LCMS Evolution, Age of Universe

[J_B_]

No, I have a very trustworthy pastor, but in Catholicism, they have the freedom to believe in evolution or not. In the LCMS it’s taught that macroevolution doesn’t occur.

Yes, that is essentially the position of the LCMS.

However, you're misusing the term "macroevolution". Macroevolution and microevolution as most creationists use them are not scientific terms, and the LCMS statement never references macroevolution. I'm pointing this out because what the LCMS statement does is clarify their disagreement in that they don't accept undirected speciation. They don't make a blanket statement that dismisses all of evolutionary biology, but specify their points of disagreement. I have good reason to question biology's position on UCA myself.

Many biologists would say that evolution doesn't stipulate undirected speciation, yet as many times as they have said it, the public perception remains that evolution says exactly that. That's why this conversation gets so messy.

Regardless, accepting the LCMS position on evolution is not a condition of membership. So why is this so difficult for you? I would bet there are other things you think or do that conflict with the LCMS position, whether it's speeding, jaywalking, drinking a little too much, saying "Jeez" when you're frustrated, or whatever it might be. Why focus on this one?

All of your posts seem focused on legalism - what can I do? what can't I do? - rather than the grace which makes you a forgiven child of God. I don't mean to make you feel guilty by saying that. Rather it pains me that these things seem to block you from the joy of knowing Christ.

"Catholic guilt" is a joke I hear often from my Catholic friends.

 

[Job 33:6]

I’m losing my mind over these endless questionsI have…..my husband has been going to church with me lately even though he doesn’t believe as the LCMS does. There’s no way I could get him to become Catholic, though I don’t want to go back to Catholicism either. I just don’t know what to do bc I love my church but I think macroevolution might be factual.

Well. It may come down to how important of a matter the LCMS church feels that evolution is. Many churches have a variety of positions, and people don't view it as a salvation issue and it's just not particularly important.

But if you have a pastor that routinely preaches on the subject, and you don't agree with what the pastor says, then I'm not sure what could be done about that. Some protestant churches care about that subject, others do not. Some are against it, some are for it etc.

And oftentimes I would think it would be hard to agree 100% on complicated topics with everyone. So it may depend on how important that topic is to you, or to the church.

 

[FaithT]

Yes, that is essentially the position of the LCMS.

However, you're misusing the term "macroevolution". Macroevolution and microevolution as most creationists use them are not scientific terms, and the LCMS statement never references macroevolution. I'm pointing this out because what the LCMS statement does is clarify their disagreement in that they don't accept undirected speciation. They don't make a blanket statement that dismisses all of evolutionary biology, but specify their points of disagreement. I have good reason to question biology's position on UCA myself.

Many biologists would say that evolution doesn't stipulate undirected speciation, yet as many times as they have said it, the public perception remains that evolution says exactly that. That's why this conversation gets so messy.

Regardless, accepting the LCMS position on evolution is not a condition of membership. So why is this so difficult for you? I would bet there are other things you think or do that conflict with the LCMS position, whether it's speeding, jaywalking, drinking a little too much, saying "Jeez" when you're frustrated, or whatever it might be. Why focus on this one?

All of your posts seem focused on legalism - what can I do? what can't I do? - rather than the grace which makes you a forgiven child of God. I don't mean to make you feel guilty by saying that. Rather it pains me that these things seem to block you from the joy of knowing Christ.

"Catholic guilt" is a joke I hear often from my Catholic friends.

Catholic guilt is real, LOL. I do have OCD so that makes me get fixated on one thing or another, which doesn’t help my religion problems,

 

[FaithT]

Well. It may come down to how important of a matter the LCMS church feels that evolution is. Many churches have a variety of positions, and people don't view it as a salvation issue and it's just not particularly important.

But if you have a pastor that routinely preaches on the subject, and you don't agree with what the pastor says, then I'm not sure what could be done about that. Some protestant churches care about that subject, others do not. Some are against it, some are for it etc.

And oftentimes I would think it would be hard to agree 100% on complicated topics with everyone. So it may depend on how important that topic is to you, or to the church.

They never preach about it.

 

[J_B_]

Well. It may come down to how important of a matter the LCMS church feels that evolution is. Many churches have a variety of positions, and people don't view it as a salvation issue and it's just not particularly important.

Yep. I've never felt it was that important of an issue to the LCMS.

But if you have a pastor that routinely preaches on the subject, and you don't agree with what the pastor says, then I'm not sure what could be done about that. Some protestant churches care about that subject, others do not. Some are against it, some are for it etc.

In my experience with the LCMS it's never the pastor who brings it up. It's always a question from a lay person. My brother-in-law is an LCMS pastor, and he once asked me (with a little frustration) if I had any suggestions on how to deal with questions about evolution. How do you bring the discussion back to where it needs to be? To Christ?

And oftentimes I would think it would be hard to agree 100% on complicated topics with everyone. So it may depend on how important that topic is to you, or to the church.

Again, yep. I agree.

 

[J_B_]

Catholic guilt is real, LOL. I do have OCD so that makes me get fixated on one thing or another, which doesn’t help my religion problems,

I typically do my best to ignore the evolution trainwreck, but you got me talking. So, if you want to discuss it, I'm here.

 

[FaithT]

I typically do my best to ignore the evolution trainwreck, but you got me talking. So, if you want to discuss it, I'm here.

Yeah, i do want to talk about it.

 

[J_B_]

Yeah, i do want to talk about it.

Where do you want to begin?

 

[FaithT]

Where we left off, I guess. I just feel like I’m the only one in my church, other than my husband(, who‘s been going with me lately,) who believes in evolution. Everybody I’ve spoken to and there have been several people, seem to follow the teaching of the church, which is no evolution. Or at least no macroevolution. And I feel out of place there, but aside from these details, this church seems like the best option I have.
I just want to abide by my church‘s teachings but every week it’s something else. Dinosaurs, brids, you name it.

 

[J_B_]

I just want to abide by my church‘s teachings but every week it’s something else. Dinosaurs, brids, you name it.

Who brings up these things?

 

[FaithT]

Who brings up these things?

Do you mean what makes me get upset by them? I a stumble on them on Answers in Genesis.

 

[J_B_]

Do you mean what makes me get upset by them? I a stumble on them on Answers in Genesis.

OK. So these things come up because you're reading about them online, not because someone at church brings it up to you. I just wanted to know if someone at your church was approaching you to discuss it.

What are you hoping for in the end, with respect to evolution?

 

[FaithT]

OK. So these things come up because you're reading about them online, not because someone at church brings it up to you. I just wanted to know if someone at your church was approaching you to discuss it.

What are you hoping for in the end, with respect to evolution?

Nobody at church has mentioned it. I’d like the LCMS to change its teaching but that isn’t going to happen. I’d like to learn more about.creationism and believe in it.

 

[FaithT]

Nobody at church has mentioned it. I’d like the LCMS to change its teaching but that isn’t going to happen. I’d like to learn more about.creationism and believe in it.

when I’ve talked to my pastor about it he keeps telling me that paleontologists are just guessing and that neither side knows for certain how things happened, neither side can be proven for certain, and that science changes every other day.

 

[FaithT]

Yes, that is essentially the position of the LCMS.

However, you're misusing the term "macroevolution". Macroevolution and microevolution as most creationists use them are not scientific terms, and the LCMS statement never references macroevolution. I'm pointing this out because what the LCMS statement does is clarify their disagreement in that they don't accept undirected speciation. They don't make a blanket statement that dismisses all of evolutionary biology, but specify their points of disagreement. I have good reason to question biology's position on UCA myself.

Many biologists would say that evolution doesn't stipulate undirected speciation, yet as many times as they have said it, the public perception remains that evolution says exactly that. That's why this conversation gets so messy.

Regardless, accepting the LCMS position on evolution is not a condition of membership. So why is this so difficult for you? I would bet there are other things you think or do that conflict with the LCMS position, whether it's speeding, jaywalking, drinking a little too much, saying "Jeez" when you're frustrated, or whatever it might be. Why focus on this one?

All of your posts seem focused on legalism - what can I do? what can't I do? - rather than the grace which makes you a forgiven child of God. I don't mean to make you feel guilty by saying that. Rather it pains me that these things seem to block you from the joy of knowing Christ.

"Catholic guilt" is a joke I hear often from my Catholic friends.

What’s UCA?

 

[J_B_]

I’d like the LCMS to change its teaching but that isn’t going to happen.

It's not so much that I want the LCMS to change it's position as I'd like it to be phrased a different way.

I’d like to learn more about creationism and believe in it.

I believe God created all that exists, that he creates and sustains life, and that he established the order of creation. But I disagree with significant portions of thought among the YEC, OEC, etc.

 

[J_B_]

What’s UCA?

UCA = "Universal Common Ancestor". It's also called LUCA, for "Last Universal Common Ancestor". It's a term for the DNA pool from which all currently existing life supposedly descended.

 

[FaithT]

Yes, that is essentially the position of the LCMS.

However, you're misusing the term "macroevolution". Macroevolution and microevolution as most creationists use them are not scientific terms, and the LCMS statement never references macroevolution. I'm pointing this out because what the LCMS statement does is clarify their disagreement in that they don't accept undirected speciation. They don't make a blanket statement that dismisses all of evolutionary biology, but specify their points of disagreement. I have good reason to question biology's position on UCA myself.

Many biologists would say that evolution doesn't stipulate undirected speciation, yet as many times as they have said it, the public perception remains that evolution says exactly that. That's why this conversation gets so messy.

Regardless, accepting the LCMS position on evolution is not a condition of membership. So why is this so difficult for you? I would bet there are other things you think or do that conflict with the LCMS position, whether it's speeding, jaywalking, drinking a little too much, saying "Jeez" when you're frustrated, or whatever it might be. Why focus on this one?

All of your posts seem focused on legalism - what can I do? what can't I do? - rather than the grace which makes you a forgiven child of God. I don't mean to make you feel guilty by saying that. Rather it pains me that these things seem to block you from the joy of knowing Christ.

"Catholic guilt" is a joke I hear often from my Catholic friends.

It's not so much that I want the LCMS to change it's position as I'd like it to be phrased a different way.



I believe God created all that exists, that he creates and sustains life, and that he established the order of creation. But I disagree with significant portions of thought among the YEC, OEC, etc.

How would you like it phrased?
What denomination are you?
And how old do you think the universe is?

 

[J_B_]

How would you like it phrased?

I haven't specifically written a position statement. It seems to me the fundamental concern in the LCMS statement is the inspiration and infallibility of Scripture. But that gets lost in the noise, so I'd double down on emphasizing that aspect.

Personally, I would also want to emphasize Original Sin, but that may be too much. If you try to say too much, the message can get muddy.

What denomination are you?

I'm LCMS. My family attended a United Methodist church when I was young, but my father moved us to the LCMS when I was 12, and I've been there ever since.

And how old do you think the universe is?

I see that as a separate topic for astronomy & geology, not biology. There is some overlap, but evolution, if it occurs, would also occur in a young universe. So, even if a young universe were proven, that wouldn't disprove evolution. I haven't spent much time on the age of the universe, so I don't have a good answer for you.

Is this connected to the 6 days of creation (vs. billions of years), the Biblical genealogy (vs. more billions of years), or both?

 

[FaithT]

I haven't specifically written a position statement. It seems to me the fundamental concern in the LCMS statement is the inspiration and infallibility of Scripture. But that gets lost in the noise, so I'd double down on emphasizing that aspect.

Personally, I would also want to emphasize Original Sin, but that may be too much. If you try to say too much, the message can get muddy.



I'm LCMS. My family attended a United Methodist church when I was young, but my father moved us to the LCMS when I was 12, and I've been there ever since.



I see that as a separate topic for astronomy & geology, not biology. There is some overlap, but evolution, if it occurs, would also occur in a young universe. So, even if a young universe were proven, that wouldn't disprove evolution. I haven't spent much time on the age of the universe, so I don't have a good answer for you.

Is this connected to the 6 days of creation (vs. billions of years), the Biblical genealogy (vs. more billions of years), or both?

Both