LDS LDS, The Father, and the Trinity

[fatboys]

So JS saw God, John the Baptist, Peter, James and John as angels?

It seems odd that some are always telling us 'How do you know the Bible is true', but the same people don't bat an eye when those in the Bible are seen by their prophet.

Huh

 

[withwonderingawe]

So JS saw God, John the Baptist, Peter, James and John as angels?

It seems odd that some are always telling us 'How do you know the Bible is true', but the same people don't bat an eye when those in the Bible are seen by their prophet.

That's an odd statement, 'we ask you how do you know the Bible is true' hoping you will pray to God to ask him to send his Holy Spirit to declare the Bible to be true and from God. We don't want you to believe the Bible just because it's old or because mom and dad believed. It is only through his Spirit can you know the truth for yourself. We certainly believe the Bible to be true, that John the Baptist, Peter, James and John were real people, real prophets of God.

 

[withwonderingawe]

The information is on your lds website. Do you not know your own history? The "official" version wasn't written until 1838 and not published until March 15, 1842 in your Times and Seasons. There are 7 earlier known accounts that have different facts, including none of which identify 2 personages as God the Father and Jesus Christ. Only 1 of those says 2 personages, the rest are an angel, many angels, Jesus only, and my favorite, the Willard Chase 1833 account of an 1827 story told to him by JS, Sr., where JS opened a box in the woods, saw the book, tried to take it out, and was hindered by a toad that suddenly transformed into a man and knocked JS in the head each time he tried to grab the book.

That's a heavenly encounter??? Regardless, inconsistancies in all of them. House of lds was built on sand, not the solid rock of Jesus Christ. In order for the lds to be right, Jesus Christ has to be wrong.

These different accounts are often second hand and Willard Chase is not a good source for truth. But let's give an example,

Joseph wrote in his journal on Nov 14, 1835 about a visit he had with Erastus Holems;

“… I commenced and gave hima brief relation of my experience while in my juvenile years, say from 6 years old up to the time I received the first visitation of Angels which wa when I was about 14 years old and also the visitations that I received afterwards concerning the book of Mormon…."

Now a critic will say see he changed his story and made it larger but 5 days before this he wrote in the same Journal about his visit with "Joshua the Jewish Minister.

“..I kneeled again my mouth was opened and my toung liberated, and I called on the Lord in mighty prayer, a pillar of fire appeared above my head, it presently rested down upon me head, and filled me with Joy unspeakable, a personage appeard in the midst of this pillar of flame which was spread all around, and yet nothing consumed, another personage soon appeard like unto the first, he said unto me thy sins are forgiven thee, he testified unto me that Jesus Christ is the Son of God; and I saw many angels in this vision I was about 14 years old when I received this first communication; … “

The Nov 14th entry is simply a quick notation, he wasn’t writing a thesis paper. He did refer to this experience as a “visitation of angels” perhaps in the way of Moses experience with a visitation of “the Angel of the Lord” in Ex 3.

 

[Peter1000]

So JS saw God, John the Baptist, Peter, James and John as angels?

It seems odd that some are always telling us 'How do you know the Bible is true', but the same people don't bat an eye when those in the Bible are seen by their prophet.

I'm not sure what you are getting at.

By now, you must know that I know the Bible is true, I know that because of by study and prayer, and a witness from the Holy Spirit.

I also have a witness from a prophet of God, who saw people from the Bible, face to face, and that also confirms what I know to be true.

You seem to have such a problem with the word "prophet". You must only read in the bible about "false prophets".

Do you not realize that from the beginning of the world, God has chosen men to communicate his Word to the people. God has always chosen "prophets" to disseminate the Word of God. The "prophet" hears the Word of God and writes it down and disseminates it to the public. Since the world began this is God's way to get His Word to the people.

So you are OK with the idea that since about 100 AD, which is 1900 years ago, God has been completely silent from the heavens. No living "prophet" has been among His people for 1900 years.

Now, I know you are going to say, well we have the bible, we don't need any more "prophets". And I say to you that is exactly what the Jews said, we have the Torah, we don't need any more "prophets". What happened to them?

We need "prophets" today as much as we needed them thoughout the history of the world, even though we have the wonderful Word of God in the bible. It was written up to 3400 years ago, and yes we can apply lots of today's problems to its words, but that has never been what God has done. He has always had the writings of past "prophets" + the Words of God to a current prophet and between them we get a much better view of what God wants us to do in our day.

So be aware of "false prophets", but don't throw the "true prophets" out the door, we need them, just like the world has needed them thoughout it's history.

 

[Peter1000]

So JS saw God, John the Baptist, Peter, James and John as angels?

It seems odd that some are always telling us 'How do you know the Bible is true', but the same people don't bat an eye when those in the Bible are seen by their prophet.

One other response to this post.

You see what can innocently happen. Right here on this chat room, how many times have you scolded me for misquoting you? How many times have you misquoted me? Well you did it here.

Here is part of what I said in post #80 which you referred to:
But it is true that JS saw God and Jesus, he also saw many angels, he also saw resurrected angels and spirit beings, but it was not confusing except if one tries hard to make it confusing. The heavens were again communicating with earth in a direct manner and bringing the true church of Jesus Christ back to the earth. For instance, one of the reasons I am a Mormon is because when JS was translating the BOM, he translated an event where priests were baptizing people, and it came to his mind that this could be a possibility with his situation, but he knew he had never been to a pastor school and had not been trained for the ministry, so he felt like he was not authorized to baptize. So he and his friend that was helping him translate went to pray about these things, and while they were praying John the Baptist appeared to them and gave them the authority to baptize. (The Aaronic Priesthood), then a few months later, Peter, James, and John, the 3 pillars of the church at Jesus's time, appeared to them and layed their hands on their heads and gave them the Melchisedec Priesthood and the same keys that Peter received from Jesus himself. If this doesn't happen, I am not a Mormon. If JS does not see God and Jesus and other angels, I am not a Mormon. It is because of these things, that I am a Mormon.

Now this is what I said. You quoted me as saying, "So JS saw God, John the Baptist, Peter, James and John as angels?" There is a difference.

The point being that by innocent mistakes, the words of JS can be changed, but they can also be changed by dishonest persons acting dishonestly.

 

[BigDaddy4]

nm

 

[BigDaddy4]

These different accounts are often second hand and Willard Chase is not a good source for truth. But let's give an example,

Joseph wrote in his journal on Nov 14, 1835 about a visit he had with Erastus Holems;

“… I commenced and gave hima brief relation of my experience while in my juvenile years, say from 6 years old up to the time I received the first visitation of Angels which wa when I was about 14 years old and also the visitations that I received afterwards concerning the book of Mormon…."

Now a critic will say see he changed his story and made it larger but 5 days before this he wrote in the same Journal about his visit with "Joshua the Jewish Minister.

“..I kneeled again my mouth was opened and my toung liberated, and I called on the Lord in mighty prayer, a pillar of fire appeared above my head, it presently rested down upon me head, and filled me with Joy unspeakable, a personage appeard in the midst of this pillar of flame which was spread all around, and yet nothing consumed, another personage soon appeard like unto the first, he said unto me thy sins are forgiven thee, he testified unto me that Jesus Christ is the Son of God; and I saw many angels in this vision I was about 14 years old when I received this first communication; … “

The Nov 14th entry is simply a quick notation, he wasn’t writing a thesis paper. He did refer to this experience as a “visitation of angels” perhaps in the way of Moses experience with a visitation of “the Angel of the Lord” in Ex 3.

I know you guys don't like the sources on some of them, but some how, some way, they heard about his alleged "first vision". Even the 2 examples you give above are inconsisitent with the "official" version. No identification of God the Father. A prophet should know the difference between "angels" and God the Father, Jesus, and/or an "Angel of the Lord".

Too many things are inconsisitent to be believable.

 

[withwonderingawe]

I know you guys don't like the sources on some of them, but some how, some way, they heard about his alleged "first vision". Even the 2 examples you give above are inconsisitent with the "official" version. No identification of God the Father. A prophet should know the difference between "angels" and God the Father, Jesus, and/or an "Angel of the Lord".

Too many things are inconsisitent to be believable.

Have you ever looked at the inconsistency of Paul's account, he didn't even write about it until 12 years after it happened and Luke couldn't keep the story straight at all. Maybe he made the whole thing up?

 

[Peter1000]

I know you guys don't like the sources on some of them, but some how, some way, they heard about his alleged "first vision". Even the 2 examples you give above are inconsisitent with the "official" version. No identification of God the Father. A prophet should know the difference between "angels" and God the Father, Jesus, and/or an "Angel of the Lord".

Too many things are inconsisitent to be believable.

Your right about that. There are some accounts that by some how, some way they heard about his alleged first vision, the sources of which we don't trust. That's the problem. There were so many mistaken layden accounts from so many sources that he finally sat down and wrote the final official version.

I know that the final official version is not the same in some instances as a journal entry or a talk that he gave, he would not necessarily give a full disclosure of the vision. He had this first vision when he was 14. Think about what you was doing when you were 14? He was not steeped in religion, although his mother says that he was a religious boy. He did read from the bible, it being about the only book in the house, so he was a believer in God and Jesus Christ. He was just trying to find out which church was right. He had no idea when the vision opened who was who. He did not know much about the reality of God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ, did they look like men, angels, or superior to these. Did they have bodies or were they spirits/angels. He was just 14 and didn't know. He did get a quick lesson, and he was a fast learner.

What he found out in that grove of trees and throughout the years was valuable information about the nature of God and His Son. He gave that to the world and literally was murdered for that testimony.

There are some inconsistencies, but I will bet if there were not, then the critics would be saying that because there are no differences, it proves its a fraud, because nobody can remember perfectly what happened even after 1 day, so this has to be a fraud because it is so consistent.

That few minutes that JS had with God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ to open the last dispensation of the gospel of Jesus Christ, is the most important few minutes in approximately the last 1900 years, since the last apostle of Jesus Christ was murdered. JS learned more about God and Jesus in that few minutes than the thousands of volumes of books that have been written about them since the last apostle died. Throughout the years there have been hundreds of theories about God and Jesus and has confused many people. In just a few moments, JS learned what was the true about Them.

 

[ToBeLoved]

That's an odd statement, 'we ask you how do you know the Bible is true' hoping you will pray to God to ask him to send his Holy Spirit to declare the Bible to be true and from God. We don't want you to believe the Bible just because it's old or because mom and dad believed. It is only through his Spirit can you know the truth for yourself. We certainly believe the Bible to be true, that John the Baptist, Peter, James and John were real people, real prophets of God.

That is making some assumptions on your part. You do not need to worry about us unless we do not know the Bible. I wouldn't assume someone believes just because their parents believed.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Have you ever looked at the inconsistency of Paul's account, he didn't even write about it until 12 years after it happened and Luke couldn't keep the story straight at all. Maybe he made the whole thing up?

Why don't you get very specific, with scripture of what you are talking about.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The point being that by innocent mistakes, the words of JS can be changed, but they can also be changed by dishonest persons acting dishonestly.

I wouldn't accuse me of being dishonest. Someone reported me and i got a one week ban for less.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Have you ever looked at the inconsistency of Paul's account, he didn't even write about it until 12 years after it happened and Luke couldn't keep the story straight at all. Maybe he made the whole thing up?

Irrelevant. Why don't you provide some facts to back your assertions up?

 

[withwonderingawe]

I'm going to throw this in;

The earliest known news paper report of Joseph first vision was written in February 1831 by a correspondent in the Palmyra Reflector. He was reporting second hand rumors he had heard so it’s full of some pretty crazy stuff that rumors are made of but it does mention Sidney Rigdon’s acceptance of the book so that shoots down the claim that he wrote it.

“Our Painesville correspondent informs us, that about the first of Nov. last,(so 1830) Oliver Cowdery, ….. and three others arrived at that village with the “New Bible,” …..that Jo Smith had now received a commission from God for that purpose, …. Smith (they affirmed, had seen God frequently and personally -- Cowdery and his friends had frequent interviews with angels, ….”

So the basic story about seeing God was known and being preached about as early as Nov of 1830.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Your right about that. There are some accounts that by some how, some way they heard about his alleged first vision, the sources of which we don't trust. That's the problem. There were so many mistaken layden accounts from so many sources that he finally sat down and wrote the final official version.

Wow, that would explain everything if it were true. But it's not. Even the versions written in his own handwriting are conflicting. That fact you cannot just explain away. He has credibility issues.

I know that the final official version is not the same in some instances as a journal entry or a talk that he gave, he would not necessarily give a full disclosure of the vision. He had this first vision when he was 14. Think about what you was doing when you were 14? He was not steeped in religion, although his mother says that he was a religious boy. He did read from the bible, it being about the only book in the house, so he was a believer in God and Jesus Christ. He was just trying to find out which church was right. He had no idea when the vision opened who was who. He did not know much about the reality of God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ, did they look like men, angels, or superior to these. Did they have bodies or were they spirits/angels. He was just 14 and didn't know. He did get a quick lesson, and he was a fast learner.

He wouldn't fully disclose it because he hadn't fully made it up yet. There are conflicts in his age, who he saw, what his purpose was for going in the woods, the dates of this supposed revivial, who he allegedly saw. Nice attempt at trying to explain it away, but the fact remains there are verifiable conflicts with his stories.

What he found out in that grove of trees and throughout the years was valuable information about the nature of God and His Son. He gave that to the world and literally was murdered for that testimony.

When you've got nothing else you resort to overdramatics? His testimony had little to do with his dieing and more to do with the reason he was in jail in the first place.

There are some inconsistencies, but I will bet if there were not, then the critics would be saying that because there are no differences, it proves its a fraud, because nobody can remember perfectly what happened even after 1 day, so this has to be a fraud because it is so consistent.

Odd. The Biblical view is the testimony of two or three witnesses. But you say that in order to not be deemed a fraud, he had to have inconsistant testimonies???

That few minutes that JS had with God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ to open the last dispensation of the gospel of Jesus Christ, is the most important few minutes in approximately the last 1900 years, since the last apostle of Jesus Christ was murdered. JS learned more about God and Jesus in that few minutes than the thousands of volumes of books that have been written about them since the last apostle died. Throughout the years there have been hundreds of theories about God and Jesus and has confused many people. In just a few moments, JS learned what was the true about Them.

Again, what he spoke, wrote, and taught about "Them" is not consistant with Scripture and therefore is invalid and makes him a fraud. You would have to prove the Bible isn't true for his lie to be the truth. And you can't do that. Been tried lots of times over the years with a 0% success rate.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Why don't you get very specific, with scripture of what you are talking about.

Okay;

First I need to apologize I was wrong about the first time Paul wrote about his experience in 1Cor 9. It is felt Paul wrote this between 53-54 AD so maybe 20 years afterwards.

1, Act 9: 3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Act 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless…

Acts 26:14 “ And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.”

Hebrew tongue, didn’t mention that in Acts 9 or 22,

2, was it all of them fallen or just Saul falling and who was standing where?

3, It actually does not say he saw Jesus, you don’t know that until Ananias say he saw him.

4, Act 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
Act 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

Who heard what when?

5, Act 9:9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.
Act 22 & 26 There is no mention of the three days and his fasting.


6, 7, &8 there are several different points here
Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales:

Acts 22
13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

No laying on of hands in his account and no being filled with the Holy Ghost. In the first account the scales fell away immediately in his own account it took an hour.

9, In Acts 9 :6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

The Lord tells Ananias what Paul’s calling is but Ananais never relays that message to Paul

Acts 22 Ananias tells Paul what is calling is

In Act 26 Paul says Jesus told him what his calling is
16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,

He doesn’t even mention being blind for three days and forgets Ananias altogether .

I could get pickyer but I think this makes my point.

 

[Ironhold]

So JS saw God, John the Baptist, Peter, James and John as angels?

It seems odd that some are always telling us 'How do you know the Bible is true', but the same people don't bat an eye when those in the Bible are seen by their prophet.

We keep asking that in large part because so many critics of the church have never actually taken the time to explore what it is that they actually believe; all they've ever done is look for reasons to look down on others.

 

[fatboys]

Wow, that would explain everything if it were true. But it's not. Even the versions written in his own handwriting are conflicting. That fact you cannot just explain away. He has credibility issues.



He wouldn't fully disclose it because he hadn't fully made it up yet. There are conflicts in his age, who he saw, what his purpose was for going in the woods, the dates of this supposed revivial, who he allegedly saw. Nice attempt at trying to explain it away, but the fact remains there are verifiable conflicts with his stories.



When you've got nothing else you resort to overdramatics? His testimony had little to do with his dieing and more to do with the reason he was in jail in the first place.



Odd. The Biblical view is the testimony of two or three witnesses. But you say that in order to not be deemed a fraud, he had to have inconsistant testimonies???



Again, what he spoke, wrote, and taught about "Them" is not consistant with Scripture and therefore is invalid and makes him a fraud. You would have to prove the Bible isn't true for his lie to be the truth. And you can't do that. Been tried lots of times over the years with a 0% success rate.

You know you can flap your gums over and over again with your beating a dead horse. I have read the accounts and the audiences and individuals he was speaking to. Now I am a person who likes to tell personal experiences in detail. Sometimes I tell a event leaving out much of the details for some people and others I am quite detailed depending on their interest. For example about a month ago I was feeding some cows that a guy left for me to feed. I lease him pasture for about 130 pair of cows and calves. I had some hay he didn't want to haul 70 miles to his home. So from dec 15 I started to feed about forty head of older mature cows. This property is about 8 miles from my home and I feed the cows from the back of my pickup truck. I only fed them one bale that weighed 1800 lbs. a day. My wife drives the truck while I flake off a section at a time onto the ground. As I was feeding the cows were coming up a hill from where they were settled over night. They like standing under trees or laying down on traw I put out for them. Anyway I noticed that one cow stayed down where the cows had stayed over night. I thought to my self darn she is sick. So I finished feeding them and went to bring her up to the corral to doctor her. I drove down next to her in the truck in about a foot and a half of snow. From the time I first saw her to when I pulled up to her in the truck she had laid down. I pulled close to her thinking she would get up. She didn't move. So I opened my door which was about two feet from her fully opened. She still didn't move. So I got close to her head and she tried to bunt me with her head. So I kicked her in the head. She didn't even try. So I so I went to the side of her and slapped her on her back. She still didn't move. So I took both my hands and slapped her and kicked her in he gut. She finally stRted to get up. I grabbed her tail to help her up. When she got her feet under her in a split second turned around and pinned me up against the front fender near the still open door. She banged me a couple of times and I squeezed out towards the front of the fender where she caught me again with her 1200 lb body. I squeezed out of that one and circled to my left thinking I could get around her like I have seen the rodeo clowns do. I was not that fast with a foot and a half of snow. She caught me and threw me up into the air. I landed on my feet and kept moving but she caught me again and threw me in the air. This time I landed on my stomach face down. The cow then jammed me into the snow pushing me. At first I thought I could have made it onto the truck but now I was working my way to get under the truck but again I had to swim through the deep snow. Finally I couldn't move any more as she was still agressively smashing into the ground. I turned over onto my back and tried to kick her head but she was to far up. Then she just fell on me trapping me underneath. In the mean time my wife who was raised a city girl was out of the truck kicking her head and screaming at her to get up. I was so proud that she would risk her health for my sake. The cow however was done. She used her last bit of energy to pummel me. The cow was not moving. I told my wife to get back into the truck. She said that she was not and was going to get the cow off of me. I told her she was not going to move and I thought I could wiggle myself out from under her. It took some time but I got out. My shoulder was hurt and my leg was ached. When I got home my leg started to hurt and swell a little. I did my afternoon runs on the bus and when I got home my leg had swelled and gotten hard. Anyway $3000 later from the hospital I had compartmentalism leaking in my calf muscle.
The short version is I got molested by a cow

 

[ToBeLoved]

Stop with the first vision accounts. If it bothers you that they are different think about the audiences he was speaking to. Think about the point he was trying to get across. If th accounts were exactly the same you would not be happy with that. They were too rehearsed. There should have been some differences. Holy cow think about the accounts in the bible so stop

So that is your answer to the two accounts of what happened being different? That it would have seemed rehearsed if the accounts were the same?

 

[ToBeLoved]

We keep asking that in large part because so many critics of the church have never actually taken the time to explore what it is that they actually believe; all they've ever done is look for reasons to look down on others.

Well I think you got lucky then with the people following this thread, because they all know the Bible well and what they believe very well.