabaptism in terms of ethnic Amish?

Why the hostility to my query and my discussion points?

What is your point?

 

[RenewedbyFaith]

Why are you so hostile to me?

I'm not the least bit hostile to you. Why do you interpret my post as hostile?

If by hostility you mean "why do you disagree with me?" then the only thing I can say is, I have to tell the truth about what I know. Although you may be knowledgable for a non-Amish, you cannot begin to know or speak for the Amish. It doesn't mean you don't know anything, it just means you don't know everything. Nor do I know everything. By listening to each other's viewpoints and experiences, we both end up knowing more than we did before.

Is your point that only ethnic/genetic Amish (no matter waht they believe) are Anabaptists? If so I will find a dozen Hutterites and Mennonites (ethnic and non-ethnic) who disagree? Never once in answer to my queries about what constitutes the irreducible doctrines of Anabaptism has anyone suggested ethnicity.

No, and I didn't say that one has to be ethnically Anabaptist to be Anabaptist, but Anabaptist can be an ethnicity. That's all I said.

It's certainly possible to become Anabaptist by conviction and conversion and it happens all the time. That's one way to be Anabaptist, but not the only way. A person doesn't have to have "Anabaptist genes" but some Anabaptists do.

Are you suggesting that we can only discuss Anabaptism in terms of ethnic Amish?

No, but I have a unique perspective on the ethnically Amish, which I am sharing here. Since this is a discussion thread concerning, in part, statements that were made about the Amish, I am contributing about the Amish to this thread. I'm contributing what I know to the discussion, just as you are contributing what you know.

Why the hostility to my query and my discussion points?

I feel no hostility toward you or your discussion points and have exhibited no hostility. Disagreeing is not hostility.

It seems to me that you are reacting to something you are inferring into my posts, something that was never intended or expressed. By giving information that I received first hand through experience, I am in no way negating the validity of information you received first hand through experience.

 

[tulc]

What the Amish really believe stays among the Amish.

LOL! They sound like a theological Las Vegas!
tulc(sorry, these things just slip out before I can stop them)

 

[RenewedbyFaith]

LOL! They sound like a theological Las Vegas!
tulc(sorry, these things just slip out before I can stop them)

LOL!

Trust me, you are a lot more likely to find out what a married man did on a weekend in Vegas than you are to find out what happens inside the Amish community! Most banks would like to have vaults as impenetrable as the divide between Amish and Englishers!

Anna Beth (The things that just slip out of tulc are usually very clever and true!)

 

[WayneinMaine]

I'm not the least bit hostile to you. Why do you interpret my post as hostile?

This was a friendly thing to say?:

But, clearly you have your mind made up and it's a waste of time to try to educate you or persuade you. I've abstained from this forum for many months because of vain and selfish agendas like this one.
God bless you in your search for whatever answer it is that you want everyone to believe in lieu of reality!

If by hostility you mean "why do you disagree with me?" then the only thing I can say is, I have to tell the truth about what I know. Although you may be knowledgable for a non-Amish, you cannot begin to know or speak for the Amish. It doesn't mean you don't know anything, it just means you don't know everything. Nor do I know everything. By listening to each other's viewpoints and experiences, we both end up knowing more than we did before.

You are not the only Amish to put pen to paper. You are relating your persopective, I have different experiences and I know people (Amish and Ex-Amish) who report differently from you.

Read John Hostetler, read Peter Hoover, read Elmo Stoll, they are every bit as ethnically "Anabaptist" as you are and their opinions about what constitutes Anabaprtism (and about the Amish) is different from yours.

Is your point that only ethnic/genetic Amish (no matter waht they believe) are Anabaptists? If so I will find a dozen Hutterites and Mennonites (ethnic and non-ethnic) who disagree? Never once in answer to my queries about what constitutes the irreducible doctrines of Anabaptism has anyone suggested ethnicity.

No, and I didn't say that one has to be ethnically Anabaptist to be Anabaptist, but Anabaptist can be an ethnicity. That's all I said.

Then I add that to the results of my query.

It's certainly possible to become Anabaptist by conviction and conversion and it happens all the time. That's one way to be Anabaptist, but not the only way. A person doesn't have to have "Anabaptist genes" but some Anabaptists do.

I appreciate that acknowledgement. Maybe we can discuss what constitutes the Anabaptism that one converts to. That's what I'm interested in.

...I have a unique perspective on the ethnically Amish, which I am sharing here. Since this is a discussion thread concerning, in part, statements that were made about the Amish, I am contributing about the Amish to this thread. I'm contributing what I know to the discussion, just as you are contributing what you know.

I appreciate your perspective within its reach -that is, it is your experience with a limited set of Amish churches nd does not represent all Amish churches or individuals, nor does it represent Anabaptism in the broader sense of the term.

 

[RenewedbyFaith]

Good night Wayne.

I think you might be too tired to have a civil discussion tonight.

If I thought you were making a serious query, I would continue to participate in this discussion, but it is apparent that you have your heart set on being right, regardless of what others contribute. You say you want input, but you've done nothing but argue with the people who have given you input. And when people don't just accept what these mysterious "other" Anabaptists say from unknown sources, you get hostile. That's a sign of a sleepy person.

Good night and don't let the bedbugs bite!

 

[WayneinMaine]

I still don't understand your slam. I recognize Amish ethnicity, I do not recognize that only those with Amish or Mennonite "blood" are Anabaptists, or that Anabaptist spirituality is so intrinsically linked to ethnicity that only those with that heritage know anything about Anabpatism.


I'm a little surprised you don't at least know John Hostetler. He was a Mennonite sociologist; his parents left the Amish when he was you. Peter Hoover is a Mennonite (from a horse and buggy group) who authored "The Secret of the Strength", Elmo Stoll was an Amish bishop in the Aylmer Ontario district and editor of "Family Life" until he started "the Christian Community" in Tennessee.

 

[Joykins]

Is it actually harder to become Amish than it is to become Jewish

 

[RenewedbyFaith]

I still don't understand your slam.

There was no slam.

I recognize Amish ethnicity, I do not recognize that only those with Amish or Mennonite "blood" are Anabaptists, or that Anabaptist spirituality is so intrinsically linked to ethnicity that only those with that heritage know anything about Anabpatism.

I never said that.

I'm a little surprised you don't at least know John Hostetler. He was a Mennonite sociologist; his parents left the Amish when he was you. Peter Hoover is a Mennonite (from a horse and buggy group) who authored "The Secret of the Strength", Elmo Stoll was an Amish bishop in the Aylmer Ontario district and editor of "Family Life" until he started "the Christian Community" in Tennessee.

I know about Hostetler. Everyone knows about Hostetler. Everyone knows about Hoover and Stoll, too. So what? Although they wrote books about the Amish, they don't necessarily speak for every Amish person.

 

[RenewedbyFaith]

Is it actually harder to become Amish than it is to become Jewish

I don't know what it takes to become Jewish, so I can't really answer that.

To become Amish is no easy task. Even if you are willing to give up everything to join them, there is still a proving period that can last 10 years or more before you are accepted as a member, and even then you will always be considered "that Englisher" who joined the community, and your children and children's children will always be viewed as being Englisher.

A friend of mine tried to join about 10 years ago. He had to give up his job, give up his parents, give up finishing high school, give up his car, give up almost everything he owned.

He's still waiting to complete his proving period. He can't marry, be a member of the church or a full member of the community until he is approved, and it doesn't look like he ever will be. Several times he has met with the elders and asked for baptism, and every time they say the same thing, not yet, maybe next year.

He speculates that the reason he hasn't been baptized yet is because he would be eligible to marry afterwards, and none of the men in the community want their daughter to be the one to marry an Englisher.

 

[Joykins]

Conversion to Judaism, especially Orthodox, is similarly difficult. It takes years of study, immersion in the community, active perseverance (conversions are not encouraged), and appearance before a religious court. It's a little easier to convert to Reform, but not all Jews accept Reform conversions as valid. I know 2 who have converted and it took about 3 years for each of them, that was Reform, and both of them were marrying Jewish people.

 

[RenewedbyFaith]

It does sound similar.

The Amish do not encourage conversions, either and will actively discourage people and can become downright exclusionary if a person persists in attempting to approach them after it has been determined that the community would not welcome them.

It is impossible for a non-Amish person to marry an Amish person. The Amish person would have to leave the community in order for that to happen.

An older Amish man I know was seriously injured in a farming accident when he was a young man and had to spend many weeks in a nearby hospital. He met a young student nurse there, and because she was assigned to his care and they were together a great deal over a long period of time, they got to know each other and fell in love.

After the Amish man was released from the hospital, he would walk two miles into the nearest town to use the pay phone to call the student nurse, and they arranged to meet several times in places he wouldn't be known. After many months, they wanted to get married. He went to the elders of his community, as a man has to do in order to get permission to marry, and told them that she was willing to convert and learn to live as an Amish woman. The elders forbid the marriage because the woman had an education and they didn't want her talking to the Amish woman about what life was like outside the community because they feared it would mean the women would want to leave the community and get educations and jobs for themselves.

Ultimately he realized that he had no choice but to break off the relationship, since she could not join him in his world and with his fifth-grade education, he knew he could never get a job in her world.

He lost the love of his life because the elders feared an outsider would impact the community.

 

[Notrash]

As working among Amish Mennonite cultures as a driver/transporter, I also have some re pore with them and insights. I was just thinking today about the similarities between their religion and that of the Jew or Judaism. Both have some focus on family and heritage as their religion. A Mennonite man/woman can probably go back 5-7 generations about his Mennonite heritage. But he might not be able to quote John 3:16 or other common verses. Some of them are biblically versed, but the majority are not.
GA

 

[RenewedbyFaith]

I've found that's true with many ethnic Amish and Mennonites I know. Their heritage is very important to them, but they may not understand the spiritual roots of that heritage or be able to relate it to their lives today.

Others are very learned about the Bible and their spirituality is as important to them as their heritage.

It's hard to separate Anabaptists from their heritage. It's even important to those who weren't born Anabaptist. It sort of becomes their adopted heritage. Many people can keenly feel the injustice when they read Martyr's Mirror and identify with the persecutions, even if they never experience it themselves.

 

[Floodnut]

If ya wanna get technical, ANABAPTIST just means someone who rejects a previous baptism (usually their own infant baptism as a papist), and submits to a subsequent baptism in another Christian group.

But traditionally, historically in most of the literature on the subject and amongst groups that are considered "anabaptist," the term is used to refer to those groups or doctrines which originated with the German Brethren, or with the Mennonites. I would say that some groups that have anabaptist roots are not really anabaptist any longer as to their particular doctrinal and ethical positions.
The usual anabaptist position on the incarnation is called by most protestants, "the heresy of the anabaptists," (That Mary contributed NOTHING to the substance of Christ). Yet many mainline groups with anabapitst roots have no idea what is involved in this controversy. The old position of all anabaptists was NEVER pacifism or an anti-War attitude, as much as it was Non-Resistance, a demeanor and attitude apparently not so important in some here who see themselves as anabaptist.
Regardless of roots or origin and culture and ethicity, can a black person from Africa or a Chinese person be anabaptist?
What is the essence, the shared value that would make a new believer, a convert out of Islam or Taoism an anabaptist?