Laws For The Gentiles

[Hidden In Him]

Greetings all, in Christ.

It's about time I got back to this. While I'm sure the answers to these questions have been regurgitated dozens of times now on this Forum, let me ask for clear and concise answers now nonetheless: What are the arguments that explain Romans 14:5 and Acts 15:20 in light of the view some Messianics hold that the Gentile believers were being implicitly urged to keep the sabbaths and holy days? (for those who hold to this position).

Referring me to a specific post in a specific thread is acceptable, but again, I am not looking to read a novel. I want concise, straight to the point answers to start with. Additional support with further text proofs are certainly welcome afterwards, but lead with a clear answer to start.

Special thanks to anyone who takes the time to respond in advance.

In Christ,
Hidden

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Follow Jesus.

 

[visionary]

Greetings all, in Christ.

It's about time I got back to this. While I'm sure the answers to these questions have been regurgitated dozens of times now on this Forum, let me ask for clear and concise answers now nonetheless: What are the arguments that explain Romans 14:5 and Acts 15:20 in light of the view some Messianics hold that the Gentile believers were being implicitly urged to keep the sabbaths and holy days? (for those who hold to this position).

Referring me to a specific post in a specific thread is acceptable, but again, I am not looking to read a novel. I want concise, straight to the point answers to start with. Additional support with further text proofs are certainly welcome afterwards, but lead with a clear answer to start.

Special thanks to anyone who takes the time to respond in advance.

In Christ,
Hidden

Are we to be part of the saints... by the way I am a gentile...Here are they [the saints] that keep the commandments and have the faith of Yeshua.

 

[Heber Book List]

You can't 'do' theology without debate. Asking in these fora will produce a whole myriad of views, including many from Christian CF Members hopping over here.

I'm not sure where you are wanting to go with this but the current SOP now prohibits some discussion / debate on the matter., as in the excerpts below. If you are not going down this route, please ignore this post

We believe:

• Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles are equal in Messiah on this forum and are permitted to observe Torah without condemnation.
• MJs and MGs keep Torah for the love of G-d and to practice sanctified living, not for salvation.

>>>These beliefs must be respected by all posters<<<
Posts against these beliefs, or with the following content, will be actioned by staff.

Non-negotiable points:

• No anti-Torah theology. i.e. No posts accusing or debating that Messianic Jews or Gentiles are under the law, re-erecting the wall of partition, Torah has been made invalid for today, or Messianic Jews or Gentiles should not keep the commandments in Torah that apply to them. It's not permitted to tell members to keep the Universal (Noachide) laws or not to keep Shabbat.

 

[Hidden In Him]

You can't 'do' theology without debate. Asking in these fora will produce a whole myriad of views, including many from Christian CF Members hopping over here.

I'm not sure where you are wanting to go with this but the current SOP now prohibits some discussion / debate on the matter., as in the excerpts below. If you are not going down this route, please ignore this post

We believe:

• Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles are equal in Messiah on this forum and are permitted to observe Torah without condemnation.
• MJs and MGs keep Torah for the love of G-d and to practice sanctified living, not for salvation.

>>>These beliefs must be respected by all posters<<<
Posts against these beliefs, or with the following content, will be actioned by staff.

Non-negotiable points:

• No anti-Torah theology. i.e. No posts accusing or debating that Messianic Jews or Gentiles are under the law, re-erecting the wall of partition, Torah has been made invalid for today, or Messianic Jews or Gentiles should not keep the commandments in Torah that apply to them. It's not permitted to tell members to keep the Universal (Noachide) laws or not to keep Shabbat.

I'm simply wanting to know what the defense is. If this is not the forum, maybe someone can direct me to it. I was also hoping to know what the consensus was amongst most Messianics on these verses.

Simply wanting information.

 

[Heber Book List]

I'm simply wanting to know what the defense is. If this is not the forum, maybe someone can direct me to it. I was also hoping to know what the consensus was amongst most Messianics on these verses.

Simply wanting information.

What do you mean by 'defence'?

 

[gadar perets]

What are the arguments that explain Romans 14:5 and Acts 15:20 in light of the view some Messianics hold that the Gentile believers were being implicitly urged to keep the sabbaths and holy days?

Here is my understanding;

Romans 14:5 - "One man esteems one day above another: another esteems every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."​

First, the word "alike" is in italics because it is not in the Greek. There is nothing wrong with esteeming every day, after all, YHWH made them all. If we choose to worship Him seven days a week, so be it and halleluYah! However, that does not change the fact that as we worship Him every day we must also rest from labor on one day, the 7th day Sabbath. It is a mistake to read the Sabbath into this verse. Nowhere is the Sabbath mentioned. Nor can we read any of YHWH's annual sabbaths or feast days into this verse. There were many other "days" that the Jews highly esteemed besides the Sabbath and feasts. For example, most Jews at that time fasted twice a week (Luke 18:12 and Talmudic writings). The Jews also kept fast days throughout the year as mentioned in Zechariah 8:19. Then there was the Feast of Purim (Esther 9:28), and the Feast of Dedication or Hanukkah (John 10:22).

The Jewish converts would have probably continued esteeming these days whereas the Gentile converts would probably not, especially since they were not commanded by YHWH to be kept. However, all men knew the Sabbath was commanded and so there was no question about its observance as seen in such verses as Acts 18:4 and Acts 13:42-44; 14:1.

Acts 15:20-21 - "But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day."
​

First, note that Christians teach the law is abolished, yet here we see the Gentile converts were going to being told to keep certain OT laws, some seemingly rather trivial (abstaining from things strangled). Note also that the they will not be told to not murder, steal, commit adultery, lie, etc. Does that mean they can do those things? No. In context, verse 21 is very important in that the word "For" joins the two verses together and provides the reason why only four laws were mentioned. "For" the new Gentile converts would hear Moses read every Sabbath Day and eventually learn the rest of the law. The four things that were forbidden were things the Gentiles were doing as part of their pagan lifestyle and they were appalling to Jews. In order to promote fellowship between Gentile and Jewish converts, having the Gentiles immediately abstain from those things was necessary.

Debating this subject in this forum is not permitted, but if you have further questions, feel free to PM me.

Shalom

 

[Heber Book List]

Here is my understanding;

Romans 14:5 - "One man esteems one day above another: another esteems every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."​

First, the word "alike" is in italics because it is not in the Greek. There is nothing wrong with esteeming every day, after all, YHWH made them all. If we choose to worship Him seven days a week, so be it and halleluYah! However, that does not change the fact that as we worship Him every day we must also rest from labor on one day, the 7th day Sabbath. It is a mistake to read the Sabbath into this verse. Nowhere is the Sabbath mentioned. Nor can we read any of YHWH's annual sabbaths or feast days into this verse. There were many other "days" that the Jews highly esteemed besides the Sabbath and feasts. For example, most Jews at that time fasted twice a week (Luke 18:12 and Talmudic writings). The Jews also kept fast days throughout the year as mentioned in Zechariah 8:19. Then there was the Feast of Purim (Esther 9:28), and the Feast of Dedication or Hanukkah (John 10:22).

The Jewish converts would have probably continued esteeming these days whereas the Gentile converts would probably not, especially since they were not commanded by YHWH to be kept. However, all men knew the Sabbath was commanded and so there was no question about its observance as seen in such verses as Acts 18:4 and Acts 13:42-44; 14:1.

Acts 15:20-21 - "But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day."
​

First, note that Christians teach the law is abolished, yet here we see the Gentile converts were going to being told to keep certain OT laws, some seemingly rather trivial (abstaining from things strangled). Note also that the they will not be told to not murder, steal, commit adultery, lie, etc. Does that mean they can do those things? No. In context, verse 21 is very important in that the word "For" joins the two verses together and provides the reason why only four laws were mentioned. "For" the new Gentile converts would hear Moses read every Sabbath Day and eventually learn the rest of the law. The four things that were forbidden were things the Gentiles were doing as part of their pagan lifestyle and they were appalling to Jews. In order to promote fellowship between Gentile and Jewish converts, having the Gentiles immediately abstain from those things was necessary.

Debating this subject in this forum is not permitted, but if you have further questions, feel free to PM me.

Shalom

The conjunction 'For' is, almost every time, in place of 'because' - in the above situation it makes a better join in the text and helps with the whole context in which the letter was to be understood.

 

[Dkh587]

It’s just weird to me that people skip right over the teachings of Jesus laid out in 4 separate books, and instead cherry pick sentences from Paul’s letters to teach erroneous doctrines.

Jesus is the Messiah, not Paul. We must interpret Paul in light of what the Messiah taught, and not the other way around.

Jesus didn’t teach 1 set of commands for his Israelite followers and another set of commands for the Gentiles who followed him. He taught the same thing to both groups of people.

 

[Heber Book List]

It’s just weird to me that people skip right over the teachings of Jesus laid out in 4 separate books, and instead cherry pick sentences from Paul’s letters to teach erroneous doctrines.

Jesus is the Messiah, not Paul. We must interpret Paul in light of what the Messiah taught, and not the other way around.

Jesus didn’t teach 1 set of commands for his Israelite followers and another set of commands for the Gentiles who followed him. He taught the same thing to both groups of people.

Probably because Paul wrote first - the others followed on from him. On this forum ALL scripture has equal weight. See the SOP thread.

 

[JohnC2]

What if the defense of the desire for many Christians to seek their "Jewish roots" is in fact pointing towards the "Grafting back into the vine" prophesied in many places....

Gentile Christians will be grafted back into the Root of Israel - not the other way around.

If we accept The Shema as instruction to Hear God today and Love God today - we recognize that God is preparing us today for what will happen in the future....

And just like twice before - God was trying to prepare The Jews to leave Israel - God seems to be trying to prepare Christians to rejoin The Jews....

This doesn't invalidate God's word - in fact it demonstrates His care for us....

 

[Dkh587]

The conjunction 'For' is, almost every time, in place of 'because' - in the above situation it makes a better join in the text and helps with the whole context in which the letter was to be understood.

I once heard someone say “if you see ‘therefore’ in the scriptures, read what’s in front of it to see what it’s there for”

Probably because Paul wrote first - the others followed on from him. On this forum ALL scripture has equal weight. See the SOP thread.

I definitely agree that Scripture has equal weight, but we gotta Keep it in context, particularly Paul’s letters, considering Peter warned us about them being hard to understand and people twisting them to their destruction.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Here is my understanding;

Romans 14:5 - "One man esteems one day above another: another esteems every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."​

First, the word "alike" is in italics because it is not in the Greek. There is nothing wrong with esteeming every day, after all, YHWH made them all. If we choose to worship Him seven days a week, so be it and halleluYah! However, that does not change the fact that as we worship Him every day we must also rest from labor on one day, the 7th day Sabbath. It is a mistake to read the Sabbath into this verse. Nowhere is the Sabbath mentioned. Nor can we read any of YHWH's annual sabbaths or feast days into this verse. There were many other "days" that the Jews highly esteemed besides the Sabbath and feasts. For example, most Jews at that time fasted twice a week (Luke 18:12 and Talmudic writings). The Jews also kept fast days throughout the year as mentioned in Zechariah 8:19. Then there was the Feast of Purim (Esther 9:28), and the Feast of Dedication or Hanukkah (John 10:22).

The Jewish converts would have probably continued esteeming these days whereas the Gentile converts would probably not, especially since they were not commanded by YHWH to be kept. However, all men knew the Sabbath was commanded and so there was no question about its observance as seen in such verses as Acts 18:4 and Acts 13:42-44; 14:1.

Acts 15:20-21 - "But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day."
​

First, note that Christians teach the law is abolished, yet here we see the Gentile converts were going to being told to keep certain OT laws, some seemingly rather trivial (abstaining from things strangled). Note also that the they will not be told to not murder, steal, commit adultery, lie, etc. Does that mean they can do those things? No. In context, verse 21 is very important in that the word "For" joins the two verses together and provides the reason why only four laws were mentioned. "For" the new Gentile converts would hear Moses read every Sabbath Day and eventually learn the rest of the law. The four things that were forbidden were things the Gentiles were doing as part of their pagan lifestyle and they were appalling to Jews. In order to promote fellowship between Gentile and Jewish converts, having the Gentiles immediately abstain from those things was necessary.

Thank you, gadar perets. Your response for Acts 15:20-21 is excellent. I also like your answer for Romans 15:4, although it opens up some doors for me theologically.

I truly wish there were a place to discuss this openly, but I would still nevertheless enjoy discussing it with you in private. I'll try and send you something later. Thanks for the courteous offer.

Blessings in Christ Jesus, and thank you again sincerely for taking the time to respond.

 

[tampasteve]

Edit
Others said it better than I could.

 

[gadar perets]

What if the defense of the desire for many Christians to seek their "Jewish roots" is in fact pointing towards the "Grafting back into the vine" prophesied in many places....

Gentile Christians will be grafted back into the Root of Israel - not the other way around.

If we accept The Shema as instruction to Hear God today and Love God today - we recognize that God is preparing us today for what will happen in the future....

And just like twice before - God was trying to prepare The Jews to leave Israel - God seems to be trying to prepare Christians to rejoin The Jews....

This doesn't invalidate God's word - in fact it demonstrates His care for us....

You make it sound like the grafting in is a future event. The moment a person receives Yeshua as Savior he is grafted in.

 

[Heber Book List]

I once heard someone say “if you see ‘therefore’ in the scriptures, read what’s in front of it to see what it’s there for”



I definitely agree that Scripture has equal weight, but we gotta Keep it in context, particularly Paul’s letters, considering Peter warned us about them being hard to understand and people twisting them to their destruction.

When studying the Bible, I always told my students to make connections across the whole book - that way Paul, and others, become understandable. There are very few parts of Paul's writings, if any, that are, today, hard to understand, although people who want to mis-understand him will do so, regardless. :-(

 

[JohnC2]

The other side of this is made clear with the parable of Lazarus and the rich man....

If a man won't hear Moses - neither will he hear one who has risen from the dead.... Rolling this forward - the implication is that we will have a hard time understanding Paul and even Jesus if we don't take Moses and the Prophets seriously... We end up with a jumbled incoherent mess...

But what do we have then? We have a broken covenant where the price of failure has been atoned.. But it's still a massive amount of wisdom given directly by God....

Think of Jesus teaching on prayer and fasting.... Sure - you don't strictly have to do it - it's not commanded.... But Jesus presents powerful object lessons that if you don't do it - you also won't be equipped to accomplish things you are commanded to accomplish...

In the same manner - circumcision of males may not be useful for earning salvation - but it's perhaps the single most effective prevention of cervical and uterine cancer in their wives.. Testimony "in the flesh" that God still grants great blessing to the ones who practice it...

 

[Steve Petersen]

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/romans-14-and-avodah-zarah.7677598/

Several years ago a friend of mine made a connection between Romans 14 and the Mishnah, Tractate Avodah Zarah (Idol Worship). I thought it was rather compelling. He may have picked up on this from Mark Nanos (The Mystery of Romans.)

Basic premise is this: Romans was written to non-Pauline congregations in Rome composed of believing Jews and believing Gentiles. These mixed congregations had problems caused by cultural differences between Jews and Gentiles, specifically in regards to food and days. These stem from Jewish custom and halakah that prohibited eating or drinking things that MAY have been offered to idols. Also part of the problem were Jewish restrictions on doing business with Gentiles at or near pagan holidays. All of these elements can be found in Romans 14 and Avodah Zarah.

Here is a pretty good treatment of the subject.

Here are citations from the Mishnah.

 

[ralliann]

Greetings all, in Christ.

It's about time I got back to this. While I'm sure the answers to these questions have been regurgitated dozens of times now on this Forum, let me ask for clear and concise answers now nonetheless: What are the arguments that explain Romans 14:5 and Acts 15:20 in light of the view some Messianics hold that the Gentile believers were being implicitly urged to keep the sabbaths and holy days? (for those who hold to this position).

Referring me to a specific post in a specific thread is acceptable, but again, I am not looking to read a novel. I want concise, straight to the point answers to start with. Additional support with further text proofs are certainly welcome afterwards, but lead with a clear answer to start.

Special thanks to anyone who takes the time to respond in advance.

In Christ,
Hidden

I believe these things have more to do with the cultural context, more than a doctrinal context. Rome legalized religions within its empire or it did not. Judaism was a recognized (legal) religion in the Empire. Judaism was given special exemption from idol ( or Emperor) worship. This exemption being extended to proselytes would have applied to God fearing Gentiles which attended synagogues.
Rome recognized the Judicial rule of the Sanhedrin. There were several sects of Judaism which were acceptable as " Judaisms" among the Jews. The Sadducees, and the Essenes held differing views concerning the calendar of Passover and therefore the count to Pentecost. The Apostolic ekklesia was concerned with maintaining their status as a Judaism along with their Gentile God fearers exemption from idols. The Apostolic assembly took care to give no offence that the ministry not be deemed an illegal religion...
2Co 6:3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:

 

[Open Heart]

Basic premise is this: Romans was written to non-Pauline congregations in Rome composed of believing Jews and believing Gentiles.

That is not what I was taught. I was taught that ther were acctually two segregated congregations in Rome. Peter was involved with the Jewish one (and its rebellion in Rome is recorded in history). The other, Gentile congregation is the one which Paul wrote to. The congregations did not meld together until later in history.