LDS LDS Baptism

[Rescued One]

Read this. Now because you don't accept the truth about me, but continue to make false accusations, I'm putting you back on ignore.

Why do you falsely accuse?

Acts 17
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Read this. Now because you don't accept the truth about me, but continue to make false accusations, I'm putting you back on ignore.

What accusations have I made? I'm simply asking you to clarify your beliefs. I'm not sure why you are so against that or deem it ignore worthy.

But if you want to talk about false accusations, we can talk about your post 219.

 

[MJFlores]

This came a shock to me after watching the video.
It is entitled: What Mormons Believe: Baptisms for the Dead
It is on YouTube

What shocks me is - being a proxy for a dead relative who is not a Mormon for them to become a Mormon.

My question is - what is the scriptural basis for this?

I know from the Holy Book that when a person dies, that is the end of him.
He could no longer repent for his sins.
The Lord Jesus said to unbelievers "you will die in your sins"
Actually if a person dies, its like "Pass your papers, finished or unfinished!"

So if you didn't study or wasted the time allotted to finish the exam, you can expect an "F"
When a person dies, I mean its over for him - if he wasted his time on earth and did not obey the commands of God, its adios amigo for him - and that is in the bible.

I think baptism of the dead is just isn't right. It runs contrary to this:

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 New International Version (NIV)

For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.
Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.

So what ever you do for the dead - praying or lighting candles for the dead love ones
are all in vain - because they have no further reward, no more part in anything that happens under the sun.

Even baptism for the dead - how can the dead who is 6 feet under the ground or turned to dust say - "Ok, baptize me through you kiddo." And the reason is very clear - because they have no further reward, no more part in anything that happens under the sun.

Unless the Mormons could cite a scriptural passage from the bible - supporting Baptism for the Dead?

 

[Ironhold]

Baptisms for the Dead | Baptizing by Proxy

You'll need to remember to keep hitting the "view more" tab, as much like a Facebook post bits are compressed to keep them from being walls of text.

 

[Jane_Doe]

This came a shock to me after watching the video.
It is entitled: What Mormons Believe: Baptisms for the Dead
It is on YouTube

What shocks me is - being a proxy for a dead relative who is not a Mormon for them to become a Mormon.

My question is - what is the scriptural basis for this?

I know from the Holy Book that when a person dies, that is the end of him.
He could no longer repent for his sins.
The Lord Jesus said to unbelievers "you will die in your sins"
Actually if a person dies, its like "Pass your papers, finished or unfinished!"

View attachment 193671

So if you didn't study or wasted the time allotted to finish the exam, you can expect an "F"
When a person dies, I mean its over for him - if he wasted his time on earth and did not obey the commands of God, its adios amigo for him - and that is in the bible.

I think baptism of the dead is just isn't right. It runs contrary to this:

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 New International Version (NIV)

For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.
Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.

So what ever you do for the dead - praying or lighting candles for the dead love ones
are all in vain - because they have no further reward, no more part in anything that happens under the sun.

View attachment 193676

Even baptism for the dead - how can the dead who is 6 feet under the ground or turned to dust say - "Ok, baptize me through you kiddo." And the reason is very clear - because they have no further reward, no more part in anything that happens under the sun.

View attachment 193681

Unless the Mormons could cite a scriptural passage from the bible - supporting Baptism for the Dead?

I'm going to start with what baptisms for the dead are NOT, and then I'll talk about what they are. They are NOT:
-Anyone magically becoming Mormon
-Anyone magically being saved
-Anyone being forced to do anything

Now the principles behind what they ARE:
- God is a merciful and just God. He wants ALL men to come unto Him and be baptized. But not everyone in this life has a chance to hear His words and come unto Him. So what happens to somebody who, through no fault of their own, never has the opportunity to accept Him?

Do they just burn in Hell as unrepentant sinners? No-- God is more merciful and just than that!
Does God go back on His words and let unrepentant unbaptisized sinners into heaven? No!

Rather, God gives *every* person the opportunity to repent and be baptized! If they didn't have the chance in this life, they will as spirits after their death but before the Final Judgement. God is that loving and merciful! In case of a deceased person (let's call him "Bob"), Bob's spirit can hear and accept Christ's glorious Good News- embrace Him and repent of his sins.

But what about Bob's baptism? After all, accepting baptism and spiritual rebirth is essential to following Christ. But a spirit cannot be baptized- you need a body for that. So God, in His mercy and justice, allows Bob's baptism to be done vicariously on Bob's behalf. That way, the law of baptism is satisfied and the mercy of Bob being allowed to embrace this covenant with God-- a joining with God Bob so yearns for.

On the flip side: if deceased "Sue" doesn't want to accept Christ and remains unchanged in that view until Final Judgement, then that is her choice. No baptism, done in this life or on her behalf, will have any effect because that is her choice.

More stuff and scripture verses:
Baptisms for the Dead | Baptizing by Proxy

 

[MJFlores]

I'm going to start with what baptisms for the dead are NOT, and then I'll talk about what they are. They are NOT:
-Anyone magically becoming Mormon
-Anyone magically being saved
-Anyone being forced to do anything

Now the principles behind what they ARE:
- God is a merciful and just God. He wants ALL men to come unto Him and be baptized. But not everyone in this life has a chance to hear His words and come unto Him. So what happens to somebody who, through no fault of their own, never has the opportunity to accept Him?

Do they just burn in Hell as unrepentant sinners? No-- God is more merciful and just than that!
Does God go back on His words and let unrepentant unbaptisized sinners into heaven? No!

Rather, God gives *every* person the opportunity to repent and be baptized! If they didn't have the chance in this life, they will as spirits after their death but before the Final Judgement. God is that loving and merciful! In case of a deceased person (let's call him "Bob"), Bob's spirit can hear and accept Christ's glorious Good News- embrace Him and repent of his sins.

But what about Bob's baptism? After all, accepting baptism and spiritual rebirth is essential to following Christ. But a spirit cannot be baptized- you need a body for that. So God, in His mercy and justice, allows Bob's baptism to be done vicariously on Bob's behalf. That way, the law of baptism is satisfied and the mercy of Bob being allowed to embrace this covenant with God-- a joining with God Bob so yearns for.

On the flip side: if deceased "Sue" doesn't want to accept Christ and remains unchanged in that view until Final Judgement, then that is her choice. No baptism, done in this life or on her behalf, will have any effect because that is her choice.

More stuff and scripture verses:
Baptisms for the Dead | Baptizing by Proxy

Oki doki got to read that too. Then would respond later.

 

[BigDaddy4]

I'm going to start with what baptisms for the dead are NOT, and then I'll talk about what they are. They are NOT:
-Anyone magically becoming Mormon
-Anyone magically being saved
-Anyone being forced to do anything

Now the principles behind what they ARE:
- God is a merciful and just God. He wants ALL men to come unto Him and be baptized. But not everyone in this life has a chance to hear His words and come unto Him. So what happens to somebody who, through no fault of their own, never has the opportunity to accept Him?

Do they just burn in Hell as unrepentant sinners? No-- God is more merciful and just than that!
Does God go back on His words and let unrepentant unbaptisized sinners into heaven? No!

Rather, God gives *every* person the opportunity to repent and be baptized! If they didn't have the chance in this life, they will as spirits after their death but before the Final Judgement. God is that loving and merciful! In case of a deceased person (let's call him "Bob"), Bob's spirit can hear and accept Christ's glorious Good News- embrace Him and repent of his sins.

But what about Bob's baptism? After all, accepting baptism and spiritual rebirth is essential to following Christ. But a spirit cannot be baptized- you need a body for that. So God, in His mercy and justice, allows Bob's baptism to be done vicariously on Bob's behalf. That way, the law of baptism is satisfied and the mercy of Bob being allowed to embrace this covenant with God-- a joining with God Bob so yearns for.

On the flip side: if deceased "Sue" doesn't want to accept Christ and remains unchanged in that view until Final Judgement, then that is her choice. No baptism, done in this life or on her behalf, will have any effect because that is her choice.

More stuff and scripture verses:
Baptisms for the Dead | Baptizing by Proxy

1. Baptism for the dead is unBiblical. The passage in 1 Corinth 15:29, in context, is about the resurrection, not an actual practice by Christians. The "those" in the passage refers to some other belief/practice. ("And as for us..." v. 30)
2. For "unrepentant unbaptisized sinners", God already addresses that in the first few chapters of Romans, about Romans 1:18 and forward.
3. Even IF it were a valid practice, it IS about someone magically becoming a Mormon because, according to the lds, it has to be done by someone with the proper "authority" as defined by the lds church and the "proxy" has to be a member of your church.

 

[MJFlores]

I'm going to start with what baptisms for the dead are NOT, and then I'll talk about what they are. They are NOT:
-Anyone magically becoming Mormon
-Anyone magically being saved
-Anyone being forced to do anything

Now the principles behind what they ARE:
- God is a merciful and just God. He wants ALL men to come unto Him and be baptized. But not everyone in this life has a chance to hear His words and come unto Him. So what happens to somebody who, through no fault of their own, never has the opportunity to accept Him?

Do they just burn in Hell as unrepentant sinners? No-- God is more merciful and just than that!
Does God go back on His words and let unrepentant unbaptisized sinners into heaven? No!

Rather, God gives *every* person the opportunity to repent and be baptized! If they didn't have the chance in this life, they will as spirits after their death but before the Final Judgement. God is that loving and merciful! In case of a deceased person (let's call him "Bob"), Bob's spirit can hear and accept Christ's glorious Good News- embrace Him and repent of his sins.

But what about Bob's baptism? After all, accepting baptism and spiritual rebirth is essential to following Christ. But a spirit cannot be baptized- you need a body for that. So God, in His mercy and justice, allows Bob's baptism to be done vicariously on Bob's behalf. That way, the law of baptism is satisfied and the mercy of Bob being allowed to embrace this covenant with God-- a joining with God Bob so yearns for.

On the flip side: if deceased "Sue" doesn't want to accept Christ and remains unchanged in that view until Final Judgement, then that is her choice. No baptism, done in this life or on her behalf, will have any effect because that is her choice.

More stuff and scripture verses:
Baptisms for the Dead | Baptizing by Proxy

Taken from the site: Baptisms for the Dead
in red are my comments, pics are also inserted

Jesus Christ taught that baptism is essential to the salvation of all who have lived on earth (see John 3:5).
true Many people, however, have died without being baptized. true Others were baptized without proper authority. true Because God is merciful, He has prepared a way for all people to receive the blessings of baptism. By performing proxy baptisms in behalf of those who have died, now that is the problem Church members offer these blessings to deceased ancestors. not good Individuals can then choose to accept or reject what has been done in their behalf.

Additional Information
Jesus Christ said, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (John 3:5). true Even Jesus Christ Himself was baptized (see Matthew 3:13-17). true

Many people have lived on the earth who never heard of the gospel of Jesus Christ and who were not baptized. true Others lived without fully understanding the importance of the ordinance of baptism. Still others were baptized, but without proper authority. true

Because He is a loving God, the Lord does not damn those people who, through no fault of their own, never had the opportunity for baptism. He has therefore authorized baptisms to be performed by proxy for them. this I don't agree. A living person, often a descendant who has become a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is baptized in behalf of a deceased person. this I don't agree. This work is done by Church members in temples throughout the world.

Some people have misunderstood that when baptisms for the dead are performed, deceased persons are baptized into the Church against their will. the dead cant really choose. This is not the case. Each individual has agency, or the right to choose. The validity of a baptism for the dead depends on the deceased person accepting it and choosing to accept and follow the Savior while residing in the spirit world. don't tell me you are going to use a medium to determine if the dead person accepts or not. The names of deceased persons are not added to the membership records of the Church. ok they are not members of the LDS, just proxy baptism for them "to be saved"

View More

Scripture References
Malachi 4:5-6

John 5:25

1 Peter 4:6

3 Nephi 25:5-6 (disclaimer - don't know this)

Doctrine and Covenants 124:93 (disclaimer - don't know this)

I will come up with my analysis on the matter later.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Taken from the site: Baptisms for the Dead
in red are my comments, pics are also inserted

Jesus Christ taught that baptism is essential to the salvation of all who have lived on earth (see John 3:5).
true Many people, however, have died without being baptized. true Others were baptized without proper authority. true Because God is merciful, He has prepared a way for all people to receive the blessings of baptism. By performing proxy baptisms in behalf of those who have died, now that is the problem Church members offer these blessings to deceased ancestors. not good Individuals can then choose to accept or reject what has been done in their behalf.

Additional Information
Jesus Christ said, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (John 3:5). true Even Jesus Christ Himself was baptized (see Matthew 3:13-17). true

Many people have lived on the earth who never heard of the gospel of Jesus Christ and who were not baptized. true Others lived without fully understanding the importance of the ordinance of baptism. Still others were baptized, but without proper authority. true

Because He is a loving God, the Lord does not damn those people who, through no fault of their own, never had the opportunity for baptism. He has therefore authorized baptisms to be performed by proxy for them. this I don't agree. A living person, often a descendant who has become a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is baptized in behalf of a deceased person. this I don't agree. This work is done by Church members in temples throughout the world.

Some people have misunderstood that when baptisms for the dead are performed, deceased persons are baptized into the Church against their will. the dead cant really choose. This is not the case. Each individual has agency, or the right to choose. The validity of a baptism for the dead depends on the deceased person accepting it and choosing to accept and follow the Savior while residing in the spirit world. don't tell me you are going to use a medium to determine if the dead person accepts or not. The names of deceased persons are not added to the membership records of the Church. ok they are not members of the LDS, just proxy baptism for them "to be saved"

View More

Scripture References
Malachi 4:5-6

John 5:25

1 Peter 4:6

3 Nephi 25:5-6 (disclaimer - don't know this)

Doctrine and Covenants 124:93 (disclaimer - don't know this)

I will come up with my analysis on the matter later.

Again, thank you for your thoroughness and reading actual source material. Clarifying on a few points--
--No, there aren't any mediums or anything like that. Christ is the Judge, not us.
--LDS do believe that the spirit lives on when a person physically dies. This spirit can still make choices (they are alive after all). The spirit will later be reunited with a physical body during the resurrection.
--Again, LDS do NOT believe having a baptism of any type does automatically ensure salvation at all.

 

[MJFlores]

Scripture references used by LDS to support Baptism for the Dead

Malachi 4:5-6

“See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.”

John 5:25

Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

1 Peter 4:6

For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

My comments on the use of the scripture references

Malachi 4:5-6 – talks about the Day of the Lord and the sending of the prophet Elijah before that day. Its about the total destruction. If the phrase to support Baptism for the Dead is on:

He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents

It fails to support it. There is nothing here to support Baptism for the Dead.

John 5:25 – Jesus said “…time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God…” This one refers to judgment day and to be sure of this, we should read further:

John 5:27-30 New International Version (NIV)
And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

These words really convey the Day of Judgment. And it also convey that the Lord Jesus is the Son of Man. Here he said: By himself, he can do nothing and he wants to please who sent him – this is one of the proofs that the Lord Jesus Christ is not God but he was sent by God. John 5:25 is about the resurrection of the dead – everybody will rise from the dead – those who done good, will live and those who done evil will be condemned.

By those words, even when you baptize by proxy (for a dead person) – if he has done evil, he will still be condemned. So what is the use?

Definitely the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God:

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

1 Peter 4:6 – says “For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead…” It did not say baptize does it? But how can you preach the gospel to the dead as the bible says?

The dead is no longer breathing or hearing and no longer have a part under the sun. What does it mean - preached even to those who are now dead? In the Church of Christ (Iglesia ni Cristo) we do not interpret the bible – the bible interprets itself. Let us check the other verses in the bible to define and identify – who are now dead (who must be preached about the gospel)

Matthew 8:22 But Jesus told him, “Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead.”

How can the dead bury their own dead? Is it possible? Yes it is – the Lord Jesus just stated a fact.

Jude 12 New International Version (NIV)

These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead.

This people are the false teachers and the bible describes them as “twice dead”

1 Timothy 5:6New International Version (NIV)

But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives.

This is about a widow – she loves life’s pleasures how is she termed? Dead even alive.

Colossians 2:13New International Version (NIV)

When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

People who are in their sins are termed as DEAD.

Ephesians 5:13-15New International Version (NIV)

But everything exposed by the light becomes visible—and everything that is illuminated becomes a light. This is why it is said:

“Wake up, sleeper,

rise from the dead,

and Christ will shine on you.”

Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise,

People who are in the dark are urged to what? Rise from the DEAD.

Ephesians 2:1-2New International Version (NIV)

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Again it is repeated: People who are in your transgressions and sins are DEAD.

Therefore – there are literal dead and biblical dead – twice dead and dead.

Biblical dead still have the chance to repent, wake up and rise from the dead while literal dead are done for – as we can read in the bible:

Psalm 115:17 New International Version (NIV)

It is not the dead who praise the Lord,

those who go down to the place of silence;

Isaiah 38:18 New International Version (NIV)

For the grave cannot praise you,

death cannot sing your praise;

those who go down to the pit

cannot hope for your faithfulness.

CONCLUSION:
I think Baptism for the Dead is unscriptural.
It appears as the doctrine of the Mormon church.
When people die, they are no longer capable of singing praise to God
and already at the mercy of God whether he is going to live or be condemned
therefore with that Baptism for the Dead is useless

Baptism requires you have to be there personally to be immersed John 3:23

Even if we exhume the dead and baptize the dead, there is another requirement
Baptism requires the person to believe and repent Acts 2:38
These things are missing in the Baptism for the Dead

 

[Jane_Doe]

What a thorough response! I'll break my reply down into pieces.

Malachi 4:5-6 – talks about the Day of the Lord and the sending of the prophet Elijah before that day. Its about the total destruction. If the phrase to support Baptism for the Dead is on:

He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents

It fails to support it. There is nothing here to support Baptism for the Dead.

Baptisms for the dead is the children turning their hearts to their forefathers and serving them (hearts turning towards them). The forefathers look to their children with thankfulness and joy (hearts turning to them).


(Answering this from the LDS point of view) From here onward I think you might be getting a couple of different trains of thought mixed up here. There are two deaths, physical and spiritual. Christ will redeem everyone from the physical death, and those which believe (at the time of the Final Judgement) from spiritual death. Touching specifically on a few of the verse you're hitting on:
---John 5:25, speaks of the dead hearing the Son of God. This specifically comes before the Final Judgement which is talked about in later verses.

These words really convey the Day of Judgment. And it also convey that the Lord Jesus is the Son of Man. Here he said: By himself, he can do nothing and he wants to please who sent him – this is one of the proofs that the Lord Jesus Christ is not God but he was sent by God. John 5:25 is about the resurrection of the dead – everybody will rise from the dead – those who done good, will live and those who done evil will be condemned.

By those words, even when you baptize by proxy (for a dead person) – if he has done evil, he will still be condemned. So what is the use?

No soul which repents is condemned! That's the marvelous power of the atonement! It does not matter when a person repents and joins the work of the vineyard, but the fact that they came, whenever it was (see the parable of the workers in the vineyard).

Remember: baptisms for the dead are for those whom did not have the opportunity to hear His voice in this life-- any wrong doing they would have committed during this life was done in ignorance to His words for they had not heard them.

Definitely the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God:

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

1 Peter 4:6 – says “For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead…”

Agreed.

It did not say baptize does it?

Baptism is required of all believers (John 3:3-7).

But how can you preach the gospel to the dead as the bible says?

That is the work Christ set up. We living people are not those doing the preaching.

View attachment 193797
The dead is no longer breathing or hearing and no longer have a part under the sun. What does it mean - preached even to those who are now dead? In the Church of Christ (Iglesia ni Cristo) we do not interpret the bible – the bible interprets itself. Let us check the other verses in the bible to define and identify – who are now dead (who must be preached about the gospel)

(An aside: I do enjoy hearing you speak about your faith and explain it)

Matthew 8:22 But Jesus told him, “Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead.”

This is speaking about people whom have heard the Word and rejected it-- in more colloquial terms it'll be "let them lay in the bed they made for themselves". It is not speaking of those whom have not heard the Words of Christ (which is what LDS are discussing for baptisms of the dead).

 

[Jane_Doe]

Jude 12 New International Version (NIV)

These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead.

This people are the false teachers and the bible describes them as “twice dead”

1 Timothy 5:6New International Version (NIV)

But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives.

This is about a widow – she loves life’s pleasures how is she termed? Dead even alive.
View attachment 193793
Colossians 2:13New International Version (NIV)

When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

People who are in their sins are termed as DEAD.

Ephesians 5:13-15New International Version (NIV)

But everything exposed by the light becomes visible—and everything that is illuminated becomes a light. This is why it is said:

“Wake up, sleeper,

rise from the dead,

and Christ will shine on you.”

Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise,

People who are in the dark are urged to what? Rise from the DEAD.

Ephesians 2:1-2New International Version (NIV)

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Again it is repeated: People who are in your transgressions and sins are DEAD.

Therefore – there are literal dead and biblical dead – twice dead and dead.

Biblical dead still have the chance to repent, wake up and rise from the dead while literal dead are done for – as we can read in the bible:
View attachment 193794
Psalm 115:17 New International Version (NIV)

It is not the dead who praise the Lord,

those who go down to the place of silence;

View attachment 193795

Isaiah 38:18 New International Version (NIV)

For the grave cannot praise you,

death cannot sing your praise;

those who go down to the pit

The verses you're quoting and discussing here are speaking of the spiritual death, not the physical one. LDS baptisms for the dead are for the *physically* dead.

Baptism requires you have to be there personally to be immersed John 3:23

How do you draw that conclusion from this verse? How about with 1 Corinthians 15:29?

CONCLUSION:
I think Baptism for the Dead is unscriptural.
It appears as the doctrine of the Mormon church.
When people die, they are no longer capable of singing praise to God
and already at the mercy of God whether he is going to live or be condemned
therefore with that Baptism for the Dead is useless

I respect your belief in that regard, even if I don't share it.

Even if we exhume the dead and baptize the dead

LDS do *NOT* do any such thing. LDS baptisms for the dead are done via proxy and don't involve any corpses (that's just gross).

Baptism requires the person to believe and repent Acts 2:38
These things are missing in the Baptism for the Dead

100% Agreed that belief and repentance is required for salvation. These are a critical part of LDS view on baptism for the dead: a person's spirit MUST believe and repent in order for any baptism to have any effect. Any baptism done when a person refuses to believe and repent is for nothing.




I'm curious MJFlores: what is your belief about the fate of a person who dies never having heard the word of God?

 

[MJFlores]

I'm curious MJFlores: what is your belief about the fate of a person who dies never having heard the word of God?

I don't have a personal belief about the fate of a person who dies and never heard the word of God.

However the bible has this to say:

Romans 2:12-16 New International Version (NIV)

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I don't have a personal belief about the fate of a person who dies and never heard the word of God.

View attachment 193940
However the bible has this to say:

Romans 2:12-16 New International Version (NIV)

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

View attachment 193941

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
View attachment 193942

This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

I'm sorry, I'm not quite following your post. Are you saying that you believe that those whom have never heard of Christ are supposed to follow it anyways?

 

[MJFlores]

I'm sorry, I'm not quite following your post. Are you saying that you believe that those whom have never heard of Christ are supposed to follow it anyways?

Let me change the version of the bible - Easy To Read version. In red are my comments as inserted.

Romans 2:12-16 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

People who have the law and those who have never heard of the law are all the same when they sin. The Jews have the law don't they? When they break the law, it is sin. The Mesoamericans like the Incas, the Apache and others do not have the law do they? Whatever they have and break it, it is sin. People who don’t have the law and are sinners will be lost. And, in the same way, those who have the law and are sinners will be judged by the law. The Mormons still have the Bible, don't you? You will be judged by the Bible. Hearing the law does not make people right with God. They will be right before him only if they always do what the law says. The law is written on the bible and we will be judged what the bible says.

Those who are not Jews don’t have the law. But when they naturally do what the law commands without even knowing the law, then they are their own law. The Pagans do not have the law but they have their own laws. I'm sure there are things common with God's law and natural laws like "Do unto others what you want others to do unto you." Even pagan China would know those, as well as the Aztecs, Mayans and Incas. This is true even though they don’t have the written law. They show that in their hearts they know what is right and wrong, the same as the law commands, and their consciences agree. As I have said and they have this God given consciences like we do which... Sometimes their thoughts tell them that they have done wrong, and this makes them guilty. And sometimes their thoughts tell them that they have done right, and this makes them not guilty.

All this will happen on the day when God will judge people’s secret thoughts through Jesus Christ. This is part of the Good News that I tell everyone. And that is how God would judge people who never heard of Him, his Son Jesus Christ and the Bible. Will they pass the judgement of God? I don't know. Everyone sinned and no one is righteous, according to the Bible.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Let me change the version of the bible - Easy To Read version. In red are my comments as inserted.

View attachment 193970

Romans 2:12-16 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

People who have the law and those who have never heard of the law are all the same when they sin. The Jews have the law don't they? When they break the law, it is sin. The Mesoamericans like the Incas, the Apache and others do not have the law do they? Whatever they have and break it, it is sin. People who don’t have the law and are sinners will be lost. And, in the same way, those who have the law and are sinners will be judged by the law. The Mormons still have the Bible, don't you? You will be judged by the Bible. Hearing the law does not make people right with God. They will be right before him only if they always do what the law says. The law is written on the bible and we will be judged what the bible says.

Those who are not Jews don’t have the law. But when they naturally do what the law commands without even knowing the law, then they are their own law. The Pagans do not have the law but they have their own laws. I'm sure there are things common with God's law and natural laws like "Do unto others what you want others to do unto you." Even pagan China would know those, as well as the Aztecs, Mayans and Incas. This is true even though they don’t have the written law. They show that in their hearts they know what is right and wrong, the same as the law commands, and their consciences agree. As I have said and they have this God given consciences like we do which... Sometimes their thoughts tell them that they have done wrong, and this makes them guilty. And sometimes their thoughts tell them that they have done right, and this makes them not guilty.

All this will happen on the day when God will judge people’s secret thoughts through Jesus Christ. This is part of the Good News that I tell everyone. And that is how God would judge people who never heard of Him, his Son Jesus Christ and the Bible. Will they pass the judgement of God? I don't know. Everyone sinned and no one is righteous, according to the Bible.

But how is a person who's never heard of Christ suppose to accept Him?

 

[MJFlores]

But how is a person who's never heard of Christ suppose to accept Him?

There were 3 brothers from China, Bu, Chu and Fu.
They lived in the 1800's. They never seen even the covers of the bible. Never had electricity, even toilets are not popular in China then. TV and radio are not popular then. It's the 1800's. The brothers died.
How will they be judged by God?

1. They don't know who the Lord Jesus is.
2. They weren't devout Buddhist.
3. They only know how to survive everyday.
4. They know what is good and bad.
5. They have consciences too.

Romans 2:15-16 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

They show that in their hearts they know what is right and wrong, the same as the law commands, and their consciences agree.

Sometimes their thoughts tell them that they have done wrong, and this makes them guilty.

And sometimes their thoughts tell them that they have done right, and this makes them not guilty.

All this will happen on the day when God will judge people’s secret thoughts through Jesus Christ. This is part of the Good News that I tell everyone.

 

[Jane_Doe]

View attachment 193995

There were 3 brothers from China, Bu, Chu and Fu.
They lived in the 1800's. They never seen even the covers of the bible. Never had electricity, even toilets are not popular in China then. TV and radio are not popular then. It's the 1800's. The brothers died.
How will they be judged by God?

1. They don't know who the Lord Jesus is.
2. They weren't devout Buddhist.
3. They only know how to survive everyday.
4. They know what is good and bad.
5. They have consciences too.

Romans 2:15-16 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

They show that in their hearts they know what is right and wrong, the same as the law commands, and their consciences agree.
View attachment 193999
Sometimes their thoughts tell them that they have done wrong, and this makes them guilty.
View attachment 194001
And sometimes their thoughts tell them that they have done right, and this makes them not guilty.
View attachment 194000
All this will happen on the day when God will judge people’s secret thoughts through Jesus Christ. This is part of the Good News that I tell everyone.

Of course Bu, Chu and Fu were sinners! Along with every good Buddhist, good Christian, and bad Christian. We ALL sin. The difference is that we as Christians have the opportunity to be redeemed of our sins by accept Christ. Are Bu, Chu and Fu to suffer forever because they never had that opportunity?

 

[MJFlores]

Of course Bu, Chu and Fu were sinners! Along with every good Buddhist, good Christian, and bad Christian. We ALL sin. The difference is that we as Christians have the opportunity to be redeemed of our sins by accept Christ. Are Bu, Chu and Fu to suffer forever because they never had that opportunity?

God will be the judge of that.

Well the 3 brothers decided to go to America.
But before that they have to Americanize their names so it would not be hard for Americans to call them.
So they arrived at San Francisco and the immigration officer ask what their new names would be.

Bu said he should be named as Buck

Chu said he's Chuck

While Fu went back to China.

 

[Jane_Doe]

God will be the judge of that.

So essentially you don't know, but just trust in Christ?