Laws For The Gentiles

[visionary]

That is not what I was taught. I was taught that ther were acctually two segregated congregations in Rome. Peter was involved with the Jewish one (and its rebellion in Rome is recorded in history). The other, Gentile congregation is the one which Paul wrote to. The congregations did not meld together until later in history.

There was no meld.. just persecution when the Roman one got into power.

 

[Steve Petersen]

That is not what I was taught. I was taught that ther were acctually two segregated congregations in Rome. Peter was involved with the Jewish one (and its rebellion in Rome is recorded in history). The other, Gentile congregation is the one which Paul wrote to. The congregations did not meld together until later in history.

Give this book a read. I would be interested in your take.

https://books.google.com/books/abou...CEC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button

 

[ralliann]

That is not what I was taught. I was taught that ther were acctually two segregated congregations in Rome. Peter was involved with the Jewish one (and its rebellion in Rome is recorded in history). The other, Gentile congregation is the one which Paul wrote to. The congregations did not meld together until later in history.

Where does this come from? I would like to read or hear it.

 

[ralliann]

There was no meld.. just persecution when the Roman one got into power.

Christians were persecuted, so how do you say this?

 

[ralliann]

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The Jewish converts would have probably continued esteeming these days whereas the Gentile converts would probably not, especially since they were not commanded by YHWH to be kept. However, all men knew the Sabbath was commanded and so there was no question about its observance as seen in such verses as Acts 18:4 and Acts 13:42-44; 14:1.

Acts 15:20-21 - "But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day."​

Concerning the Sabbath it is a violation for Gentiles to keep the Sabbath as does a Jew. only a full convert is allowed, which would make one a Jew in every respect. Jewish Sanhedrin 58b​

 

[visionary]

Christians were persecuted, so how do you say this?

start with lions, fires, ... read the "book of martyrs."

 

[gadar perets]

Concerning the Sabbath it is a violation for Gentiles to keep the Sabbath as does a Jew. only a full convert is allowed, which would make one a Jew in every respect. Jewish Sanhedrin 58b​

If you want to live by the man made rules of the Jews, then this may be true. However, those in Messiah Yeshua are to live by his rules and his Father YHWH's rules. Neither of them made such a ridiculous rule.

Let's examine that foolish rule.

And Reish Lakish says: A gentile who observed Shabbat is liable to receive the death penalty, as it is stated: “And day and night shall not cease”(Genesis 8:23), which literally means: And day and night they shall not rest. This is interpreted homiletically to mean that the descendants of Noah may not take a day of rest. And the Master said (57a) that their prohibition is their death penalty, i.e., the punishment for any prohibition with regard to descendants of Noah is execution. Ravina says: If a descendant of Noah observes a day of rest on any day of the week, even one not set aside for religious worship, e.g., on a Monday, he is liable.
​

Notice this rule is established from Genesis 8:23 (22 in our Bibles);

Gen 8:21 And YHWH smelled a sweet savour; and YHWH said in His heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Gen 8:22 While the earth remains, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.
​

In other words, as long as the things in verse 22 remain, YHWH will not do the things in verse 21 again. Since YHWH will never destroy every living thing again, then the things in verse 22 will never cease. Do you see anything there saying the descendants of Noah may not take a day of rest?

Also, note what Ravina said. Descendants of Noah cannot rest on Sunday or any other day of the week. They must work seven days a week. This is absolute lunacy which I will never submit to. It is exactly the opposite of what YHWH inspired Isaiah to write;

Isaiah 56:4-7 For thus says YHWH unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to YHWH, to serve Him, and to love the name of YHWH, to be His servants, every one that keeps the sabbath from polluting it, and takes hold of my covenant;
Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.​

Eunuchs and strangers are Noah's descendants.

 

[visionary]

​

Concerning the Sabbath it is a violation for Gentiles to keep the Sabbath as does a Jew. only a full convert is allowed, which would make one a Jew in every respect. Jewish Sanhedrin 58b​

Concerning the Lord and His opinion about this "violation"... NOT..

 

[Meowzltov]

Where does this come from? I would like to read or hear it.

Honestly, i don't know. I've read so extensively... This is an obscure position. Let me give it to you as best as I can piece it together.

To begin with, it is believed that the church at Rome was founded by believers who first heard the gospel in Jerusalem at Pentecost, listening to Peter preach after he was filled with the Holy Spirit.

There is a famous document where a historian during Claudius' reign named Suetonius writes, “Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome.”

There are two interpretations most probable for this. One is that there was a conflict between Jews and Christians in Rome, and the Jews got kicked out. The other possibility is that this uprising occurred during the time when Christians WERE mostly Jews, Messianic Jews, and they caused problems for the Romans, and so they got kicked out. This seems to be supported by Scripture.

Acts 18:2 “And he (Paul) found a certain Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently arrived from Italy with Priscilla his wife, on account of Claudius commanding all the Jews to leave Rome.”

So it would seem that the Church as it was originally founded in Rome was a Messianic Jewish Church, meaning full of Jewish believers.

It is believed that Peter had a hand in this for several reasons.

1. Acts 12:17 states that Peter "left for another place."
2. 1 Peter is written from "Babylon," first century Christian slang for the city of Rome, the heart of pagan hedonistic idolatry.
3. ECF referencing Peter in Rome. For example, Iranaeus, in "Against Heresies" states “Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, laying the foundations of the Church.”

The thing about Paul, is that by the time he wrote to the church at Rome, and by the time he actually got to Rome, a church already existed there.

After Claudius died, many of the Roman Jews that had been exiled did return, such as Aquila and Priscilla. But they would have found a very different church, with a Gentile majority and Gentile leadership. This was the Church that Paul wrote to.

It is thought that there was a LOT of ethnic tension in this Church -- in no other letter does Paul mention "Gentile" or "circumcision" as often. He seems to want to address the arrogance the church, looking down on unbelieving Jews as if they were better. But you have to wonder if some of the ethnic tension also existed between them and some of the minority Jewish believers. Was this the seeds of the eventual replacement of the Messianic Jewish Church by the Gentile Church? All this is speculative.

Anyhow, that's how I remember it, and I've tried to google the documents that I remember being connected to it. At my age, I just no longer remember every book I've read. I wish I could provide a better citation for you.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Honestly, i don't know. I've read so extensively... This is an obscure position. Let me give it to you as best as I can piece it together.

To begin with, it is believed that the church at Rome was founded by believers who first heard the gospel in Jerusalem at Pentecost, listening to Peter preach after he was filled with the Holy Spirit.

There is a famous document where a historian during Claudius' reign named Suetonius writes, “Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome.”

There are two interpretations most probable for this. One is that there was a conflict between Jews and Christians in Rome, and the Jews got kicked out. The other possibility is that this uprising occurred during the time when Christians WERE mostly Jews, Messianic Jews, and they caused problems for the Romans, and so they got kicked out. This seems to be supported by Scripture.

Acts 18:2 “And he (Paul) found a certain Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently arrived from Italy with Priscilla his wife, on account of Claudius commanding all the Jews to leave Rome.”

So it would seem that the Church as it was originally founded in Rome was a Messianic Jewish Church, meaning full of Jewish believers.

It is believed that Peter had a hand in this for several reasons.

1. Acts 12:17 states that Peter "left for another place."
2. 1 Peter is written from "Babylon," first century Christian slang for the city of Rome, the heart of pagan hedonistic idolatry.
3. ECF referencing Peter in Rome. For example, Iranaeus, in "Against Heresies" states “Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, laying the foundations of the Church.”

The thing about Paul, is that by the time he wrote to the church at Rome, and by the time he actually got to Rome, a church already existed there.

After Claudius died, many of the Roman Jews that had been exiled did return, such as Aquila and Priscilla. But they would have found a very different church, with a Gentile majority and Gentile leadership. This was the Church that Paul wrote to.

It is thought that there was a LOT of ethnic tension in this Church -- in no other letter does Paul mention "Gentile" or "circumcision" as often. He seems to want to address the arrogance the church, looking down on unbelieving Jews as if they were better. But you have to wonder if some of the ethnic tension also existed between them and some of the minority Jewish believers.

Anyhow, that's how I remember it, and I've tried to google the documents that I remember being connected to it. At my age, I just no longer remember every book I've read. I wish I could provide a better citation for you.

Try reading Avodah Zarah in the Mishnah alongside Romans 14. I think you will see the congruences.

 

[Meowzltov]

Try reading Avodah Zarah in the Mishnah alongside Romans 14. I think you will see the congruences.

Try quoting the relevant portions, since this is a forum.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Try quoting the relevant portions, since this is a forum.

Days:

Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

MISHNA I.: Three days before the festivals 1 of the heathens it is forbidden to have any business with them. One must not lend them anything (which can be useful to them) nor borrow such from them. And the same is the case with cash money, even to pay or to receive payment is forbidden. R. Jehuda, however, maintains: To receive payment is allowed, because it is a displeasure to the payers. And he was answered: Although it is now a displeasure, it pleases them, in the future.
MISHNA. II.: R. Ismael said: Three days before and three days after it is prohibited. The sages, however, say: Before the festivals, but not after them.
MISHNA III.: The following are the festivals of the heathens: Kalends, Saturnalia, kratsin. The accession of their kings upon the throne, their birthday, and the day of their death. So R. Mair. The sages, however, maintain that only such a death on which burning (dresses) is used, is conjoined with worshipping the idols. But in such on which it is not used, there is no .idolatry. All, however, agree concerning the following days: That of shaving his beard and hair, that in which he lauds, that on which he was released from prison, and that on which is celebrated a marriage of his son that the prohibition concerns only one day, and the only one man engaged in this affair.​

​

 

[Steve Petersen]

Foods:

Romans 14:1 but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats;

Avodah Zarah 2:3 These things that belong to Gentiles are forbidden, and it is forbidden to have any benefit at all from them: wine or vinegar of Gentiles that at first was wine...2:5 cheese, 2:6 milk, things pickled with vinegar,​

 

[gadar perets]

Days:

Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

MISHNA I.: Three days before the festivals 1 of the heathens it is forbidden to have any business with them. One must not lend them anything (which can be useful to them) nor borrow such from them. And the same is the case with cash money, even to pay or to receive payment is forbidden. R. Jehuda, however, maintains: To receive payment is allowed, because it is a displeasure to the payers. And he was answered: Although it is now a displeasure, it pleases them, in the future.
MISHNA. II.: R. Ismael said: Three days before and three days after it is prohibited. The sages, however, say: Before the festivals, but not after them.
MISHNA III.: The following are the festivals of the heathens: Kalends, Saturnalia, kratsin. The accession of their kings upon the throne, their birthday, and the day of their death. So R. Mair. The sages, however, maintain that only such a death on which burning (dresses) is used, is conjoined with worshipping the idols. But in such on which it is not used, there is no .idolatry. All, however, agree concerning the following days: That of shaving his beard and hair, that in which he lauds, that on which he was released from prison, and that on which is celebrated a marriage of his son that the prohibition concerns only one day, and the only one man engaged in this affair.​

More nonsensical man made laws that believers in Yeshua need not obey. They can't even agree whether they should be observed both before and after their festivals.

 

[Meowzltov]

Days:

Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

MISHNA I.: Three days before the festivals 1 of the heathens it is forbidden to have any business with them. One must not lend them anything (which can be useful to them) nor borrow such from them. And the same is the case with cash money, even to pay or to receive payment is forbidden. R. Jehuda, however, maintains: To receive payment is allowed, because it is a displeasure to the payers. And he was answered: Although it is now a displeasure, it pleases them, in the future.
MISHNA. II.: R. Ismael said: Three days before and three days after it is prohibited. The sages, however, say: Before the festivals, but not after them.
MISHNA III.: The following are the festivals of the heathens: Kalends, Saturnalia, kratsin. The accession of their kings upon the throne, their birthday, and the day of their death. So R. Mair. The sages, however, maintain that only such a death on which burning (dresses) is used, is conjoined with worshipping the idols. But in such on which it is not used, there is no .idolatry. All, however, agree concerning the following days: That of shaving his beard and hair, that in which he lauds, that on which he was released from prison, and that on which is celebrated a marriage of his son that the prohibition concerns only one day, and the only one man engaged in this affair.​

​

Hi Steve. This is interesting stuff. However, I don't see how it clarifies whether the church in Rome was Jewish or Gentile or combined when Paul wrote to it.

 

[Meowzltov]

More nonsensical man made laws that believers in Yeshua need not obey. They can't even agree whether they should be observed both before and after their festivals.

They are DISCUSSING it. You have to discuss it before you can come to an agreement. The point is to not engage in avodah zarah. The reality is that it takes tradition in order to have any communal cohesion on the matter, and tradition has to be worked out before it is settled.

 

[gadar perets]

They are DISCUSSING it. You have to discuss it before you can come to an agreement. The point is to not engage in avodah zarah. The reality is that it takes tradition in order to have any communal cohesion on the matter, and tradition has to be worked out before it is settled.

So was it ever "settled"? Is it official that you can't do business with a Gentile three days before or after one of their festivals? Does anything in the Talmud ever get "settled"? Not that it matters since they are man made rules that put an undo burden upon the Jewish people which is why Yeshua rebuked them for it in the first place.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Hi Steve. This is interesting stuff. However, I don't see how it clarifies whether the church in Rome was Jewish or Gentile or combined when Paul wrote to it.

If these were entirely Gentile congregations, none of this would matter. They must have been combined.

 

[Meowzltov]

If these were entirely Gentile congregations, none of this would matter. They must have been combined.

I never said entirely. Overwhelmingly, yes. But there had to have been some Jews, since after the exile was lifted some returned to Rome.

 

[Meowzltov]

So was it ever "settled"? Is it official that you can't do business with a Gentile three days before or after one of their festivals? Does anything in the Talmud ever get "settled"? Not that it matters since they are man made rules that put an undo burden upon the Jewish people which is why Yeshua rebuked them for it in the first place.

Go to chabad.org and use the ask a rabbi feature.