Learning from NonChristians

[Noxot]

What do you feel Christians should learn from the world of unbelievers?


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I don't think "Christians" or "the world of unbelievers" are real things. I think each human being brings something to the table even if it is just the bad stuff they do that makes us say "I don't want to be that guy". but what someone brings to the table is not reduced to "i'm a christian" or "i'm a guy of the world", each human is much more unique than that.

I see a subculture of the world that calls itself "Christianity", this is what it has been reduced to, another facet of the world, because the truth can not be handled by most humans. it would cause a massive change in the world, it would kick people out of positions of power, it would cause people to stop hording things. it would make us stop destroying our own planet and ourselves. it would cause poverty and all the problems of the world to vanish. love does do that kind of stuff, but not enough believe or are willing because it's not happening to the degree that it could. no one would be in lack and everyone would have a home, the drive to work would be for the good rather than to survive. freedom would be reigning in the world, but instead people label themselves as "free" but exist in slavery.

the problem is not christian or secular, the problem is the human heart and it is not bound by whatever label the human decides to be part of. the problem is more close to home... not some objectified idea... it is not a church building, it is not a school institution, it is not this or that government or corporation... those things can not feel, they do not think, and they have no personality.

 

[dlamberth]

One thing I have learnt is that true compassion and love can often be shown by unbelievers and that christians can get messed up with this kind of "I do it because I want to go to heaven"

This is SOOOOO true!!

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[bhsmte]

Many things. Biggest of all ... what not to do in relationships.

I've mentioned this before, but just go to any non-Christian "relationship" forums. It's one disaster after another. And the poor advice given by people who haven't a clue. And validated by 99% of the other members. It's no wonder the world is in the mess it's in with its pervasive un-Godly mentality.

Is that why Christians divorce at a higher rate than non-believers?

 

[JGG]

Is that why Christians divorce at a higher rate than non-believers?

It's okay. Just let them demonstrate.

 

[smaneck]

many things. one of the biggest things that stand out right now is how not to ruin your life, wasting it away in sin.

Here is an easy way to learn something from a non-Christian. Show them this thread and see what impression it gives them of Christianity.

 

[smaneck]

^In other words..Serving God to see what you can get out of it other than what's for His glory. We need to come to Christ even if it means going to hell at the end of the road. Anything else, and we're serving God for ten shekels and a shirt. That's not my words but Paris Reidhead's.

I know a non-Christian who said it better. Of course she was talking about God, not Christ. She was an eighth century Muslim:

If I love Thee in fear of hell
May I burn in hell
If I love Thee in hope of paradise
Bar me from paradise
But if I love Thee for Thine own sake
Deny me not the beauty of Thy Face

 

[smaneck]

Well..Jesus did call a bunch of people children of the devil once.

Yeah, the ones who imagined they were children of Abraham. One might take that as cue not to be so sure of yourselves.

 

[smaneck]

Is that why Christians divorce at a higher rate than non-believers?

Most especially, Conservative Christians do the worst:

Making Marriage Last – Do Atheists Do It Better? | Away Point

 

[dlamberth]

I know a non-Christian who said it better. Of course she was talking about God, not Christ. She was an eighth century Muslim:

If I love Thee in fear of hell
May I burn in hell
If I love Thee in hope of paradise
Bar me from paradise
But if I love Thee for Thine own sake
Deny me not the beauty of Thy Face

Rabia Basri?


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[dlamberth]

^In other words..Serving God to see what you can get out of it other than what's for His glory. We need to come to Christ even if it means going to hell at the end of the road. Anything else, and we're serving God for ten shekels and a shirt.

I kind of like the idea of not stopping at Christ but going right on through Him and on to whom He worshiped and prayed to.

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[Eudaimonist]

Chasing after money and objects in life is an exercise in futility.

I totally agree. Good thing I don't live merely for wealth.

We can learn a lot from nihilism and how it ruins a person.

Good thing that being an atheist isn't the same thing as being a nihilist!


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[smaneck]

Rabia Basri?.

Yep, yep.

 

[DogmaHunter]

What christians should learn from non christians?

Well, speaking as an atheist, I'ld say a couple of things:

1. learn to treat people as "humans" and not as "christians" or "muslims" or "atheists". We are individuals, not worker ants in a colony labeled by a belief system.

2. you don't need to believe in supernatural stuff in order to have a moral compass, plenty of atheists are perfectly capable of leading moral lives every day

3. when talking to an atheist who does not believe in hell, it's a total waste of time to try and scare him with hell

4. when talking to an atheist about your religion, don't try to use the bible to prove the bible. the atheist doesn't see your bible as anything other then yet another ancient religious book and employing a circular argument to "prove" the book by using the book is not going to yield any results

5. when an atheist tells you about a problem he has and how and what needs to be done to fix that problem, don't tell him that you'll "pray for him", because in his ears that translates to "I'll be thinking happy thoughts about that". If you genuinely care, then pull up your sleeves and go help him fix the problem instead.

6. if you live in a secular democracy, stop waving your bible at every sociological problem or debate point.

7. stop judging people by the standards of your religious beliefs. It's insulting.

 

[smaneck]

5. when an atheist tells you about a problem he has and how and what needs to be done to fix that problem, don't tell him that you'll "pray for him", because in his ears that translates to "I'll be thinking happy thoughts about that". If you genuinely care, then pull up your sleeves and go help him fix the problem instead.

No, offense but that's a man's view. When a woman tells you about a problem, what she wants most is for you to listen. Men immediately want to fix the problem whereas a woman often just wants to be heard.

 

[quatona]

What do you feel Christians should learn from the world of unbelievers?

Well, I think I would have a couple of things to offer - but none of them is determined by what I don´t believe in.

 

[poolerboy0077]

What do you feel Christians should learn from the world of unbelievers?


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Skeptical inquiry. Specifically, to explore and exhaust epistemology in philosophy, recognize the limits of each, arrive at the best epistemologies we have on offer and then take an honest, inward look at how you arrived at your beliefs and whether the epistemological avenue you took is tenable and sound. It's often hard to do this because we are all disposed to want to confirm our own biases, but this is one the biggest lessons anyone would do well to explore and reflect on.

But as quatona said above me, none of this derives from what I don't believe.

 

[DogmaHunter]

No, offense but that's a man's view. When a woman tells you about a problem, what she wants most is for you to listen. Men immediately want to fix the problem whereas a woman often just wants to be heard.

I'm talking about actual problems that need fixing. Not emotional problems or similar.

The problem with telling an atheist with a problem "i'll pray for you" is that the theist actually thinks it will make a difference. To the theist, it's like helping. To the atheist, it's just you absolving yourself from the responsibility to actually help. I find it hard to explain.

I'll give a concrete example to illustrate.

Sumatra, the tsunami in December. 250k dead.
I saw this documentary about the event and the world's reaction to it.
There was this one person who said that he and his church "were praying for them all the time". And he was genuinely happy about that. He genuinely believed that it made a difference. That just infuriates me.

To me, that's just them feeling guilty of leading comfy luxury lives while those poor people see their village and lives destroyed. They need to get rid of this guilt somehow. The best way to do that is by helping, giving you the feeling that you did your part and made a difference.
For an atheist like me, the only way to do that is actually help in some way. Send money, volunteer, what-have-you.

For them..... it was "let's think happy thoughts", making themselves believe that they helped by praying. And they are actually proud about it.

So, to stick to topic...
A lessen Christians can learn from atheists:
"2 hands working accomplish more then 1000 clasped in prayer"

 

[MarkSB]

Most especially, Conservative Christians do the worst:

Making Marriage Last – Do Atheists Do It Better? | Away Point

That article is extremely biased, and the data which the author references doesn't even back up what she is saying. She references several studies, the most comprehensive of which looks to be the Barna study:

Among adults who have been married, the study discovered that one-third (33%) have experienced at least one divorce. That means that among all Americans 18 years of age or older, whether they have been married or not, 25% have gone through a marital split.

The study showed that the percentage of adults who have been married and divorced varies from segment to segment. For instance, the groups with the most prolific experience of marriage ending in divorce are downscale adults (39%), Baby Boomers (38%), those aligned with a non-Christian faith (38%), African-Americans (36%), and people who consider themselves to be liberal on social and political matters (37%).

Among the population segments with the lowest likelihood of having been divorced subsequent to marriage are Catholics (28%), evangelicals (26%), upscale adults (22%), Asians (20%) and those who deem themselves to be conservative on social and political matters (28%).

Born again Christians who are not evangelical were indistinguishable from the national average on the matter of divorce: 33% have been married and divorced.

https://www.barna.org/barna-update/...-and-divorce-statistics-released#.Uw1x8jiPKLw



She then goes on to reference a CNN article that says divorce rates are higher in Bible belt states, and attributes the higher divorce rates to their religious beliefs (apparently the local culture has nothing to do with it).

Am I missing something here?

 

[smaneck]

I'll give a concrete example to illustrate.
Sumatra, the tsunami in December. 250k dead.
I saw this documentary about the event and the world's reaction to it.
There was this one person who said that he and his church "were praying for them all the time". And he was genuinely happy about that. He genuinely believed that it made a difference. That just infuriates me.

I think there is an advantage to having religious people pray about things like this; their prayers just might inspire them to actually do something as well. When you are praying for something you are at least thinking about it. And getting people to think about such things is the first step to getting them to act.

 

[smaneck]

She then goes on to reference a CNN article that says divorce rates are higher in Bible belt states, and attributes the higher divorce rates to their religious beliefs (apparently the local culture has nothing to do with it).

Am I missing something here?

As someone who lives in Mississippi, I have to say it is pretty hard to separate religious beliefs from the local culture. But it is possible that economic class has something to do with it as well. More people are poor here. It is rather like our prison population. I venture to guess that the prison population has a higher percentage of fundamentalist Christians than does the US population as a whole. But it's not because their religious beliefs lead them to criminal behavior.

In other words, correlation does not prove causation.