Lead us not into temptation.

[sparow]

Rubbish.

I do not know what you are calling rubbish, so I do not know if I agree or disagree.

from a Catholic website:

Pope Francis thinks the English version of the Lord's Prayer "is not a good translation." He's specifically referring to the line, "lead us not into temptation," which is something he says God wouldn't do, but rather "it is Satan" who leads us into temptation.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Either way, it's just one or another mis-translation in advertised instances.

 

[sparow]

What and he just happened to give it to us in the KJV?

Try reading Matt. 6:13 in a few different translations of the Bible.

I have looked at numerous translations and they all imply it is God who leads us into temptation and the Prayer asked God not to do so.

I have used the word Pagan when I should have said hypocrites and gentiles; the prelude from the earlier verses in chapter six includes:

Matthew 6:1-9 (ASV)
1 Take heed that ye do not your righteousness before men, to be seen of them: else ye have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.
2 When therefore thou doest alms, sound not a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have received their reward.
3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
4 that thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father who seeth in secret shall recompense thee.
5 And when ye pray, ye shall not be as the hypocrites: for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have received their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thine inner chamber, and having shut thy door, pray to thy Father who is in secret, and thy Father who seeth in secret shall recompense thee.
7 And in praying use not vain repetitions, as the Gentiles do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8 Be not therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
9 After this manner therefore pray ye. Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I have looked at numerous translations and they all imply it is God who leads us into temptation and the Prayer asked God not to do so.

Look on biblegateway.com for more translations with perhaps a better rendition.

 

[gordonhooker]

I have looked at numerous translations and they all imply it is God who leads us into temptation and the Prayer asked God not to do so.

I have used the word Pagan when I should have said hypocrites and gentiles; the prelude from the earlier verses in chapter six includes:

Matthew 6:1-9 (ASV)
1 Take heed that ye do not your righteousness before men, to be seen of them: else ye have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.
2 When therefore thou doest alms, sound not a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have received their reward.
3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
4 that thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father who seeth in secret shall recompense thee.
5 And when ye pray, ye shall not be as the hypocrites: for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have received their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thine inner chamber, and having shut thy door, pray to thy Father who is in secret, and thy Father who seeth in secret shall recompense thee.
7 And in praying use not vain repetitions, as the Gentiles do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8 Be not therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
9 After this manner therefore pray ye. Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

I said read not look, and I would suggest you read a wider range. Also I do read scripture every day so I am quite happy for you not to cut and paste scripture, but if you feel you must please cut and paste scripture that relate directly to my post and written in the vernacular of the day, else I will ignore it.

thanks, G

 

[Halbhh]

I'm not in the Catholic church, but I noticed this article about what the pope said much more exactly -- not like the headlines -- has a very useful set of explanations.

Short and good.
No, Pope Francis is not changing the Lord's Prayer

 

[gordonhooker]

I do not know what you are calling rubbish, so I do not know if I agree or disagree.

from a Catholic website:

Pope Francis thinks the English version of the Lord's Prayer "is not a good translation." He's specifically referring to the line, "lead us not into temptation," which is something he says God wouldn't do, but rather "it is Satan" who leads us into temptation.

The quoted above my response 'Rubbish'.

 

[Philip_B]

Matthew 6:13 NRSV

And do not bring us to the time of trial,
but rescue us from the evil one.​

Whilst I don't wish to engage in translation wars, the NRSV has a good reputation for scholarship and independence. The rendering of the text here picks up something of the eschatological overtone in the text here, which I also not is mirrored in the way that the Lord's Prayer was used in the Didache. In many ways I see this as a more conservative rendering of the text. We do know that the early Church had a greater feeling of immanence when it came to Eschatology than we often reflect today.

 

[sparow]

Matthew 6:13 NRSV

And do not bring us to the time of trial,
but rescue us from the evil one.​

Whilst I don't wish to engage in translation wars, the NRSV has a good reputation for scholarship and independence. The rendering of the text here picks up something of the eschatological overtone in the text here, which I also not is mirrored in the way that the Lord's Prayer was used in the Didache. In many ways I see this as a more conservative rendering of the text. We do know that the early Church had a greater feeling of immanence when it came to Eschatology than we often reflect today.

The Pope it seems and he may have been misquoted, makes the point that God does not lead us into temptation but Satan does; but regarding scripture the variation in wordage or translation does not change my view, which is, salvation is all about mankind being on trial.

 

[dougangel]

I actaully think that means for God spirit or the holy spirit to help us not to be lead into temption. So I have no problem with it.

 

[Goatee]

When it comes to most things Catholic people like to start a fire when there is no need of one!

 

[Erik Nelson]

according to Strong's Concordance, the Greek verb is eis-phero, which literally means into-carry or into-bring. No connotation of (mis-)leading per se.

"Don't bring us into temptation..."
"Don't carry us into temptation..."

2 Peter 1:21, "holy men of God spake as they were carried by the Holy Spirit"
Heb 12:20, "For not could they carry that which was commanded..."

I offer that God carries & brings people by the Holy Spirit to do God's Will. So that the Lord's Prayer is asking God not to inspire us into dangerous trying situations, that we might not be able to handle, but to instead inspire us with "easy marching orders" along safe paths far from sin and evil.

 

[SteveCaruso]

It's quite possible that this was the intention of the petition in its original language.

My thoughts on the matter here: Pope Francis Suggests “Change” to Lord’s Prayer

 

[gordonhooker]

according to Strong's Concordance, the Greek verb is eis-phero, which literally means into-carry or into-bring. No connotation of (mis-)leading per se.

"Don't bring us into temptation..."
"Don't carry us into temptation..."

2 Peter 1:21, "holy men of God spake as they were carried by the Holy Spirit"
Heb 12:20, "For not could they carry that which was commanded..."

I offer that God carries & brings people by the Holy Spirit to do God's Will. So that the Lord's Prayer is asking God not to inspire us into dangerous trying situations, that we might not be able to handle, but to instead inspire us with "easy marching orders" along safe paths far from sin and evil.

Which then begs the question... Why would God want to inspire us into dangerous trying situations in the first place. I go with the NRSV translation...

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Quote. Pope Francis has signalled his approval of moves already under way in the Catholic church to change the line in the English version of the Lord's Prayer, from “Lead us not into temptation” to “Don't let me fall into temptation”. Noting that it was a bad translation, Pope Francis said: “It's Satan who leads us ... Unquote

I have never questioned this verse of scripture I have always assumed that I knew what it meant. The Pope's correction is dependant on his interpretation of the translation; I have problems with the words also but I don't see the Pope correcting the problem universally. I do not see any difference between being lead into temptation and falling into it; is temptation a place like hell or a state like euphoria. It is true Satan tempts us to do evil and God tempts us to do good, but here tempt is a verb.

In determining correct doctrine I believe in the two witnesses, the OT and the NT being in agreement.


Psalm 95:8
8 "Do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion, As in the day of trial (temptation) in the wilderness,

Revelation 3:10
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial (temptation) which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

In Rev 3:10 the Prayer, "Lead us not into trial, but deliver us from evil", is fulfilled; I think the Pope is on the wrong track.

The way I look at it is after the baptism of Jesus in the wilderness, the Holy Spirit lead Jesus into the desert to be tempted by the devil.
.
Another way I Look at it is where James says God temps no one, but we are dragged away by our own evil desires, this account has nothing to do with the Devil.
.
I get the sense the quoted Pope seems to be crossing scriptural wires here.

 

[pshun2404]

IMHO the problem arises in the translation "temptation" which is literally mostly meant to say "trial". Where "temptation" is from the world, the self, or the devil, a "trial" can be placed before us or allowed by or even from God to test us or cause us to grow. So our prayer should actually be lead us not into trial but deliver us from the evil one (this phrasing suggests an admission of our innate incapablilty to stand amidst many such trials). God does not lead one to separate themselves from Him (Isa. 59:2). His will is that all should be with Him.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Which then begs the question... Why would God want to inspire us into dangerous trying situations in the first place. I go with the NRSV translation...

NRSV also translates the verb as bring

the Gospels are full of examples of God inspiring people into dangerous situations that cost them life and limb and liberty, yes?

so the Lord's Prayer is petitioning God for "easier assignments"

 

[Erik Nelson]

IMHO the problem arises in the translation "temptation" which is literally mostly meant to say "trial". Where "temptation" is from the world, the self, or the devil, a "trial" can be placed before us or allowed by or even from God to test us or cause us to grow. So our prayer should actually be lead us not into trial but deliver us from the evil one (this phrasing suggests an admission of our innate incapablilty to stand amidst many such trials). God does not lead one to separate themselves from Him (Isa. 59:2). His will is that all should be with Him.

yes, Gal 4:14, Paul's bodily condition gave the Galatians a trial or test

So, "don't bring us into a trying test / trial..."

don't put us to the test, basically, but keep us safely out of harm's way

 

[com7fy8]

Jesus does not mean this only as a defensive thing, but He desires us to be bountiful, not just barely getting by.

Not necessarily .... hopefully that is you're not referring to the destructive to both truth and to faith prosperity gospel (a sometimes fatal, often overwhelming temptation/ trap for believers unaware)

I mean spiritually, in God's love, including >

"be content with such things as you have" (in Hebrews 13:5).

And bountiful includes how we are sharing with one another Jesus people, as family. Having family love in Jesus is a major part of our prosperity. And so, leading us not into temptation would include how God guides us so we do not get into personal and ministerial things which get us away from sharing as family in Jesus, and so we do not get entangled (2 Timothy 2:4) and stressed-out in what is not God's will.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

When it comes to most things Catholic people like to start a fire when there is no need of one!

Or another one - it's already burning fiercely ! (as must be the case)