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Featured LDS LDS Spirit Prison

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by Phoebe Ann, May 5, 2019.

  1. Christian Apologist

    Christian Apologist Active Member Supporter

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    The Bible says Paradise is in the third heaven or where God dwells:



    1st Heaven is Rakia to a Jew it is the atmospheric heaven found in Jer 8:7, 10:13

    Isa 55:10. it is were the birds fly clouds, made on 2nd day

    2nd heaven shamayim to a Jew it is the starry heaven found in Jer 44:17,25; Psalm 8:3

    3rd heaven shemi Hashamayim it is the heaven where God dwells found in 1 Kings 8:27, Deut. 26:15, 2 Chron 6:33 Eccl. 5:2



    This passage below says Paradise is in the third heaven, where the criminal and King David went

    2 Corth 12:

    1 It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord: 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.


    Rev 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate. 7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.


    REV 22: 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
     
  2. BigDaddy4

    BigDaddy4 Movin' on...

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    Your extra Biblical theology won't allow you to know. LDS theology muddies the water. How sad. However, as has been pointed out, the Bible does say he is forgiven. And there is only one heaven. So, yes, I do know what the outcome for David is.

    Theologically incorrect. Moses did not "execute" the Egyptian. And it did not stop him from crossing into the Holy Lands. Perhaps you should re-read Deuteronomy 32:50-52.
     
  3. devin553344

    devin553344 I believe in the Resurrection

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    It's simple actually, LDS doctrine is carnally created. Like having multiple sex partners in heaven, having eternal increase and being gods just as Jesus is god, being with your loved ones in heaven because you're sealed. If you can carnally imaging it then it is doctrine to them. Many earthly promises that people might buy into to pay 10% tithe.

    The point is that Joseph Smith created mormonism based off of earthly life. And people on earth are separated from God and Heaven. Or at least that's what JS understood although I don't think man could live without God's spirit. So why not fabricate a heaven and hell that is also earthly and carnal? Keeping in mind that all of mormon dictrines came from the mind of Joseph Smith. So if he could imagine it and people might pay 10% to him, it was ideal :(
     
  4. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Oh at least 3 bedrooms.
     
  5. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Your problem is your dirty mind. Get out of the gutter, and maybe what JS says will make sense.

    BTW, JS had 20,000 followers by the time he was murdered, but he was a rather poor man as riches are concerned. So if your goal was riches, why go and get killed for a hoax that was not making you rich?
     
  6. devin553344

    devin553344 I believe in the Resurrection

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    I believe we'll be as heavenly angels after the resurrection. I assure you my mind is not in the gutter. Neither is my doctrinal beliefs ;)
    Yeah I read a little about the rise of Hitler, he had many followers too. Believed religious strange things and eventually died for his beliefs. Not comparing Joseph to Hitler, but I don't see how your logic works. And you're also assuming Joseph knew he would die if it was for money, which is impossible to predict?
     
  7. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    LDS doctrine opens up the reason why David could be allowed in heaven after committing such heinous sins. Yes, God forgave him, and he will be allowed into heaven, but not into the heaven that the Godhead dwell in. Remember we are judged according to our works. Our works will determine where in heaven you are. David's works are both good and bad, therefore, we believe he will be in the second heaven, not in the lowest heaven, and not in the highest heaven. I know that makes no sense to you, but it makes perfect sense to me.

    Read 2 Corinthians 12:2. This mentions that a man was caught up into the third heaven.
    Now we can speculate all we want about what that third heaven meant, but for sure we know there are 3 heavens. You think they are one thing, and we think they are another. We think they reflect the heavens that exist after the resurrection and the judgement. You do not. That is your choice. But our interpretation of 3 heavens is certainly as biblically reasonable as your interpretation of 1 heaven.
     
  8. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

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    Which heaven for Joseph Smith?
     
  9. devin553344

    devin553344 I believe in the Resurrection

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    Interesting, and I'm asking because I don't know but in 2 Corinthians 12:2 Paul is discussing someone else's experience, not first hand and he appears confused about it. Not that Paul hadn't put his own words into the bible before 1 Corinthians 7:12. And it was 14 years prior to his letter, so was that while he was still killing Christians and such?

    So then I also ask, are we to accept this 3rd heaven second hand experience as true doctrine, or just second hand information that is sketchy doctrine?
     
  10. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    You will have to ask, is there stuff in the bible that is sketchy doctrine? If the bible says there is a third heaven, I would assume there was. We believe we have a handle on exactly what Paul was speaking about, because we believe in 3 heavens. So for us it is not a mystery at all, but a confirmation of what we believe.
     
  11. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    The Celestial heaven.
     
  12. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't have thought so, but when you use terms like multiple sexual partners in heaven, I was a little surprised at your bluntness.

    Most people will be as heavenly angels after the resurrection.

    My logic says that if I created a hoax to get rich, and not only was I not getting rich, but I was persecuted almost every day of my miserable life, I would give up the hoax, get on a horse and go west, leaving everything behind in flames. This is not what JS did.

    So he did not get rich from his hoax.
    And he took several bullets for his hoax. This does not make any sense unless you know that what you are doing is of God, and not a hoax.
     
  13. devin553344

    devin553344 I believe in the Resurrection

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    Thanks, if I am to believe there is a third heaven, then it would be from a biblical stance. And the first heaven would be the atmosphere, the second would be the stars, and the third would be with God. Something along those lines would be more sound doctrine I think.

    The bible discusses these heavens so you don't confuse your doctrine, the first heaven:

    Jeremiah 4:25 "I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled."

    Revelation 19:17 "And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God"

    The second heaven:

    Genesis 22:17 "That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies"

    etc, etc, etc...
     
  14. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Could I ask what your 3 heavens have to do with after the resurrection?
     
  15. devin553344

    devin553344 I believe in the Resurrection

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    Well I guess I was contrasting Jesus' teaching with that of LDS teaching:

    Matthew 22:30 "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven."

    Wife simply implies sexual relations. Which is probably why Jesus taught against wives in heaven.

    I still don't see your logic. I doubt Joseph would openly admit he was wrong after, as you said, having so many believers. I mean what a let down. And that would probably make his situation much worse I would think.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2019
  16. devin553344

    devin553344 I believe in the Resurrection

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    Not sure why you're asking.
     
  17. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    I will give you our explanation of Matthew 22: Jesus said, in the resurrection (which means after we are resurrected and in heaven) they neither marry (which means no new marriages), nor are given in marriage (which also means no new marriages), but are as the angels of God in heaven.

    So we interpret that as saying: in the resurrection there will be no new marriages performed.

    There will be marriages if they are performed before the resurrection and in the Lord.
    1 Corinthians 11:11 King James Version (KJV)
    11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

    So Paul is telling us neither is the man without the woman or the woman without the man, in the Lord.
    Paul did not put a time frame on this relationship.

    1 Peter 3:7 King James Version (KJV)
    7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

    There are many scriptures that give rise to marriage after death. So do not think that Matthew 22 says no marriage in heaven, it does not.

    Have you ever been married. If you think that all a wife is for is to have sex, you are missing a great deal of the best life that mortality has to offer. She is an help meet more than a sex object.

    It would if he had stayed around and saw the let down. But why would he if his believers were all nothing but targets for money. If you don't see my logic it is because you don't want to face up to the fact that JS was not a rich man, he was in fact quite poor. JS went to his death knowing that this was the end, and gave up his life for his testimony. This does not look like a hoax. It looks like the truth.
     
  18. devin553344

    devin553344 I believe in the Resurrection

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    Thanks for the morality lecture. But more interesting is your beliefs about heaven, so then you believe that you'll be man and wife in heaven and never have sexual relations there? Is that your belief? I'm asking because I'm curious.
     
  19. devin553344

    devin553344 I believe in the Resurrection

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    I don't believe what your teaching, and that is because the story that Jesus told regarding not being married nor given in marriage is perfectly clear and precise. I mean you simply can't twist that into what your suggesting without throwing out Jesus testimony all together and creating your own idea. And that is what Joseph Smith did in fact.
     
  20. Christian Apologist

    Christian Apologist Active Member Supporter

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    Joseph Smith lived in a mansion and he was quite wealthy
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2019
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