Least Common Denominator of being Anabaptist.

[WayneinMaine]

Actually this forum was started when the Baptists threw us out of the forum we shared with them. To my knowlege? We never were consulted, just woke up one day in our little ghetto.
tulc(that's when most of us got the hint)

Given how some of the discussions have gone here... I'm not surprised. I know Menno changed his ID and went back to the Baptists.

Who set up the intro stuff and stickies? I'm still puzzled at "Mennonite, Anabaptist and Quaker" as the designation for the Anabaptist forum.

 

[tulc]

Who set up the intro stuff and stickies?

Who evers name is listed in the OP.

I'm still puzzled at "Mennonite, Anabaptist and Quaker" as the designation for the Anabaptist forum.

Well the Mennonites and Anabaptist share common theological ancesters and I think they stuck the Quakers in with us because they have a common anti-war history. Like I said, no one actually discussed anything with us, it was just presented as a "best for everyone here" sort of thing.
I will add I think it's cool we have the Quakers with us, I just wish it had been handled better.
tulc(actually, being whitetrash, I'm kind of used to getting thrown of of places)

 

[WayneinMaine]

...I think they stuck the Quakers in with us because they have a common anti-war history... I will add I think it's cool we have the Quakers with us, I just wish it had been handled better.

Then there should be an "Anti War" forum. Was that the issue that got this group started?

I used to be part of a plain dressing group. It's wearying to have people come up addressing me as "thee" and of course asking me about Quakers and Shakers. The association of Quakers with Anabaptists, while "cool" (I know some cool Quakers, I also know atheist Quakers) is a little misleading.

 

[WayneinMaine]

So Tulc, what do you think the least common denominator is among Anabaptists?

 

[tulc]

Was that the issue that got this group started?

Who knows? Again, no one talked to us.

The association of Quakers with Anabaptists, while "cool" (I know some cool Quakers, I also know atheist Quakers) is a little misleading.

Not to me.
tulc(hasn't posted this much in here for quite a while)

 

[tulc]

So Tulc, what do you think the least common denominator is among Anabaptists?

Not sure there is one. Maybe an unwillingness to subject their concience to anothers authority?
tulc(just a thought)

 

[CelticRose]

Hi tulc. Nice to see you round.

 

[tulc]

Hi tulc. Nice to see you round.

Nice to be round.
tulc(built for comfort, not for speed!)

 

[Joykins]

Fellowship of Grace Brethren Churches has no non-resistance or peace stand and in fact has many active military servicemembers as members.

 

[Floodnut]

Anabaptist seems to me to be an issue of heritage and identification with groups which share that common heritage. Quakers certainly are not in that group, regardless of whether or not they should be disallowed from a present fellowship. Many people join an anabaptist communion without any sort of history in that heritage, but because they share the burdens for non-conformity, non-swearing of oaths, or non-resistance (and by the way historically anabaptists are not so much anti-war as we are NON-RESISTANT and pro peace).
My mother was Scotch-Irish but her family way back joined the Mennonites. My father's side goes way back to Melchior the Exile who was expelled from Switzerland, and then Melchior the Pilgrim who wandered homeless in Eastern Europe, and finally there was Melchior the Pioneer who came to Pennsylvania.
I was raised in the Mennonite Church in Scottdale till about 1961 or so, when I was 6 or 7 years old, and since them I have been in a Grace Brethren Church (anabaptist with Dunkard roots) and then Church of the Brethren (same roots), and then Charismatic with an emphasis on the Sermon on the Mount essentials of anabaptist ethics, then PRO-WAR pentecostalism, and a few others. Now I am in a "worldly" community church, but I MYSELF am anabaptist and will always be such. It is in my blood, and in my spirit. I will always see my Psyche as founded in Peter Waldo and George Blaurach and Dirk Philips and Menno Simmons, and my father and mother and grandfather and greatgrandfather, and other ancestors like John M. Brenneman and Daniel Brenneman.

 

[Notrash]

Anabaptist seems to me to be an issue of heritage and identification with groups which share that common heritage. Quakers certainly are not in that group, regardless of whether or not they should be disallowed from a present fellowship. Many people join an anabaptist communion without any sort of history in that heritage, but because they share the burdens for non-conformity, non-swearing of oaths, or non-resistance (and by the way historically anabaptists are not so much anti-war as we are NON-RESISTANT and pro peace).
My mother was Scotch-Irish but her family way back joined the Mennonites. My father's side goes way back to Melchior the Exile who was expelled from Switzerland, and then Melchior the Pilgrim who wandered homeless in Eastern Europe, and finally there was Melchior the Pioneer who came to Pennsylvania.
I was raised in the Mennonite Church in Scottdale till about 1961 or so, when I was 6 or 7 years old, and since them I have been in a Grace Brethren Church (anabaptist with Dunkard roots) and then Church of the Brethren (same roots), and then Charismatic with an emphasis on the Sermon on the Mount essentials of anabaptist ethics, then PRO-WAR pentecostalism, and a few others. Now I am in a "worldly" community church, but I MYSELF am anabaptist and will always be such. It is in my blood, and in my spirit. I will always see my Psyche as founded in Peter Waldo and George Blaurach and Dirk Philips and Menno Simmons, and my father and mother and grandfather and greatgrandfather, and other ancestors like John M. Brenneman and Daniel Brenneman.

We're starting to break ground. Several posts have said mouthfuls.

Tulc says: Not sure there is one. Maybe an unwillingness to subject their concience to anothers authority?
But the groups I know do subject it to the authority of that church 'group'. They believe what their told that their church believes for the most part.

Floodnut says:Anabaptist seems to me to be an issue of heritage and identification with groups which share that common heritage. Very insightfull.... but then you have sight from the 'inside'.

How often have I heard about not doing this or not doing that because it would offend the older generation or because that's not how my Grandpa used to do it and I wouldnt' want to offend him. One time I asked a fellow why he used a pen then since obviously his Grandpa or one of his ancestors would have used a pencil.
Sometimes this 'offending your brother idea' is simply behaving in a fearful way of that brothers accusations of jelousy or bitterness that things may be going better or easier for the 'offending' brother than they are for the offended brother.

I was just thinking today about weather or not there is a connection between some of the groups anabaptists and the Jews. Not neccessarily theologically speaking, but rather socialogically and consciously speaking. They are a family church. Those groups which share a common idea of creating manmade rules or guidelines are part of their identity. Jews have a similar "church' of common helps and common rules/order.
Not to take the coorelation too far, but it seems to be there sometimes.

Another thing I've noticed is that they seem to disbelieve election and predestination. I guess that falls in with assurance of salvation, Dont' think this is the forum for that debate, but there is some differences between anabaptists and other (calvin, luther,) type of reformers. Some of the diffences I can appreciate, some I find unfounded or of incorrect interpretation biblically.

TG

 

[WayneinMaine]

Anabaptist seems to me to be an issue of heritage and identification with groups which share that common heritage.

I find ethnic Mennonites, Amish and Hutterites use the term "Anabaptists" more in reference to either the historical movement of the 16th century or a set of theological / spiritual ideas, and less as a "heritage" that is inherently part of who they are. Mennonite, Hutterite. Amish are all used in reference to a heritage or ethnic identity, quite separate from spiritual beliefs. I know many Mennonites who will say that they are not "Anabaptists" -they do not believe and practice the same strand of Christianity as the Anabaptists and are not interested in doing so -but they are still Mennonite.

I was just thinking today about weather or not there is a connection between some of the groups anabaptists and the Jews. Not neccessarily theologically speaking, but rather socialogically and consciously speaking. They are a family church. Those groups which share a common idea of creating manmade rules or guidelines are part of their identity. Jews have a similar "church' of common helps and common rules/order.
Not to take the coorelation too far, but it seems to be there sometimes.

I think there is a similarity between Jews and Mennonites in the relationship that any ethnic group and subculture has to its religion. The "manmade rules or guidelines" are not arbitrary -they are the stuff of culture and sub-culture. American culture has plenty of "man-made" rules, as do any religious subculture in America.

Another thing I've noticed is that they seem to disbelieve election and predestination. I guess that falls in with assurance of salvation, Dont' think this is the forum for that debate, but there is some differences between anabaptists and other (calvin, luther,) type of reformers. Some of the diffences I can appreciate, some I find unfounded or of incorrect interpretation biblically.

Well of course. Anabaptists are not Protestant. For the most part Christian religious debate outside of Catholic/Orthodox circles in North America seems always to be in the Protestant framework. Some key Protestant doctrines are irrelevent to Anabaptists, as I'm sure some key Anabaptist doctrines, which arre reasonable and biblical in the context of the basic Anabaptist hermeneutic, are weird to Protestants. One could as easily say Baptists don't believe in discipleship or the church or obeying God when viewed from, say, a Hutterite perspective as Baptists are Protestant and many of their ideas are unfounded or of incorrect interpretation biblically.

 

[RenewedbyFaith]

I find ethnic Mennonites, Amish and Hutterites use the term "Anabaptists" more in reference to either the historical movement of the 16th century or a set of theological / spiritual ideas, and less as a "heritage" that is inherently part of who they are. Mennonite, Hutterite. Amish are all used in reference to a heritage or ethnic identity, quite separate from spiritual beliefs. I know many Mennonites who will say that they are not "Anabaptists" -they do not believe and practice the same strand of Christianity as the Anabaptists and are not interested in doing so -but they are still Mennonite.

I happen to have been born Amish, to Amish parents who were offspring of Amish parents. Through family history and records, we can trace our heritage back 16 generations, every one of them Amish. Although I do not practice the Amish way any longer, I am and always will be, by heritage and genetics, Amish.

Amish heritage is Anabaptist heritage. The culture, the practice, everything about it was born out of Anabaptism. It is impossible to separate the Amish from the Anabaptists and the Anabaptists from the Amish, just as it would be impossible to separate the blue from the sky or the green from the frog. The Amish are one group of Anabaptists, they know it and embrace it as a lifestyle, a spiritual practice and a heritage.

For you to claim that people who are ethnically Amish or Mennonite can stop being that because they go to a different church or no church at all shows me that you don't have a good understanding of Anabaptism or it's peculiar culture. It's part of the identity of every Amish person whether they practice the faith or not.

If I went to a Presbyterian church or a mosque, I would still be an Anabaptist by heritage and genetics. If you looked at a picture of me, you would see the physical characteristics that are associated with the Amish. If you saw my lifestyle, you would know that I am Amish. The only thing that changed about my parents when they left the community was that they found a new expression of that heritage.

Although my family left the community before I was old enough to be aware of it, I am nonetheless Amish.

That's why there are so many Amish and ex-Amish that identify themselves like, "Rachel Miller Yoder Stolzfus Horst." They want you to understand that being Anabaptist is much more to them than just the church they go to, it is who they are as people and as a people. In fact, in the Mennonite churches I have gone to, if you don't have a long Anabaptist heritage, you aren't really Anabaptist at all. But if you do, you will always be Anabaptist no matter what.

And in fact, my Amish grandparents would say that unless you are Amish, you aren't really Anabaptist at all, you are just pretending to be.

 

[tulc]

And in fact, my Amish grandparents would say that unless you are Amish, you aren't really Anabaptist at all, you are just pretending to be.

Intersting idea, since the Anabaptist predate the Amish by about 100 years.
tulc(just a thought)

 

[WayneinMaine]

Intersting idea, since the Anabaptist predate the Amish by about 100 years.
tulc(just a thought)

It is.

Many Hutterites abandoned the faith in the 1600's and are known today in Slovakia as the Habaner. They are Catholic -are they Anabaptists? How many generations of not believing and practicing what the Anabaptists believed and practiced does it take before one is not longer Anabaptist? Can one only be born Anabaptist? Would Jacob Ammen consider a Presbyterian whose grandparents were Anabaptists to be one of them?

One can define Anabaptism as a purely ethnic identity, but in the context of a Christian discussion group is it really reasonable to define a group purely by ethnicity? Are Mennonite and other church scholare wrong to identify Anabaptism in theological and historical terms?

 

[tulc]

Are Mennonite and other church scholare wrong to identify Anabaptism in theological and historical terms?

Nope. Being Anabaptist has nothing to do with what our family believes/or is from. And the early Anabaptists would be appalled at the suggestion. (IMHO)
tulc(otherwise why did they get called "anabaptists"?)

 

[RenewedbyFaith]

Intersting idea, since the Anabaptist predate the Amish by about 100 years.
tulc(just a thought)

Yes, but the Amish believe they are the purist form of Anabaptist. They believe that all other Anabaptist groups are far afield from doctrines and precepts that are truly Anabaptist and that they alone know, understand and practice true Anabaptism.

In fact, among themselves, they say that no other group is even really truly Christian. They believe the logical conclusion to a true understanding of the Bible is to live like they do.

My aunt was mortally injured in a car-pedestrian accident. She was in the hospital for a few days before she died, and by some twist of administration, she was put in the same room as the woman who was driving the car that hit her, who had ht a pole after hitting my aunt. The woman who hit her was Beachy, and my aunt was Amish. My aunt was fully clothed in Amish nightwear, with her headcovering and a shawl over her shoulders to protect her modesty. The woman who hit her took off her headcovering and wore a hospital nightgown, no shawl or anything other than covers to protect her modesty. And she cried when the drugs wore off and she felt pain.

At my aunt's funeral, the pastor, my uncle, preached on the evils of being anything but Amish. He called the Beachy woman a harlot and said she might as well be Catholic as Amish. The Amish believe Catholicism is the embodiment of evil, and with every new pope, someone preaches a sermon or writes a pamphlet about how this pope is going to turn out to be the antichrist.

But back to my story. The preacher said that my aunt, dying as she was, stayed faithful to the one true faith, Amish, and that the Beachy woman, for all their plain-dressing, show themselves to be reprobates when they are put to the test by suffering. When she allowed herself to be "uncovered" in the hospital, she might as well have been naked and without proper Amish garb and lifestyle, no one can hope to please the Lord unto salvation. And when she cried in pain, she was showing that God was punishing her for her wicked lifestyle.

He said that no one can be saved outside the Amish church, and that Beachys and other plain people are pretenders, people who wish they were Amish but are unwilling to separate themselves from the world as they properly ought. And by doing so, they miss out on salvation.

Maybe that's just one pastor's opinion, but I have read several booklets my parents had about the evils of the world and how to live in the world is to make alliance with Satan and to kill any hopes of seeing paradise.

Whatever else the Amish believe, they do not believe you or anyone outside their communities, to be their true brethren in Christ, even me if I never return.

 

[WayneinMaine]

I happen to have been born Amish, to Amish parents who were offspring of Amish parents. Through family history and records, we can trace our heritage back 16 generations, every one of them Amish. Although I do not practice the Amish way any longer, I am and always will be, by heritage and genetics, Amish.

Amish heritage is Anabaptist heritage. The culture, the practice, everything about it was born out of Anabaptism.

They are not co-equal. Members of Mennonite and Hutterite and Brethren and Amish churches all have claim to being Anabaptist, but not all Anabaptists are Amish, not all Anabaptists are Hutterites, etc.

It is impossible to separate the Amish from the Anabaptists and the Anabaptists from the Amish, just as it would be impossible to separate the blue from the sky or the green from the frog. The Amish are one group of Anabaptists, they know it and embrace it as a lifestyle, a spiritual practice and a heritage.

My point is that not all who are ethnically Amish are spiritually Anabaptist.

For you to claim that people who are ethnically Amish or Mennonite can stop being that because they go to a different church or no church at all shows me that you don't have a good understanding of Anabaptism or it's peculiar culture. It's part of the identity of every Amish person whether they practice the faith or not.

Which culture? There is no Anabaptist culture, there is Amish culture, of which Anabaptism is a part; there is Hutterite culture, of which Anabaptism is the spiritual element, there are Mennonite cultures, in which Anabaptism plays a spiritual part. Anabaptism is not monocultural –it wasn’t in 1527 and is not today.

If I went to a Presbyterian church or a mosque, I would still be an Anabaptist by heritage and genetics. If you looked at a picture of me, you would see the physical characteristics that are associated with the Amish. If you saw my lifestyle, you would know that I am Amish. The only thing that changed about my parents when they left the community was that they found a new expression of that heritage.

Although my family left the community before I was old enough to be aware of it, I am nonetheless Amish.

You are ethnically Amish, the religion of your Amish ancestors was “Anabaptist”. I would not deny that there is an Amish ethnicity that transcends religion. I would deny that being ethnically Amish makes a person automatically spiritually Anabaptist. When your parents (or grandparents) left the Amish church, did the Amish still consider them to be of the same Anabaptists faith as them?

That's why there are so many Amish and ex-Amish that identify themselves like, "Rachel Miller Yoder Stolzfus Horst." They want you to understand that being Anabaptist is much more to them than just the church they go to, it is who they are as people and as a people. In fact, in the Mennonite churches I have gone to, if you don't have a long Anabaptist heritage, you aren't really Anabaptist at all. But if you do, you will always be Anabaptist no matter what.

I still think you are talking about Amish and Mennonite and Hutterite as the ethnic identifiers, not Anabaptist.

And in fact, my Amish grandparents would say that unless you are Amish, you aren't really Anabaptist at all, you are just pretending to be.

They may have said that, would they say you are Anabaptist? And what would they say of the non-Amish Hutterites and Mennonites and Brethren?

 

[RenewedbyFaith]

It is.

Would Jacob Ammen consider a Presbyterian whose grandparents were Anabaptists to be one of them?

I have often been told by the elders of my parents' community that I can always return to them, even my children and their children's children, because we will always be rightfully Amish, no matter what.

One can define Anabaptism as a purely ethnic identity, but in the context of a Christian discussion group is it really reasonable to define a group purely by ethnicity? Are Mennonite and other church scholare wrong to identify Anabaptism in theological and historical terms?

No it's not just an ethnic identity, but it's not just a spiritual identity, either.

It is a spiritual identity, an ethnic identity, a heritage identity, and a personal identity, individually and altogether. It's a lot more complex that you are understanding it to be.

 

[RenewedbyFaith]

Which culture? There is no Anabaptist culture, there is Amish culture, of which Anabaptism is a part; there is Hutterite culture, of which Anabaptism is the spiritual element, there are Mennonite cultures, in which Anabaptism plays a spiritual part. Anabaptism is not monocultural –it wasn’t in 1527 and is not today.

There is an over-reaching culture of Anabaptism that transcends sect or denomination, but it is practiced in a variety of expressions.

But, clearly you have your mind made up and it's a waste of time to try to educate you or persuade you. I've abstained from this forum for many months because of vain and selfish agendas like this one.

God bless you in your search for whatever answer it is that you want everyone to believe in lieu of reality!