LCMS Evolution, Age of Universe

[J_B_]

Both

As cosmology purports, the nature of the universe was very fluid early on - time included. My personal opinion is that the 6 days, while truthful, is God's way of relating the story to little children who couldn't hope to understand the full picture. In other words, had we been with God during the creation, we would have perceived it as 6 days. But now, looking back, the traces of the past have been distorted such that it appears to be billions.

On the flip side, amateur historians lack an appreciation of the difficulty of dating ancient genealogies such that, while it may not be billions, the Biblical genealogy very possibly represents a much longer time period than YEC is willing to accept.

 

[FaithT]

As cosmology purports, the nature of the universe was very fluid early on - time included. My personal opinion is that the 6 days, while truthful, is God's way of relating the story to little children who couldn't hope to understand the full picture. In other words, had we been with God during the creation, we would have perceived it as 6 days. But now, looking back, the traces of the past have been distorted such that it appears to be billions.

On the flip side, amateur historians lack an appreciation of the difficulty of dating ancient genealogies such that, while it may not be billions, the Biblical genealogy very possibly represents a much longer time period than YEC is willing to accept.

Food for thought.

 

[FaithT]

Well. It may come down to how important of a matter the LCMS church feels that evolution is. Many churches have a variety of positions, and people don't view it as a salvation issue and it's just not particularly important.

But if you have a pastor that routinely preaches on the subject, and you don't agree with what the pastor says, then I'm not sure what could be done about that. Some protestant churches care about that subject, others do not. Some are against it, some are for it etc.

And oftentimes I would think it would be hard to agree 100% on complicated topics with everyone. So it may depend on how important that topic is to you, or to the church.

It's not so much that I want the LCMS to change it's position as I'd like it to be phrased a different way.



I believe God created all that exists, that he creates and sustains life, and that he established the order of creation. But I disagree with significant portions of thought among the YEC, OEC, etc.

What portions of thought among the YEC and OEC do you disagree with?

 

[Job 33:6]

What portions of thought among the YEC and OEC do you disagree with?

OEC and YEC groups suffer from the same hermeneutical issue of scientific concordism. They believe that the Bible ought to express modern scientific ideas. For example, in science, we know that earth is roughly 4.56 billion years old. Hugh Ross, an OEC, might argue that Genesis describes an earth that is billions of years old, or that the Bible describes evolution when it talks about different animals being made each day.

YEC of course comes with its own issues. It suffers from countless contradictions in its YEC science and believers the Bible says strange things about dinosaurs being vegetarian, or about vapor canopies exploding during the flood.

But the Bible and science do not align with either position. OECs will never be able to find millions of years hidden in Genesis. And YECs will never find evidence of their vapor canopies or flood geology.

The simple solution is that scientific concordism is incorrect, ie, the Bible is not a science textbook. Genesis was written thousands of years before the age of the earth and evolution were ever discovered. So we shouldn't expect the Bible to describe these concepts. There are not millions of years in Genesis because millions of years hadn't been discovered. There are no dinosaurs in the Bible either, leviathan is a multi-headed fire breathing chaos sea god:

On that day the Lord with his cruel and great and strong sword will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Leviathan the twisting serpent, and he will kill the dragon that is in the sea.
Isaiah 27:1 NRSV

By his power he stilled the Sea; by his understanding he struck down Rahab. By his wind the heavens were made fair; his hand pierced the fleeing serpent.
Job 26:12‭-‬13 NRSV

Any hope of capturing it will be disappointed; were not even the gods overwhelmed at the sight of it? From its mouth go flaming torches; sparks of fire leap out. Its breath kindles coals, and a flame comes out of its mouth. When it raises itself up the gods are afraid; at the crashing they are beside themselves.
Job 41:9‭, ‬19‭, ‬21‭, ‬25 NRSV

You crushed the heads of Leviathan; you gave him as food for the creatures of the wilderness. You cut openings for springs and torrents; you dried up ever-flowing streams. Yours is the day, yours also the night; you established the luminaries and the sun. You have fixed all the bounds of the earth; you made summer and winter.
Psalms 74:14‭-‬17 NRSV

You rule the raging of the sea; when its waves rise, you still them. You crushed Rahab like a carcass; you scattered your enemies with your mighty arm.
Psalms 89:9‭-‬10 NRSV

There was never any vapor canopy exploding during the flood. In fact, after the flood the psalmist talks about the heavenly waters above as if they are sustained forever and ever.

Praise him, highest heavens, and waters above the heavens. Let them praise the name of Yahweh, because he commanded and they were created. And he put them in place forever and ever, by a decree he gave that will not pass away.
Psalms 148:4‭-‬6

And ultimately, what we see in Genesis is something known as ancient near east cosmology. A common view held by ancient people's of the region around ancient Isreal, Egypt, Babylon, mesopotamia etc.

And the 7 days of Genesis was a common poetic means of describing a cosmic temple Inauguration.

Evidence for the cosmic temple understanding of Genesis:
And you shall not go outside the entrance of the tent of meeting for seven days, until the days of your ordination are completed, for it will take seven days to ordain you.
Leviticus 8:33

temple priest ordination in 7 days.

And in the eleventh year, in the month of Bul, which is the eighth month, the house was finished in all its parts, and according to all its specifications. He was seven years in building it.
1 Kings 6:38

The Temple constructed in 7 years.

And all the men of Israel assembled to King Solomon at the feast in the month Ethanim, which is the seventh month.
1 Kings 8:2

Inauguration feast on the 7th month.

So Solomon held the feast at that time, and all Israel with him, a great assembly, from Lebo-hamath to the Brook of Egypt, before the Lord our God, seven days.
1 Kings 8:65 ESV

Temple inauguration feast on the 7th day.

temple dedicated to God on the 7th day of the 7th month, after 7 years, and what does God do?

And I will dwell among the Israelites, and I will not forsake my people Israel.”
1 Kings 6:13 LEB

God rests/dwells.

genesis 1 split into 7 days to recognize the action of God taking presence in his temple. Kind of like a ceremony on which God prepares creation for His rulership.


- In the first month of the second year, on the first of the month, the tabernacle was set up.
1. And Moses raised the tabernacle, and he placed its bases, and he set up its frames, and he placed its bars, and he raised its pillars. And he spread the tent over the tabernacle; he placed the covering of the tent over it, above it, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
2. And he took and he put the testimony into the ark, and he placed the poles on the ark, and he put the atonement cover on the ark, above it. And he brought the ark into the tabernacle, and he set up the curtain of the screening, and he shielded the ark of the testimony, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
3. And he put the table in the tent of assembly on the north side of the tabernacle outside the curtain. And he arranged on it an arrangement of bread before Yahweh, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
4. And he placed the lampstand in the tent of assembly opposite the table on the south side of the tabernacle. And he set up the lamps before Yahweh, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
5. And he placed the gold altar in the tent of assembly before the curtain. And he turned fragrant incense into smoke on it, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
6. And he set up the entrance screen for the tabernacle. And the altar of burnt offering he placed at the entrance of the tabernacle of the tent of assembly, and he offered on it the burnt offering and the grain offering, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
7. And he placed the basin between the tent of assembly and the altar, and he put there water for washing. And Moses and Aaron and his sons washed their hands and their feet from it. At their going into the tent of assembly and at their approaching the altar, they washed, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
-. And he set up the courtyard all around the tabernacle and the altar, and he put up the screen of the gate of the courtyard, and Moses completed the work.
Exodus 40:17‭-‬33 LEB

Let us go to his dwelling places; Let us worship at his footstool. Arise, O Yahweh, to your resting place, you and your mighty ark. For Yahweh has chosen Zion; he has desired it for his habitation. “This is my resting place forever; here I will dwell, for I have desired it.
Psalms 132:7‭-‬8‭, ‬13‭-‬14

God rests/dwells^

and the gold of that land is good; bdellium and onyx stone are there.
Genesis 2:12

This is the offering that you shall receive from them: gold, silver, and bronze,
Exodus 25:3

onyx stones and gems to be set in the ephod and for the breastpiece.
Exodus 25:7

He drove out the man; and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim, and a sword flaming and turning to guard the way to the tree of life.
Genesis 3:24

You shall make two cherubim of gold; you shall make them of hammered work, at the two ends of the mercy seat.
Exodus 25:18

So God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it, because on it God rested from all the work that he had done in creation.
Genesis 2:3

You shall keep the sabbath, because it is holy for you; everyone who profanes it shall be put to death; whoever does any work on it shall be cut off from among the people.
Exodus 31:14

*God blessed them*, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.” *God saw* everything that he had made and, *behold*, it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning, a sixth day.
Genesis 1:31 LEB

And *Moses saw* all the work, and *behold*, they had done it; as the Lord had commanded, so had they done it. Then *Moses blessed them*.
Exodus 39:43 ESV

Ancient Near east examples of temple texts:

He adorns Her with the covering of Her flesh.
She tears Her clothing.
On the second day
He adorns Her in the two rivers.
She sets a pot on the fire
A vessel on top of the coals.

Behold a day and a second,
The fire eats into the house,
The flame into the palace.
A fifth, a sixth day,
The fire eats into the house,
The flame in the midst of the palace.
Behold, on the seventh day,
The fire departs from the house,
The flame from the palace.
Silver turns from blocks,
Gold is turned from bricks.

baal cycle 7-day temple

House of the anuna gods possessing great power, which gives wisdom to the people, house, reposeful dwelling of the great gods! House, which was planned together with a plans of heaven and Earth. House which underpins the Land and supports the shrines! -Sumerian Temple Hymn of Kes.

Also see, the gudea cylinders with a 7 day cosmic temple text dated 2100BC.

Here are a few John Walton Lectures for more details:

Dr. Miche Heisers popular unseen realm documentary:

Ben Stanhopes leviathan video:

 

[Job 33:6]

Yep. I've never felt it was that important of an issue to the LCMS.



In my experience with the LCMS it's never the pastor who brings it up. It's always a question from a lay person. My brother-in-law is an LCMS pastor, and he once asked me (with a little frustration) if I had any suggestions on how to deal with questions about evolution. How do you bring the discussion back to where it needs to be? To Christ?



Again, yep. I agree.

I think that part of the reason people find it complicated, is because usually I would guess it is atheists trying to weaponize it against God or against creation.

Just my opinion but, in history there were people who tried to weaponize a spherical earth and an ancient earth against the Bible and against God as well. And for those other topics, the solution was to analyze the subject scientifically. And if credible, then investigate our hermeneutical approach to see if it's something that scripture is compatible with. Then let scripture resolve the subject.

So for the age of the earth, nobody finds billions of years described in Genesis, but that hasn't stopped 99% of Christians from believing the Bible even though they believe earth is old. Typically because people are comfortable with the idea that there is poetry and chants, and culture, and there is art in the Bible. It's ok that the Bible doesn't describe billions of years because people are usually comfortable reading Genesis with the understanding that it's not a science textbook.

Same with the shape of the earth. There are verses that describe the circle of the earth, and earth resting on pillars.

He has described a *circle* on the face of the water between light and darkness. *“The pillars of heaven* tremble, and they are astounded at his rebuke.
Job 26:10‭-‬11

So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
Joshua 10:13

It is he who sits above the *circle* of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;
Isaiah 40:22

“Where were you at my laying the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you possess understanding. Who determined its measurement? Yes, you do know. Or who stretched the measuring line upon it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:4‭-‬6

The earth and all its inhabitants are shaking; I steady its columns. Selah
Psalms 75:3

For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And he hath set the world upon them.
1 Samuel 2:8

and in the 1500s the church argued for geocentrism and a flat earth.

but when we learned that earth was a sphere, it didn't result in people losing faith in God or the Bible. People just became aware that it wasn't describing science.

and so that would be the approach I would suggest with a topic like evolution. To simply help people understand that the Bible is not a description of science. It's a book of theology and a book about purpose and meaning in life. It's about how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go.

 

[Job 33:6]

OEC and YEC groups suffer from the same hermeneutical issue of scientific concordism. They believe that the Bible ought to express modern scientific ideas. For example, in science, we know that earth is roughly 4.56 billion years old. Hugh Ross, an OEC, might argue that Genesis describes an earth that is billions of years old, or that the Bible describes evolution when it talks about different animals being made each day.

YEC of course comes with its own issues. It suffers from countless contradictions in its YEC science and believers the Bible says strange things about dinosaurs being vegetarian, or about vapor canopies exploding during the flood.

But the Bible and science do not align with either position. OECs will never be able to find millions of years hidden in Genesis. And YECs will never find evidence of their vapor canopies or flood geology.

The simple solution is that scientific concordism is incorrect, ie, the Bible is not a science textbook. Genesis was written thousands of years before the age of the earth and evolution were ever discovered. So we shouldn't expect the Bible to describe these concepts. There are not millions of years in Genesis because millions of years hadn't been discovered. There are no dinosaurs in the Bible either, leviathan is a multi-headed fire breathing chaos sea god:

On that day the Lord with his cruel and great and strong sword will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Leviathan the twisting serpent, and he will kill the dragon that is in the sea.
Isaiah 27:1 NRSV

By his power he stilled the Sea; by his understanding he struck down Rahab. By his wind the heavens were made fair; his hand pierced the fleeing serpent.
Job 26:12‭-‬13 NRSV

Any hope of capturing it will be disappointed; were not even the gods overwhelmed at the sight of it? From its mouth go flaming torches; sparks of fire leap out. Its breath kindles coals, and a flame comes out of its mouth. When it raises itself up the gods are afraid; at the crashing they are beside themselves.
Job 41:9‭, ‬19‭, ‬21‭, ‬25 NRSV

You crushed the heads of Leviathan; you gave him as food for the creatures of the wilderness. You cut openings for springs and torrents; you dried up ever-flowing streams. Yours is the day, yours also the night; you established the luminaries and the sun. You have fixed all the bounds of the earth; you made summer and winter.
Psalms 74:14‭-‬17 NRSV

You rule the raging of the sea; when its waves rise, you still them. You crushed Rahab like a carcass; you scattered your enemies with your mighty arm.
Psalms 89:9‭-‬10 NRSV

There was never any vapor canopy exploding during the flood. In fact, after the flood the psalmist talks about the heavenly waters above as if they are sustained forever and ever.

Praise him, highest heavens, and waters above the heavens. Let them praise the name of Yahweh, because he commanded and they were created. And he put them in place forever and ever, by a decree he gave that will not pass away.
Psalms 148:4‭-‬6

And ultimately, what we see in Genesis is something known as ancient near east cosmology. A common view held by ancient people's of the region around ancient Isreal, Egypt, Babylon, mesopotamia etc.

And the 7 days of Genesis was a common poetic means of describing a cosmic temple Inauguration.

Evidence for the cosmic temple understanding of Genesis:
And you shall not go outside the entrance of the tent of meeting for seven days, until the days of your ordination are completed, for it will take seven days to ordain you.
Leviticus 8:33

temple priest ordination in 7 days.

And in the eleventh year, in the month of Bul, which is the eighth month, the house was finished in all its parts, and according to all its specifications. He was seven years in building it.
1 Kings 6:38

The Temple constructed in 7 years.

And all the men of Israel assembled to King Solomon at the feast in the month Ethanim, which is the seventh month.
1 Kings 8:2

Inauguration feast on the 7th month.

So Solomon held the feast at that time, and all Israel with him, a great assembly, from Lebo-hamath to the Brook of Egypt, before the Lord our God, seven days.
1 Kings 8:65 ESV

Temple inauguration feast on the 7th day.

temple dedicated to God on the 7th day of the 7th month, after 7 years, and what does God do?

And I will dwell among the Israelites, and I will not forsake my people Israel.”
1 Kings 6:13 LEB

God rests/dwells.

genesis 1 split into 7 days to recognize the action of God taking presence in his temple. Kind of like a ceremony on which God prepares creation for His rulership.


- In the first month of the second year, on the first of the month, the tabernacle was set up.
1. And Moses raised the tabernacle, and he placed its bases, and he set up its frames, and he placed its bars, and he raised its pillars. And he spread the tent over the tabernacle; he placed the covering of the tent over it, above it, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
2. And he took and he put the testimony into the ark, and he placed the poles on the ark, and he put the atonement cover on the ark, above it. And he brought the ark into the tabernacle, and he set up the curtain of the screening, and he shielded the ark of the testimony, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
3. And he put the table in the tent of assembly on the north side of the tabernacle outside the curtain. And he arranged on it an arrangement of bread before Yahweh, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
4. And he placed the lampstand in the tent of assembly opposite the table on the south side of the tabernacle. And he set up the lamps before Yahweh, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
5. And he placed the gold altar in the tent of assembly before the curtain. And he turned fragrant incense into smoke on it, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
6. And he set up the entrance screen for the tabernacle. And the altar of burnt offering he placed at the entrance of the tabernacle of the tent of assembly, and he offered on it the burnt offering and the grain offering, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
7. And he placed the basin between the tent of assembly and the altar, and he put there water for washing. And Moses and Aaron and his sons washed their hands and their feet from it. At their going into the tent of assembly and at their approaching the altar, they washed, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
-. And he set up the courtyard all around the tabernacle and the altar, and he put up the screen of the gate of the courtyard, and Moses completed the work.
Exodus 40:17‭-‬33 LEB

Let us go to his dwelling places; Let us worship at his footstool. Arise, O Yahweh, to your resting place, you and your mighty ark. For Yahweh has chosen Zion; he has desired it for his habitation. “This is my resting place forever; here I will dwell, for I have desired it.
Psalms 132:7‭-‬8‭, ‬13‭-‬14

God rests/dwells^

and the gold of that land is good; bdellium and onyx stone are there.
Genesis 2:12

This is the offering that you shall receive from them: gold, silver, and bronze,
Exodus 25:3

onyx stones and gems to be set in the ephod and for the breastpiece.
Exodus 25:7

He drove out the man; and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim, and a sword flaming and turning to guard the way to the tree of life.
Genesis 3:24

You shall make two cherubim of gold; you shall make them of hammered work, at the two ends of the mercy seat.
Exodus 25:18

So God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it, because on it God rested from all the work that he had done in creation.
Genesis 2:3

You shall keep the sabbath, because it is holy for you; everyone who profanes it shall be put to death; whoever does any work on it shall be cut off from among the people.
Exodus 31:14

*God blessed them*, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.” *God saw* everything that he had made and, *behold*, it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning, a sixth day.
Genesis 1:31 LEB

And *Moses saw* all the work, and *behold*, they had done it; as the Lord had commanded, so had they done it. Then *Moses blessed them*.
Exodus 39:43 ESV

Ancient Near east examples of temple texts:

He adorns Her with the covering of Her flesh.
She tears Her clothing.
On the second day
He adorns Her in the two rivers.
She sets a pot on the fire
A vessel on top of the coals.

Behold a day and a second,
The fire eats into the house,
The flame into the palace.
A fifth, a sixth day,
The fire eats into the house,
The flame in the midst of the palace.
Behold, on the seventh day,
The fire departs from the house,
The flame from the palace.
Silver turns from blocks,
Gold is turned from bricks.

baal cycle 7-day temple

House of the anuna gods possessing great power, which gives wisdom to the people, house, reposeful dwelling of the great gods! House, which was planned together with a plans of heaven and Earth. House which underpins the Land and supports the shrines! -Sumerian Temple Hymn of Kes.

Also see, the gudea cylinders with a 7 day cosmic temple text dated 2100BC.

Here are a few John Walton Lectures for more details:

Dr. Miche Heisers popular unseen realm documentary:

Ben Stanhopes leviathan video:

And I would call this, not OEC or YEC, I would call this an ANE, or ancient near east, interpretation of scripture.

 

[J_B_]

... people are usually comfortable reading Genesis with the understanding that it's not a science textbook.

Sure, but I'm always looking for balance so I caution people not to use that as an excuse to say the Bible is only poetry. One can express truth about the age of the earth without getting scientific. For example, God could have said, "The earth is very old." Or, with respect to evolution, God could have said, "Fish became lizards." But he didn't. That thought should give one pause.

On the flip side, I caution people not to equate science with "Truth" in some philosophical sense. Science is always incomplete, always provisional, as all human knowledge is. Yet it is still useful ... and pretty cool sometimes.

 

[J_B_]

And I would call this, not OEC or YEC, I would call this an ANE, or ancient near east, interpretation of scripture.

Reading the Bible from within the cultural context of which it was written is a worthwhile exercise. It adds a lot. I will point out, though, a literary analysis of the Psalms done by C.S. Lewis (Reflections on the Psalms) that points out the amazing universality of much of the Biblical text.

 

[J_B_]

What portions of thought among the YEC and OEC do you disagree with?

That could use a long reply, but I'll start with just 2 points:
* With respect to OEC, I think they walk themselves toward turning the Bible into either a series of warm, fuzzy spiritual poems or a treatise on morality. Both lose Christ. It is very important to keep Christianity rooted in history and remember Christ is God and God is the Creator. I didn't spend a lot of time pondering Job's response, so I can't say he's guilty of that, but I have seen it from people who say similar things: see posts #47 and #48 (I tried linking them, but something went wrong).

* With respect to YEC, they too often conflate science and revelation. The Bible is God's Word; it is Truth. But science is not (nor is history), so we shouldn't expect we can prove God's Word with science, history, etc. That makes an approach to apologetics from a scientific perspective problematic. Evolution does have theological implications I can't accept, but if you want to engage with biologists on a scientific level, then do science the right way.

 

[FaithT]

That could use a long reply, but I'll start with just 2 points:
* With respect to OEC, I think they walk themselves toward turning the Bible into either a series of warm, fuzzy spiritual poems or a treatise on morality. Both lose Christ. It is very important to keep Christianity rooted in history and remember Christ is God and God is the Creator. I didn't spend a lot of time pondering Job's response, so I can't say he's guilty of that, but I have seen it from people who say similar things: see posts #47 and #48 (I tried linking them, but something went wrong).

* With respect to YEC, they too often conflate science and revelation. The Bible is God's Word; it is Truth. But science is not (nor is history), so we shouldn't expect we can prove God's Word with science, history, etc. That makes an approach to apologetics from a scientific perspective problematic. Evolution does have theological implications I can't accept, but if you want to engage with biologists on a scientific level, then do science the right way.

I’m sorry, but I‘m still not clear understanding on if you think the world is 6,000:years old or a billion years old ; also am not getting a clear understanding on if you believe in evolution or creationism.

 

[Job 33:6]

Sure, but I'm always looking for balance so I caution people not to use that as an excuse to say the Bible is only poetry. One can express truth about the age of the earth without getting scientific. For example, God could have said, "The earth is very old." Or, with respect to evolution, God could have said, "Fish became lizards." But he didn't. That thought should give one pause.

On the flip side, I caution people not to equate science with "Truth" in some philosophical sense. Science is always incomplete, always provisional, as all human knowledge is. Yet it is still useful ... and pretty cool sometimes.

I think that this would continue to assume that it was God's intent to convey modern scientific ideas, if God were to say such a thing in the Bible. Whether said in a technical manner, or said in a simple manner, the ancient age of the earth is a modern scientific idea. And so to expect such a statement is to assume that it was God's interest to talk about Earth's age.

The same goes with Earth's shape, which, we have passages about earth being like a circle on the face of the waters or a circle of the earth. Or geocentrism, with verses about earth resting on pillars.

If it were God's intent to reveal 21st century science, we would find verses about earth orbiting the sun or verses about earth being like a ball or sphere, or there being objects upside down held up by gravity on the opposite side of the earth. Etc.

If it were God's intent to convey modern science, it would be quite apparent. And with this not being apparent, we ought not to expect the ancient age of the earth to be described in the Bible, either. Same with evolution.

And it wouldn't mean that the Bible is all poetry. Ancient authors may also have perceived of pre scientific ideas, such as the solid dome raqia of the Bible. Or perhaps a flat earth. Much like early church fathers did. In which case, God might allow people's culture to be described in scripture along side other ancient cultural ideas and thoughts, such as animal sacrifice, or odd things like beliefs in satyrs and onocentaurs of Isaiah. Or even just cultural things such as speaking in Hebrew, the language of the old testament, which is an ancient language that we don't use today. At least not us personally.

 

[J_B_]

I think that this would continue to assume that it was God's intent to convey modern scientific ideas, if God were to say such a thing in the Bible. Whether said in a technical manner, or said in a simple manner, the ancient age of the earth is a modern scientific idea. And so to expect such a statement is to assume that it was God's interest to talk about Earth's age.

The same goes with Earth's shape, which, we have passages about earth being like a circle on the face of the waters or a circle of the earth. Or geocentrism, with verses about earth resting on pillars.

If it were God's intent to reveal 21st century science, we would find verses about earth orbiting the sun or verses about earth being like a ball or sphere, or there being objects upside down held up by gravity on the opposite side of the earth. Etc.

If it were God's intent to convey modern science, it would be quite apparent. And with this not being apparent, we ought not to expect the ancient age of the earth to be described in the Bible, either. Same with evolution.

And it wouldn't mean that the Bible is all poetry. Ancient authors may also have perceived of pre scientific ideas, such as the solid dome raqia of the Bible. Or perhaps a flat earth. Much like early church fathers did. In which case, God might allow people's culture to be described in scripture along side other ancient cultural ideas and thoughts, such as animal sacrifice, or odd things like beliefs in satyrs and onocentaurs of Isaiah. Or even just cultural things such as speaking in Hebrew, the language of the old testament, which is an ancient language that we don't use today. At least not us personally.

It doesn't matter if some ancients never considered the earth a sphere. Some did, e.g. Aristotle. And even those who didn't think it a sphere, were thinking about it's shape. Further, it doesn't matter if man knew anything about anything. My point didn't regard what men discovered on their own, but what God revealed to them.

To try to make such a point implies you don't think the Bible is inspired.

 

[J_B_]

I’m sorry, but I‘m still not clear understanding on if you think the world is 6,000:years old or a billion years old

I don't think God ever revealed the world's age. I don't think man yet has the capacity to discover it. Therefore, my answer is: we don't know the correct age. I would bet BOTH 6000 years and 14 billion years are wrong.

also am not getting a clear understanding on if you believe in evolution or creationism.

I don't know what you think those words (evolution, creationism) mean. We would need to discuss their definitions.

Evolution is not one simple idea, but a collection of many ideas. Therefore, among those ideas I accept changes in allele frequency and reject LUCA.

As I said before, I believe God created everything, including life, with a direct act. I don't attach to that claims to know the age of the earth, etc. Would you consider that creationism?

 

[Job 33:6]

It doesn't matter if some ancients never considered the earth a sphere. Some did, e.g. Aristotle. And even those who didn't think it a sphere, were thinking about it's shape. Further, it doesn't matter if man knew anything about anything. My point didn't regard what men discovered on their own, but what God revealed to them.

To try to make such a point implies you don't think the Bible is inspired.

A. Aristotle lived many hundreds of years after Genesis was written. Aristotle lived somewhere around 300-400BC. Genesis dates back to at least 1200BC, so we are 1,000 years too late. Ie Aristotle isn't ancient enough.
B. Some things in the Bible were simply experienced by inspired people, and allowed to be written about, or not written about. Even if they weren't always accurate or correctly articulated.

1 Samuel 13:1 for example:
The NRSV reads: "Saul was ... [The number is lacking in he Hebrew text (the verse is lacking in the Septuagint] years old when he began to reign; and he reigned...and two [two is not the entire number] years over isreal.

And you could go through 10 different translations and they would all say different things because God allowed there to be missing words in the Septuagint.

We can also look at the opposite, of added verses:
The book of Job is longer in the masoritic text than it is in the Greek Septuagint.
The book of Esther is longer in the Greek Septuagint than it is in the masoritic text.
The book of Jeremiah has a different order of text between the masoritic text and the Greek Septuagint.

And these are what we use for modern day translations. So God allowed our Bibles to be written with translations that vary in length as translations tend to be made of combinations of these older texts.

Another example, Joshua 8:30-35. This group of verses is found in different places depending on the source text. The masoritic text has them in chapter 8. The dead sea scrolls has them in chapter 5. The Greek Septuagint has them in chapter 9.

Sometimes you even get entirely unique narratives that contradict other narratives in scripture:
Example:

Then there was another battle with the Philistines at Gob; and Elhanan son of Jaare-oregim, the Bethlehemite, killed Goliath the Gittite [of Gath], the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.
2 Samuel 21:19

And there came out from the camp of the Philistines a champion named Goliath, of Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span. The shaft of his spear was like a weaver's beam, and his spear's head weighed six hundred shekels of iron; and his shield-bearer went before him.
1 Samuel 17:4‭, ‬7 NRSV

To giants named Goliath. Both from gath and both with a spear like a weavers beam.

Well wait a minute. They can't both kill Goliath. So this is often considered a scribal error.

So here God has allowed scribal errors.

Adding text. Removing text. Swapping text around. Putting text in various orders. Sometimes making grammatical errors. And these issues occur not only in modern translations, but also in the oldest texts and manuscripts of the Bible that we have, dead sea scrolls, masoritic text, Septuagint and more.

Other oddities of culture:
My soul will rejoice when your lips speak what is right.
Proverbs 23:16 NRSV
My inmost being will exult when your lips speak what is right.
Proverbs 23:16 ESV
Yes, my heart will rejoice When your lips speak right things.
Proverbs 23:16 AMP

Inmost being, heart or soul?

The original Hebrew word is "kidneys". Well what do our kidneys have to do with anything?

Well, in ancient times, before people understood the brain as the central unit of the nervous system, people though emotions came from our guy somewhere, perhaps on the kidneys. Ancient Egyptians would preserve organs of our stomach and would throw out the brain for this reason.

2. for he was still in the loins of his ancestor when Melchizedek met him.
Hebrews 7:10 NRSV

He was in his loins? Well before people knew that babies were formed of both male and female gametes, people thought men alone carried children.

3. Aside from the more obvious ones, such as the sky being a solid dome:
can you join him in spreading out the skies, *hard* as a mirror of cast bronze?
Job 37:18

To him who spread out the earth above the waters, for his loyal love endures forever.
Psalms 136:6

Let's look at some more verses on the raqia:
And God said, “Let there be a *dome* in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
Genesis 1:6

God made the *dome*, and separated the waters which were below the dome from the waters which were above the dome; and it was so. God called the dome heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
Genesis 1:7‭-‬8

And God said, “Let there be lights in the *dome* of the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years,
Genesis 1:14

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the *windows of the heavens were opened.*
Genesis 7:11

the fountains of the deep and the *windows of the heavens were closed*, the rain from the heavens was restrained,
Genesis 8:2

And God said, “Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the *dome* of the sky.”
Genesis 1:20

And he dreamed that there was a ladder set up on the earth, the top of it reaching to heaven; and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. And the Lord stood beside him [or stood above it] and said, “I am the Lord, the God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and to your offspring;
Genesis 28:12‭-‬13

“You shall not make for yourself a divine image with any form that is in the heavens above or that is in the earth below or that is in the water below the earth.
Exodus 20:4

and they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there was something like a *pavement of sapphire stone*, like the very heaven for clearness.
Exodus 24:10

He has described a *circle* on the face of the water between light and darkness. *“The pillars of heaven* tremble, and they are astounded at his rebuke.
Job 26:10‭-‬11

Can you, like him, spread out the skies, *hard* as a molten mirror?
Job 37:18

Hast thou with him spread out the sky, Which is *strong*, and as a molten looking glass?
Job 37:18

can you join him in spreading out the skies, *hard* as a mirror of cast bronze?
Job 37:18

So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
Joshua 10:13

Yet in all the world their line goes out, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has pitched a tent for the sun,
Psalms 19:4

To him who spread out the *earth above the waters*, for his loyal love endures forever.
Psalms 136:6

Praise him, highest heavens, and *waters above the heavens*. Let them praise the name of Yahweh, because he commanded and they were created. And he put them in place *forever and ever*, by a decree he gave that will not pass away.
Psalms 148:4‭-‬6

Praise Yah. Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his *mighty firmament*.
Psalms 150:1

and all the host of heaven shall rot. And the skies shall roll up like a scroll, and all their host shall wither like the withering of a leaf from a vine, or like the withering from a fig tree.
Isaiah 34:4

It is he who sits above the *circle* of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;
Isaiah 40:22

Over the heads of the angels there was something like a dome, shining like crystal, spread out above their heads.
Ezekiel 1:22

And above the *dome* over their heads there was something like a throne, in appearance like sapphire stone; and seated above the likeness of a throne was something that seemed like a human form.
Ezekiel 1:26

And I looked, and look! On the *dome* that was above the head of the cherubim something like a stone of sapphire, and like the appearance of the shape of a throne it appeared above them.
Ezekiel 10:1

He made strong the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
Proverbs 8:28-‬29

The sky vanished like a scroll rolling itself up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
Revelation 6:14

he will wind a winding tightly around you like a ball, to a wide land. There you shall die, and there the chariots of your splendor will be, disgrace to your master’s house!
Isaiah 22:18
(notice that the word "ball" is used here, so when the Bible talks about the circle upon the face of the deep (Isaiah 40:22 or Job 26:10, it could have described earth as a ball if the author intended such meaning, but they didnt).

“Where were you at my laying the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you possess understanding. Who determined its measurement? Yes, you do know. Or who stretched the measuring line upon it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:4‭-‬6

The earth and all its inhabitants are shaking; I steady its columns. Selah
Psalms 75:3

For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And he hath set the world upon them.
1 Samuel 2:8

-------

All this aside, this doesn't mean that all of scripture is not God breathes or inspired. It just means that God allowed inspired people to have a role in generating the text, and sometimes those human experiences and ideas come out on the text in various ways. God simply allowed it to happen.

And no, God doesnt have to reveal all of scripture as if to write the Bible himself. People in the Bible can write about things they experienced in everyday life:
There was a man in Maon, whose property was in Carmel. The man was very rich; he had three thousand sheep and a thousand goats. He was shearing his sheep in Carmel.
1 Samuel 25:2 NRSV

Now the name of the man was Nabal, and the name of his wife Abigail. The woman was clever and beautiful, but the man was surly and mean; he was a Calebite. David heard in the wilderness that Nabal was shearing his sheep.
1 Samuel 25:3‭-‬4 NRSV

God didn't reveal money to the man in Maon. Nor did God reveal sheep to the man in Moan. These are simply details of a larger inspired text. But they are firmly set in the culture and time of those people. God allowed the Biblical author to talk about his experience. David heard, David experienced something.

 

[Job 33:6]

A. Aristotle lived many hundreds of years after Genesis was written. Aristotle lived somewhere around 300-400BC. Genesis dates back to at least 1200BC, so we are 1,000 years too late. Ie Aristotle isn't ancient enough by a long shot.
B. Some things in the Bible, were not revealed. Some were simply experienced by inspired people, and allowed to be written about, or not written about.

1 Samuel 13:1 for example:
The NRSV reads: "Saul was ... [The number is lacking in he Hebrew text (the verse is lacking in the Septuagint] years old when he began to reign; and he reigned...and two [two is not the entire number] years over isreal.

And you could go through 10 different translations and they would all say different things because God allowed there to be missing words in the Septuagint.

We can also look at the opposite, of added verses:
The book of Job is longer in the masoritic text than it is in the Greek Septuagint.
The book of Esther is longer in the Greek Septuagint than it is in the masoritic text.
The book of Jeremiah has a different order of text between the masoritic text and the Greek Septuagint.

And these are what we use for modern day translations. So God allowed our Bibles to be written with translations that vary in length as translations tend to be made of combinations of these older texts.

Another example, Joshua 8:30-35. This group of verses is found in different places depending on the source text. The masoritic text has them in chapter 8. The dead sea scrolls has them in chapter 5. The Greek Septuagint has them in chapter 9.

Sometimes you even get entirely unique narratives that contradict other narratives in scripture:
Example:

Then there was another battle with the Philistines at Gob; and Elhanan son of Jaare-oregim, the Bethlehemite, killed Goliath the Gittite [of Gath], the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.
2 Samuel 21:19

And there came out from the camp of the Philistines a champion named Goliath, of Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span. The shaft of his spear was like a weaver's beam, and his spear's head weighed six hundred shekels of iron; and his shield-bearer went before him.
1 Samuel 17:4‭, ‬7 NRSV

To giants named Goliath. Both from gath and both with a spear like a weavers beam.

Well wait a minute. They can't both kill Goliath. So this is often considered a scribal error.

So here God has allowed scribal errors.

Adding text. Removing text. Swapping text around. Putting text in various orders. Sometimes making grammatical errors. And these issues occur not only in modern translations, but also in the oldest texts and manuscripts of the Bible that we have, dead sea scrolls, masoritic text, Septuagint and more.

Other oddities of culture:
My soul will rejoice when your lips speak what is right.
Proverbs 23:16 NRSV
My inmost being will exult when your lips speak what is right.
Proverbs 23:16 ESV
Yes, my heart will rejoice When your lips speak right things.
Proverbs 23:16 AMP

Inmost being, heart or soul?

The original Hebrew word is "kidneys". Well what do our kidneys have to do with anything?

Well, in ancient times, before people understood the brain as the central unit of the nervous system, people though emotions came from our guy somewhere, perhaps on the kidneys. Ancient Egyptians would preserve organs of our stomach and would throw out the brain for this reason.

2. for he was still in the loins of his ancestor when Melchizedek met him.
Hebrews 7:10 NRSV

He was in his loins? Well before people knew that babies were formed of both male and female gametes, people thought men alone carried children.

3. Aside from the more obvious ones, such as the sky being a solid dome:
can you join him in spreading out the skies, *hard* as a mirror of cast bronze?
Job 37:18

To him who spread out the earth above the waters, for his loyal love endures forever.
Psalms 136:6

Let's look at some more verses on the raqia:
And God said, “Let there be a *dome* in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
Genesis 1:6

God made the *dome*, and separated the waters which were below the dome from the waters which were above the dome; and it was so. God called the dome heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
Genesis 1:7‭-‬8

And God said, “Let there be lights in the *dome* of the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years,
Genesis 1:14

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the *windows of the heavens were opened.*
Genesis 7:11

the fountains of the deep and the *windows of the heavens were closed*, the rain from the heavens was restrained,
Genesis 8:2

And God said, “Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the *dome* of the sky.”
Genesis 1:20

And he dreamed that there was a ladder set up on the earth, the top of it reaching to heaven; and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. And the Lord stood beside him [or stood above it] and said, “I am the Lord, the God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and to your offspring;
Genesis 28:12‭-‬13

“You shall not make for yourself a divine image with any form that is in the heavens above or that is in the earth below or that is in the water below the earth.
Exodus 20:4

and they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there was something like a *pavement of sapphire stone*, like the very heaven for clearness.
Exodus 24:10

He has described a *circle* on the face of the water between light and darkness. *“The pillars of heaven* tremble, and they are astounded at his rebuke.
Job 26:10‭-‬11

Can you, like him, spread out the skies, *hard* as a molten mirror?
Job 37:18

Hast thou with him spread out the sky, Which is *strong*, and as a molten looking glass?
Job 37:18

can you join him in spreading out the skies, *hard* as a mirror of cast bronze?
Job 37:18

So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
Joshua 10:13

Yet in all the world their line goes out, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has pitched a tent for the sun,
Psalms 19:4

To him who spread out the *earth above the waters*, for his loyal love endures forever.
Psalms 136:6

Praise him, highest heavens, and *waters above the heavens*. Let them praise the name of Yahweh, because he commanded and they were created. And he put them in place *forever and ever*, by a decree he gave that will not pass away.
Psalms 148:4‭-‬6

Praise Yah. Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his *mighty firmament*.
Psalms 150:1

and all the host of heaven shall rot. And the skies shall roll up like a scroll, and all their host shall wither like the withering of a leaf from a vine, or like the withering from a fig tree.
Isaiah 34:4

It is he who sits above the *circle* of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;
Isaiah 40:22

Over the heads of the angels there was something like a dome, shining like crystal, spread out above their heads.
Ezekiel 1:22

And above the *dome* over their heads there was something like a throne, in appearance like sapphire stone; and seated above the likeness of a throne was something that seemed like a human form.
Ezekiel 1:26

And I looked, and look! On the *dome* that was above the head of the cherubim something like a stone of sapphire, and like the appearance of the shape of a throne it appeared above them.
Ezekiel 10:1

He made strong the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
Proverbs 8:28-‬29

The sky vanished like a scroll rolling itself up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
Revelation 6:14

he will wind a winding tightly around you like a ball, to a wide land. There you shall die, and there the chariots of your splendor will be, disgrace to your master’s house!
Isaiah 22:18
(notice that the word "ball" is used here, so when the Bible talks about the circle upon the face of the deep (Isaiah 40:22 or Job 26:10, it could have described earth as a ball if the author intended such meaning, but they didnt).

“Where were you at my laying the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you possess understanding. Who determined its measurement? Yes, you do know. Or who stretched the measuring line upon it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:4‭-‬6

The earth and all its inhabitants are shaking; I steady its columns. Selah
Psalms 75:3

For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And he hath set the world upon them.
1 Samuel 2:8

-------

All this aside, this doesn't mean that all of scripture is not God breathes or inspired. It just means that God allowed inspired people to have a role in generating the text, and sometimes those human experiences and ideas come out on the text in various ways. God simply allowed it to happen.

And no, God doesnt have to reveal all of scripture as if to write the Bible himself. People in the Bible can write about things they experienced in everyday life:
There was a man in Maon, whose property was in Carmel. The man was very rich; he had three thousand sheep and a thousand goats. He was shearing his sheep in Carmel.
1 Samuel 25:2 NRSV

Now the name of the man was Nabal, and the name of his wife Abigail. The woman was clever and beautiful, but the man was surly and mean; he was a Calebite. David heard in the wilderness that Nabal was shearing his sheep.
1 Samuel 25:3‭-‬4 NRSV

God didn't reveal money to the man in Maon. Nor did God reveal sheep to the man in Moan. These are simply details of a larger inspired text. But they are firmly set in the culture and time of those people. God allowed the Biblical author to talk about his experience. David heard, David experienced something.

There's nothing in the Bible that says that God would have corrected or advanced the scientific brains of the authors prior to allowing them to write the Bible as inspired people. Just as God allowed other minor human errors in the text.

 

[Job 33:6]

Reading the Bible from within the cultural context of which it was written is a worthwhile exercise. It adds a lot. I will point out, though, a literary analysis of the Psalms done by C.S. Lewis (Reflections on the Psalms) that points out the amazing universality of much of the Biblical text.

I think these kinds of things are great. But I would just stress that the universality and value it has to all people of all time, would not necessarily mean that the ancient people were pulled out of their culture with respect to topics of science.

Everyone is ok with animal sacrifices. Oh that's just how their culture was.
When an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox shall be stoned, and its flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall not be liable.
Exodus 21:28

Well that's just ancient culture.

When a slaveowner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner's property.
Exodus 21:20‭-‬21

Well that's just ancient cultures.

For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and consecrated it.
Exodus 20:11

Wait a minute! That's not ancient culture! It's talking about 21st century geology and the age of the earth and darwinism!

Um, no.

The whole 7 day subject has nothing to do with Earth's age and everything to do with temple construction such as with the Tabernacle made in 7 stages or Solomons temple made in 7 years, completed on the 7th month with a 7 day inauguration feast.

 

[Job 33:6]

I think these kinds of things are great. But I would just stress that the universality and value it has to all people of all time, would not necessarily mean that the ancient people were pulled out of their culture with respect to topics of science.

Everyone is ok with animal sacrifices. Oh that's just how their culture was.
When an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox shall be stoned, and its flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall not be liable.
Exodus 21:28

Well that's just ancient culture.

When a slaveowner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner's property.
Exodus 21:20‭-‬21

Well that's just ancient cultures.

For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and consecrated it.
Exodus 20:11

Wait a minute! That's not ancient culture! It's talking about 21st century geology and the age of the earth and darwinism!

Um, no.

The whole 7 day subject has nothing to do with Earth's age and everything to do with temple construction such as with the Tabernacle made in 7 stages or Solomons temple made in 7 years, completed on the 7th month with a 7 day inauguration feast.

One more example:

The dead tremble under the waters and their inhabitants.

Ancient cosmology/poetry

Sheol is naked before God, and Abaddon has no covering.

Ancient cosmology/poetry

He stretches out the north over the void and hangs the earth on nothing.

Wait a minute! That's talking about a spherical earth floating in space like 21st century astronomy!

He binds up the waters in his thick clouds, and the cloud is not split open under them.

Ancient cosmology/poetry

He covers the face of the full moon and spreads over it his cloud.

Ancient cosmology/poetry

He has inscribed a circle on the face of the waters at the boundary between light and darkness.

The pillars of heaven tremble and are astounded at his rebuke.

Ancient cosmology/poetry

By his power he stilled the sea; by his understanding he shattered Rahab [the leviathan]. By his wind the heavens were made fair; his hand pierced the fleeing serpent [the leviathan]
Job 26:5‭-‬13 ESV

Ancient cosmology/poetry


One of these things is not like the others. Rather than reading the text in context, people believe that the Bible must be scientifically modern and cannot contain pre scientific ideas. Therefore *insert anachronism* into the Bible where the Bible says no such thing.

In context it's just talking about Tohu above and below the earth, as per ANE cosmology.

As if God would secretly insert 21st century science into the ancient text where no one of that ancient age would have had any clue what the Bible meant for thousands of years, until coincidentally we just so happen to now know what it means, thanks to modern science.

And then 500 years into the future, future scientifically enlightened people will say that we misunderstood the text and that they now know it. And so on and so forth. All the while we progressively move away from the original ancient meaning of the text.

But if we simply let the text remain in its historic context, we find a simple and easy, and rational, solution to the entire evolution and age of the earth debate.

Regarding the passages in Job, it's not that the context switches from ancient cosmology to 21st century cosmology and then back to ancient cosmology.. Rather the context remains the same and we simply read that one passage as if it was written to us in the 21st century. Even though it has nothing to do with Earth floating in space or astronomy.


And then people become uncomfortable with pre-scientific ideas in the Bible and then push back and argue that 21st century science is in the Bible even though it doesn't make any sense that it would be. As if God had hidden 21st century science into the ancient text that people would only discover thousands of years after it was written. In this results in some obvious issues with people thinking that the Earth is 6,000 years old. Or some people think that the Earth is actually flat. Because they can't come to grips with the simple conclusion that the context is ancient and not modern

And with respect to science, the Bible never actually says anything at all that we would consider to be "modern". It never says anything about genetics or earth being shaped like a sphere. It never says anything about exoplanets or the chemistry of the sun or moon. It never says anything about microbiology or quantum physics. It never talks about gravity or how far away stars are.


The Bible never says anything that we would consider "scientifically modern". Because it was written and understood through an ancient pre-scientific lense. And so people shouldn't confuse earth being created in 7 days with some sort of scientific prophetic revelation. Because it has nothing to do with science.

 

[FaithT]

I don't think God ever revealed the world's age. I don't think man yet has the capacity to discover it. Therefore, my answer is: we don't know the correct age. I would bet BOTH 6000 years and 14 billion years are wrong.



I don't know what you think those words (evolution, creationism) mean. We would need to discuss their definitions.

Evolution is not one simple idea, but a collection of many ideas. Therefore, among those ideas I accept changes in allele frequency and reject LUCA.

As I said before, I believe God created everything, including life, with a direct act. I don't attach to that claims to know the age of the earth, etc. Would you consider that creationism?

By evolution, specifically I mean dinosaurs eventually evolving into birds, apes into humans etc.

 

[J_B_]

A. Aristotle lived many hundreds of years after Genesis was written. Aristotle lived somewhere around 300-400BC. Genesis dates back to at least 1200BC, so we are 1,000 years too late. Ie Aristotle isn't ancient enough.
B. Some things in the Bible were simply experienced by inspired people, and allowed to be written about, or not written about. Even if they weren't always accurate or correctly articulated.

1 Samuel 13:1 for example:
The NRSV reads: "Saul was ... [The number is lacking in he Hebrew text (the verse is lacking in the Septuagint] years old when he began to reign; and he reigned...and two [two is not the entire number] years over isreal.

And you could go through 10 different translations and they would all say different things because God allowed there to be missing words in the Septuagint.

We can also look at the opposite, of added verses:
The book of Job is longer in the masoritic text than it is in the Greek Septuagint.
The book of Esther is longer in the Greek Septuagint than it is in the masoritic text.
The book of Jeremiah has a different order of text between the masoritic text and the Greek Septuagint.

And these are what we use for modern day translations. So God allowed our Bibles to be written with translations that vary in length as translations tend to be made of combinations of these older texts.

Another example, Joshua 8:30-35. This group of verses is found in different places depending on the source text. The masoritic text has them in chapter 8. The dead sea scrolls has them in chapter 5. The Greek Septuagint has them in chapter 9.

Sometimes you even get entirely unique narratives that contradict other narratives in scripture:
Example:

Then there was another battle with the Philistines at Gob; and Elhanan son of Jaare-oregim, the Bethlehemite, killed Goliath the Gittite [of Gath], the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.
2 Samuel 21:19

And there came out from the camp of the Philistines a champion named Goliath, of Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span. The shaft of his spear was like a weaver's beam, and his spear's head weighed six hundred shekels of iron; and his shield-bearer went before him.
1 Samuel 17:4‭, ‬7 NRSV

To giants named Goliath. Both from gath and both with a spear like a weavers beam.

Well wait a minute. They can't both kill Goliath. So this is often considered a scribal error.

So here God has allowed scribal errors.

Adding text. Removing text. Swapping text around. Putting text in various orders. Sometimes making grammatical errors. And these issues occur not only in modern translations, but also in the oldest texts and manuscripts of the Bible that we have, dead sea scrolls, masoritic text, Septuagint and more.

Other oddities of culture:
My soul will rejoice when your lips speak what is right.
Proverbs 23:16 NRSV
My inmost being will exult when your lips speak what is right.
Proverbs 23:16 ESV
Yes, my heart will rejoice When your lips speak right things.
Proverbs 23:16 AMP

Inmost being, heart or soul?

The original Hebrew word is "kidneys". Well what do our kidneys have to do with anything?

Well, in ancient times, before people understood the brain as the central unit of the nervous system, people though emotions came from our guy somewhere, perhaps on the kidneys. Ancient Egyptians would preserve organs of our stomach and would throw out the brain for this reason.

2. for he was still in the loins of his ancestor when Melchizedek met him.
Hebrews 7:10 NRSV

He was in his loins? Well before people knew that babies were formed of both male and female gametes, people thought men alone carried children.

3. Aside from the more obvious ones, such as the sky being a solid dome:
can you join him in spreading out the skies, *hard* as a mirror of cast bronze?
Job 37:18

To him who spread out the earth above the waters, for his loyal love endures forever.
Psalms 136:6

Let's look at some more verses on the raqia:
And God said, “Let there be a *dome* in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
Genesis 1:6

God made the *dome*, and separated the waters which were below the dome from the waters which were above the dome; and it was so. God called the dome heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
Genesis 1:7‭-‬8

And God said, “Let there be lights in the *dome* of the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years,
Genesis 1:14

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the *windows of the heavens were opened.*
Genesis 7:11

the fountains of the deep and the *windows of the heavens were closed*, the rain from the heavens was restrained,
Genesis 8:2

And God said, “Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the *dome* of the sky.”
Genesis 1:20

And he dreamed that there was a ladder set up on the earth, the top of it reaching to heaven; and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. And the Lord stood beside him [or stood above it] and said, “I am the Lord, the God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and to your offspring;
Genesis 28:12‭-‬13

“You shall not make for yourself a divine image with any form that is in the heavens above or that is in the earth below or that is in the water below the earth.
Exodus 20:4

and they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there was something like a *pavement of sapphire stone*, like the very heaven for clearness.
Exodus 24:10

He has described a *circle* on the face of the water between light and darkness. *“The pillars of heaven* tremble, and they are astounded at his rebuke.
Job 26:10‭-‬11

Can you, like him, spread out the skies, *hard* as a molten mirror?
Job 37:18

Hast thou with him spread out the sky, Which is *strong*, and as a molten looking glass?
Job 37:18

can you join him in spreading out the skies, *hard* as a mirror of cast bronze?
Job 37:18

So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
Joshua 10:13

Yet in all the world their line goes out, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has pitched a tent for the sun,
Psalms 19:4

To him who spread out the *earth above the waters*, for his loyal love endures forever.
Psalms 136:6

Praise him, highest heavens, and *waters above the heavens*. Let them praise the name of Yahweh, because he commanded and they were created. And he put them in place *forever and ever*, by a decree he gave that will not pass away.
Psalms 148:4‭-‬6

Praise Yah. Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his *mighty firmament*.
Psalms 150:1

and all the host of heaven shall rot. And the skies shall roll up like a scroll, and all their host shall wither like the withering of a leaf from a vine, or like the withering from a fig tree.
Isaiah 34:4

It is he who sits above the *circle* of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;
Isaiah 40:22

Over the heads of the angels there was something like a dome, shining like crystal, spread out above their heads.
Ezekiel 1:22

And above the *dome* over their heads there was something like a throne, in appearance like sapphire stone; and seated above the likeness of a throne was something that seemed like a human form.
Ezekiel 1:26

And I looked, and look! On the *dome* that was above the head of the cherubim something like a stone of sapphire, and like the appearance of the shape of a throne it appeared above them.
Ezekiel 10:1

He made strong the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
Proverbs 8:28-‬29

The sky vanished like a scroll rolling itself up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
Revelation 6:14

he will wind a winding tightly around you like a ball, to a wide land. There you shall die, and there the chariots of your splendor will be, disgrace to your master’s house!
Isaiah 22:18
(notice that the word "ball" is used here, so when the Bible talks about the circle upon the face of the deep (Isaiah 40:22 or Job 26:10, it could have described earth as a ball if the author intended such meaning, but they didnt).

“Where were you at my laying the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you possess understanding. Who determined its measurement? Yes, you do know. Or who stretched the measuring line upon it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:4‭-‬6

The earth and all its inhabitants are shaking; I steady its columns. Selah
Psalms 75:3

For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And he hath set the world upon them.
1 Samuel 2:8

-------

All this aside, this doesn't mean that all of scripture is not God breathes or inspired. It just means that God allowed inspired people to have a role in generating the text, and sometimes those human experiences and ideas come out on the text in various ways. God simply allowed it to happen.

And no, God doesnt have to reveal all of scripture as if to write the Bible himself. People in the Bible can write about things they experienced in everyday life:
There was a man in Maon, whose property was in Carmel. The man was very rich; he had three thousand sheep and a thousand goats. He was shearing his sheep in Carmel.
1 Samuel 25:2 NRSV

Now the name of the man was Nabal, and the name of his wife Abigail. The woman was clever and beautiful, but the man was surly and mean; he was a Calebite. David heard in the wilderness that Nabal was shearing his sheep.
1 Samuel 25:3‭-‬4 NRSV

God didn't reveal money to the man in Maon. Nor did God reveal sheep to the man in Moan. These are simply details of a larger inspired text. But they are firmly set in the culture and time of those people. God allowed the Biblical author to talk about his experience. David heard, David experienced something.

Context. Perspective. Providence ... Allegory. Idiom. Rhetoric. I think these things could be better appreciated, especially with respect to the Bible. I think current culture is trying to elevate science to the pinnacle of Truth when it is better understood as a companion of history and rhetoric with none rising above the other, and truth is better understood in light of perception and revelation.

Truth can be conveyed through poetry even though poetry is neither literal nor scientific. Even I, who accept a round earth and the heliocentric model of the solar system, will look out across a flat field of flowers and speak of how, from my perspective, I viewed the rising sun. And other people who know of a round earth and heliocentric solar system understand me ... until "Bible" enters the conversation. Then we must invoke ancient cosmology as if we know exactly what Abraham, Moses, and David (and every other ancient person who ever lived) believed about such things.

I have studied such questions as: What did the Romans believe about gods? In brief, it's complex. Some believed Zeus was real, some faked their belief, some openly expressed disbelief. Even among those who believed in the gods, they didn't necessarily believe everything written about them, but thought much of it just stories - stories used to explain a Zeus-like quality, etc. You will further find that many current ideas of earth, stars, evolution, and so forth are very ancient. They were not as rigorously constructed as current science, but the ideas were there. Ancient peoples were very intelligent - maybe more intelligent than we are, and they had the capacity to understand much more than they are given credit for by amateur historians.

But suppose, for example, David did believe in a flat, fixed earth about which the sun moved. Then for David to express that view in the Bible is Truth, and the Bible is being truthful to say so. For that to be David's belief in no way diminishes the inerrant quality of the Bible, but rather supports it as inerrant. Nor is it an error for God to speak to David using idioms he understands. Given that David, in his time, could not perceive the curvature of the earth and could not perceive the motion of the earth, it is not an error to speak to David in terms of what he has perceived. In essence it is simply a use of David's language to communicate with him (somewhat of an oversimplification to make a point that we can't fault God for speaking to David in David's language and not ours). Likewise, you have never perceived the curvature of the earth or perceived its motion. You've been told and shown it by others. It was revealed to you, and that is the only means by which you know it. To say such things are an error is to misunderstand all the allegory, idiom, and rhetoric of the Bible, forms of language that we still use every single day - forms of language that are used by scientists.

God didn't reveal heliocentrism to David because it would have been a distraction from the message he needed to hear. God works with us as we are - flaws and all. If our errors need to be corrected for us to understand, God corrects us. Surely you don't think the Bible indicates a God that shrinks from correction when it is necessary. That doesn't mean the message God gave to David, as written in the Bible, has errors.

But of course it's possible to distort the Bible - for error to creep in. Even then there is a spectrum of errors. If God wants us to know Christ rose from the dead, then a scribal error that changes the actual "Christ is risen!" that Peter said to "Christ has risen!" is irrelevant. It doesn't change the message. And the vast majority of errors in the Bible are scribal errors. Most of the remaining issues people claim as error simply reveal their poor understanding of God's Word.

But indeed, God's Word can be distorted beyond recognition. Thomas Jefferson's Bible would be an example. In that case, the distortion is so extreme that we must say it is no longer God's Word. Between the ESV, that I accept as God's Word, the Living Bible, and the Jefferson Bible, it's hard to draw an exact line. It's easy for me to say the ESV is God's Word and the Jefferson Bible isn't. The Living Bible is harder, though I lean toward saying it is so heterodox as to be of little value.

The summary, then, is that you diverge from what I know of ancient history, science, and God's Word. It definitely doesn't fit a Confessional Lutheran view, which is what this forum is about. Therefore, I think we should leave it at that.

 

[J_B_]

By evolution, specifically I mean dinosaurs eventually evolving into birds, apes into humans etc.

You refer, then, to the origin of species - something that was central to Darwinism, but is not included in the modern definition of Evolution. Evolution is currently defined as the change in allele frequencies of a population.

"Change in allele frequency" means that children have a different DNA sequence than their parents. "Population" refers to a group of organisms that can interbreed and produce fertile offspring. That is not possible between species.

Of course descent with modification, and thereby the origin of new species as a consequence of evolution, is accepted by biologists. But I want to make clear it is an inductive conclusion from the process of evolution, and is not included in the definition of evolution itself. It is a very important distinction to understand, as I said near the beginning of this thread. And it does get confusing as biology works with both the field of Evolutionary Biology and the mechanism of Evolution, and is lax about keeping those two things separate. Again, it's not a fatal problem. My own field has similar problems.

Why is that important? Because grasping that distinction means biologists must accept the possibility that life had multiple origins. In fact, most biologists now accept that there were multiple origins. What they conclude, however, is that all of those origin events either merged or died out such that there is a point in history where a single population can be identified (LUCA) from which all currently existing life evolved.

Why do they conclude that? It's not an unreasonable conclusion, but at the same time it's a pretty weak position. In fact, some biologists have started to challenge that conclusion, which I find very exciting.