lcms and wels diffs?

Studeclunker

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Well... I suppose in that I have to agree with you, Revrand. With the possible exception that WELS would feel good about LCMS going bankrupt. Do you honestly think they would? I can tell you the majority of WELS members would be very saddened by such a thing. I've never met a WELS Layman or Pastor who would celebrate at the fall of the LCMS.
 
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DaRev

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Well... I suppose in that I have to agree with you, Revrand. With the possible exception that WELS would feel good about LCMS going bankrupt. Do you honestly think they would? I can tell you the majority of WELS members would be very saddened by such a thing. I've never met a WELS Layman or Pastor who would celebrate at the fall of the LCMS.

I've met a couple on here.
 
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twin.spin

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This paints the WELS as being seperatist, something that many have accused them of. It just seems to make more sense to me for the two main Confessional Lutheran church bodies to dialogue together. What did Jesus say, "If your brother repents, forgive him." How forgiving is the WELS willing to be? From what you have written here, not very.

I guess from certian perspective, it could be. However...
The WELS is part of the Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Conference.

The WELS is actually a merger of the Wisconsin, Minnesota, Michigan, and Nebraska Lutheran Churchs

WELS and ELS are in fellowship
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

Being that I don't want to infringe on copyright ... I would encourage you to read "Theses on church fellowship" ........ wels.net/about-wels/doctrinal-statements/church-fellowship


In part you would read that:
in 1872
  • A confessionally sound federation of Lutheran synods was founded, the member synods were fully agreed on the fellowship principles that had brought them together. All held that complete confessional unity is the necessary scriptural basis for all practice of church fellowship, that is, for pulpit, altar, and prayer fellowship.
in 1930
  • LCMS held meetings with the American Lutheran Church, a merger of Lutheran synods not in doctrinal agreement and not in fellowship with the 1872 Synodical Conference... these meetings included joint prayer among all participants.
in 1944
  • Objections to this fellowship practice were answered by a Missouri Synod resolution
In 1960
  • the LCMS submitted their "Theology of Fellowship" to the Joint Union Committees in response to the 2 year Joint meetings (57-59)
  • Those meeting produces the result that LCMS were not ready to acknowledge:
"the scriptural correctness of the basic point of our Wisconsin Synod presentation . . . that all joint expressions and demonstrations of a common Christian faith—call them church fellowship or by any other term—are essentially one, that they involve a unit concept, and that they are therefore all [also prayer] governed by one set of principles" (Proceedings, 1959, p. 165).

in 1961
  • The doctrine of church fellowship became the primary divisive issue that resulted Wisconsin Synod resolution suspending fellowship with the Missouri Synod.
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

DaRev,
Has there been any revisiting to the "Theology of Fellowship" that would indicate to WELS that the convictions of fellowship has changed in LCMS, enough to warrant expectations of any serious changes?
 
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Studeclunker

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I've met a couple on here.

I'm not one of them, nor is anyone I've heard from here. The hope is for the reformation of the LCMS from it's current troubles. However, I must admit, that hope seems faint sometimes... Liberals don't give ground without a bloodletting. They hold entire denominaitons hostage with this threat. I don't envy the fight ahead of you and the others working to bring the LCMS back into line. I hope and pray you succeed.:crossrc:
 
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twin.spin

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At this time, the Seminary was in Springfield IL, not in Ft. Wayne. The Seminary moved to Ft. Wayne in 1976 after having been in Springfield for 101 years.



When and where did this happen? I don't remember hearing about being taught the historical critical method at the Fort.

Our current President plans on making some changes that were mandated from the convention as well as severing ties with organizations we are working with. Looks like right now that the ELCA is pulling out of the malaria project due to lack of funds on their part.

I have been LCMS for 30+ years and accompanied my husband to Seminary. The only church body that we have been in fellowship during these years has been the AALC and that just happened 3 years ago.

With the current views and doctrines in the ELCA, it become less likely that any improvement in relation with the ELCA will be made. The ELCA has moved so far from us, that it won't happen.

I do hope that you understand that most of my family historically has been LCMS going back to 1890's. Both of my parents were baptized as infants and married in the LCMS. So don't think that I have it in for the LCMS.

DaRev makes valid points about the what used to be and now the issue of the role of women. I don't expect any resolution either.

Blessings,
Twin
 
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DaRev

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DaRev,
Has there been any revisiting to the "Theology of Fellowship" that would indicate to WELS that the convictions of fellowship has changed in LCMS, enough to warrant expectations of any serious changes?

As I said before, the LCMS has historically held to the same fellowship principals since its inception. At one time the WELS was OK enough with it to delcare full fellowship. After 1960, it wasn't OK anymore. The SELC had no problem with it, but the WELS and ELS did. It seems to me that the one that would have to revisit their convictions of fellowship would be the WELS, IMO.
 
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seajoy

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No one has actually come out and said so, but the ill feelings towards the LCMS by some are hard to ignore.

Ill feelings and wishing someone to go bankrupt are 2 different things.
I know you know I have no ill feelings towards the LCMS. At least I hope you know this.
 
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Studeclunker

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No one has actually come out and said so, but the ill feelings towards the LCMS by some are hard to ignore.

With the shennanigans the Synod has pulled in the last few years a few ill feelings are inescapable! I've even heard such things expressed by people who remained in the LCMS. One can be angry about programmes like Ablaze, Beyond Walther, ad nauseum, without wishing the total collapse of the Synod. Sometimes anger about the current state of things expresses affection, not aversion. Especially when the situation has been going on for some time without any real opposition or correction.

This irritation, or anger, can also be exacerbated by impotency, or the inability to do anything about the situation.
 
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DaRev

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With the shennanigans the Synod has pulled in the last few years a few ill feelings are inescapable! I've even heard such things expressed by people who remained in the LCMS. One can be angry about programmes like Ablaze, Beyond Walther, ad nauseum, without wishing the total collapse of the Synod. Sometimes anger about the current state of things expresses affection, not aversion. Especially when the situation has been going on for some time without any real opposition or correction.

This irritation, or anger, can also be exacerbated by impotency, or the inability to do anything about the situation.

And so the choice of many is to leave the synod and stand outside and throw stones. Any change takes time. Those who are impatient will take their toys and go home. Those who really what to make things better stay the course with the understanding that it won't be quick and it won't be easy. There will be setbacks. We had a nine year set back, but we've moved beyond that now (even though I was told by people on here that would never happen - well guess what, it did).

All I can tell you folks is that if you don't want to be part of the solution, then stay <edit> out of the way and keep your opinions to yourselves. You're not helping at all.
 
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seajoy

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All I can tell you folks is that if you don't want to be part of the solution, then stay the hell out of the way and keep your opinions to yourselves. You're not helping at all.

Since you didn't respond to when I said I don't have any ill feelings against the LCMS - I will presume you mean any WELS person in this statement. :(

Maybe I have butted in where I shouldn't, in LCMS discussions. But I certainly have no ill will against the synod. In truth, I don't like any discussions about the LCMS and WELS not getting along. I think we have much bigger fish to fry here on this forum.
 
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Studeclunker

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And who does it concern?

LOL, you have to ask, Rad?:whistle: He's talking about you and me! It seems the Revrand thinks that I should have been a loyal parisioner and stayed with the Congregation in Redding. It seems I should have put up with the Ablaze programme and lousy imitations of reformed/Pentecostal music performances during services. I should, I guess, have put up with empty, weak, feel-good sermons that had nothing at all to do with Lutheran doctrine and theology. Not to mention "Creative Worship".:aarh: What good would it have done to complain to the district office when they encourage this kind of thing? Look what a clown our District President has proved to be? So, my leaving and complaining about how the Synod has gone to Hell in a handbasket is, I suppose, not cool. Give... me... a... break!:comeon: I suppose it would have been better to drive to Eureka, or possibly Ferndale (a hundred-fifty miles) or maybe to Chico (around a hundred miles ONE WAY) instead?

I find that if one doesn't do laundry for long periods of time it produces a bad odour. The LCMS didn't properly do their dirty laundry and thirty years is too long to wait. The odour here in Redding was suffocating.

Am I bitter about this? You bet! Am I going to shut up about it? Don't hold your breath!;)
 
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